No Insurance after 90
 

Gallagher who has been getting my insurance for my RV-12 gave me a quote for the coming year with the note that next year they would only insure me for flight if I had another qualified pilot in the plane...no more solo. Global was the insurance company.

I am thinking of a sacrifice sale of the plane, my hangar, and all the other things you gather after flying for years. I feel as if I was hit a fatal blow. My
RV-12 has 350 hours on 912ULS, auto pilot, ADSB in, wheel pants, a few other extras. it was an early RV-12, serial 120185.

What would you do?

I would fly without insurance.

yup, fly without. My grandfather probably didn't have it for the last 10+ years of his flying days.

Don' let that stop you- do what you love. I hope I am still flying in another 40+ years.

I'd probably cry, then put the plane up for sale. I'm 73 and with Global, and I'm dreading what they're going to do to me later this year. I may well get priced out of the insurance market altogether. I have a hangar with Signature and they DEMAND that I carry a million in liability insurance. I'm not sure what they'll do if I just go without insurance. Evict me, I assume...

P.S. Congratulations on still flying at 89 y.o.!

Find a young pilot who needs a mentor - someone that could use the benefit of decades of flying experience. Fly with him and let him (or her) pay what they can pay to build time while keeping you in the air. Keep the plane, the hangar, and all the stuff - put a couch and comfy chair in the hangar, along with a fridge and coffee maker. Make your place the place to hang out and let the next generation grow into aviation!

Just a thought....

Paul

Go to the local flight school and advertise free flying - you should get some takers! :)

Snopercod,
Do they demand liability for in-flight also? I'm thinking if it's because you're in their hangar, maybe a not-in flight, or just in-motion on the ground policy may be acceptable?

People tend to forget that you don't necessarily have to insure your plane for both in flight and not in flight. Perhaps when someone gets to whatever age causes them the issue, they could just drop in-flight coverage.

But, I also agree with those who said fly without insurance. My flying years will end because I'm physically unsafe to fly, not because some actuary tells me that my number is too high. And my time may come before or after the time that the bean counter determines it has come.

Have you asked the insurance company about liability only insurance?
The insurance company might consider that because the chances of hurting
someone on the ground are a whole lot less than if a person is in the plane.
If the insurance company says no to liability only, then I would fly without insurance.

A little encouragement. Just turned 79 and Global didn't hesitate to renew coverage this year on our 7 meeting your coverage requirements. After talking with Gallagher I'm not concerned about coverage for a few more years. :-) I have heard it's best to not change companies as we get older?

To all those saying just fly without insurance, remember that as easy as that sounds not everybody is in the same financial situation here. I know most pilots that flew with me for a living worked paycheck to paycheck and hardly owned anything worth losing (their big houses and fancy cars were all owned by the bank) but I wouldn't fly without at least liability because I don't want to lose the assets I've worked my A$$ off to accumulate.

My plan when it comes time that I can't get at least liability to protect my assets is be a mentor to another pilot. Maybe then I put it into an LLC and insure that pilot only. If at that point I can't afford to still pay for everything then I'll find someone responsible and let them pay for the insurance and feel like it's theirs but they always fly with me. They'll fly without having to buy a plane so it'll be way cheaper than owning or renting themselves but they'll have access to a good well maintained plane and can build hours cheaper. Maybe later that person earns my trust and I let them fly it alone sometimes too once in a while.

So far all I?ve read indicates that anyone we hurt flying is out of luck if we can?t personally afford to pay for their care and recovery. We carry insurance to insure those we hurt following our dream at least have some protection from any error we make. Come on people, insurance is to help others recover from our mistakes. Be responsible and fly responsibly or don?t fly at all. No insurance means don?t fly. We all have to hang it up sometime - be thankful for the time we were allowed to enjoy this gift called flight!

From Leah Ringeisen of Gallagher Aviation Insurance.

"DID YOU KNOW older pilots need to take extra precautions when comes to insurance?":

"Did you know that some insurance companies will deny starting coverage for you once you reach a certain age no matter what your health condition is? It?s true, before you turn 75 years old, make sure you are with a solid company. A company that won?t reduce coverage, require an annual medical, or require you to fly ?dual only? just because you had another birthday. There are several good companies for senior pilots, so if you are 75 years or older, check with your agent to make sure you won?t have any surprises come your next renewal. Age is just a number. You can still fly insured well into your 80?s as long as you plan ahead."

And a wise thought, at that... pass the torch.

I can't believe I forgot one of the most important things: If you aren't already living in one, move to an airpark ! This way when the time comes that you can't fly by yourself there will be neighbors that will gladly take you up with them. Of course pick your airpark wisely. That's just another reason why I built mine, I want to share experiences between other like-minded neighbors....

If you are an AOPA member or EAA member give them a call. They have some partnerships with insurance companies. I used EAA to get insurance for the 4 homebuilts I built and the Yak I used to own. They are used to these kinds of situations, and if anybody can help you they can.

That's an excellent question. I re-read my Signature contract and it seems that they only demand liability insurance on their premises. If my insurance premium goes up to impossible levels, I'll contact my agent and see what he can do for me. Thank you for the suggestion!

I live in a Skypark and the average age around here is OLD so I have observed what happens when pilots stop flying. From my observations, they get to the point where they are only flying a few hours per year and then stop for several years and finally sell their airplane. I think they just run out of gas. My neighbor at the end of my block called me to help him get his Mooney 232 out of the hanger which I happily complied. He shortly sold it because "If I don't have the strength to wheel my plane out of the hanger, I?m going to sell it"

Most old pilots that want to fly and can pass a medical usually are young enough to get insurance. One thing is for sure, if you are capable enough to maintain an airplane, you are more than capable of flying one. An old charter pilot and IA told me once "They can teach a monkey how to fly an airplane but they can?t teach a monkey to work on one." I have noticed a considerable deterioration of the aircraft owned by older pilots that stop flying.

I think we all will know when it?s time stop flying and for the very few pilots that can?t get insurance before that time, well, more power to you and let your conscious be your guide.

My friend who is 72 years old just bought an RV-12 to fly as a Sport Pilot. He had a very difficult time finding ANY insurance company that would insure for both comprehensive and liability. He finally found a very restrictive policy through Gallagher, paying $2000+ for liability, and $9500+ for both. He chose the very expensive option...at least for the next year. The sad reality is that Light-Sport flying using a drivers license without an FAA medical gets exponentially more expensive with age. He would not have purchased his RV-12 if unable to at least get liability coverage.

No Insurance after 90
 

I am not questioning your statements but there must be more facts or circumstances to make coverage that high. I am 72 and renewed my policy on my RV-12 in February. Full coverage liability, hull, and medical pay was just over $1,300.00 a year.

Those numbers you quoted alarmed me and I am sure some others. If there are additional factors, prior accidents,etc. please let us know.

Thanks.

Respectfully, life consists of continuous risk assessment. Insurance is a tool to help manage risk. Considering flying without insurance ties to the plane, the airport, the surrounding community, and one's personal health, estate and financial condition. I could see myself in this situation, considering flying from a sparsely populated airstrip, away from developed areas. From my airpark, I could easily manage a flight without passing over a single house or business. And I would make sure I had enough resources available in my estate to take care of recovering the plane and me. Thankfully, we still have the freedom to make our own, hopefully informed, personal risk management decisions in America.

I always wondered who was insuring the Wright brothers, Curtis, Lindberg, Wiley Post, etc.

Society wasn't so litigious back then.

Insurance
 

Probably going against the grain a bit, but I'm always surprised how cheap insurance is. When I do the math, I'm struggling to see how it works. If you insure a group of 1000 pilots for 1000 per year, that's a million of revenue. One injury accident will take all that and more. I guess they know what they are doing, but insurance does seem like good value (if you can get it).

I read a lot of NTSB reports, and there does not seem to be a lot of data there pointing to old pilots falling out of the sky. From time to time you see one where you might suspect a medical issue or some other age related factor. I'm not an actuary, nor have I played one on TV, so there are probably good (financial) reasons for insurance companies to have a cutoff date.

Good one...

If I'm 90 and still flying, and my insurance carrier drops me, I'm thinking liability is covered by transferring all my assets to my kids ahead of my death, and go flying anyway. Hard to sue an estate that has nothing much in it.

I tend to agree with rv8ch I'm nowhere near flying yet, but when I was doing my due diligence for the RV7 vs. RV7A decision, I got a quote for the RV7 that was $1,800 per year with zero deductible for $100,000 all risk hull insurance and $1,000,000 liability.

I know it's apples to oranges, but if I extrapolate based on what I pay for my other vehicles, it should be double or triple that...

Getting back to the original post, I've got to say I would (will) be devastated when it finally comes time to hang it up, whatever the reason. I'd think long and hard about trying to find a kid who wanted to fly with me to build time before I gave it up.

I wonder if the "average" insurance claim becomes an NTSB report? I'd think not

You will probably find that some humdrum Cessna 172 or Piper Cherokee is a lot easier to insure than LSA. Many more underwriters are in the game.

There are now laws in some states that will bring that money back to your estate (last I read it was 5 years look back) and if the person you "gave it to" spent it then they get charged with fraud. You're not the first to think of that.

No insurance after 90
 

I took a coffee break this morning and sat outside, leaning against the hangar.
A pickup drove by and stopped...within 20 minutes I had a verbal commitment to purchase the plane, the hangar and ALL its contents.

We sign the paper work today at 4PM

A quick clean break is probably the best re impact on my mental health and outlook. Its like removing a Band Aid, a quick pull is less painful
than a slow one.

I leave aviation that I began in 1948...oh well, everything ends, you and me
also.

Good luck to all....Wolfgang

That, my friend, is the way to do it. Seventy-two years is a very long aviation career. Best wishes on an enjoyable new chapter.

Be sure you include in the paperwork the right to lean up against the hangar with your coffee..... :)

Blue skies Wolfgang...I may be stopping by for a cup of coffee soon.

Wolfgang,
You?ve had a great aviation adventure and you?re obviously a very smart and responsible gentleman. I salute you and wish you well.

I?m getting ready to turn 73 in a few months, in relative good health, but don?t plan on flying too much longer. I?ll probably sell my plane in two to three years and I?ll regret it when I do. But there?s an old saying that I?ll paraphrase: ?it?s better to regret something on the ground than to be in the air and regret it.?

The joy of flying is something I still do and will always treasure and dream about. The life lessons, friendships and experiences I?ve enjoyed have made me the person that I am. No matter my age that dream will be there and the joy remembered!

When you get too old to fly full scale - try this https://youtu.be/MYNgYYpNsWc

A group of us plan to fly in the nursing home cafeteria before we put down the spoon...

Back in February, I had to provide some assistance to a pilot who, not insured and not having flown in awhile, decided to taxi their aircraft for fuel while waiting for the instructor to arrive. $40,000 damage for the airplanes they hit and the aircraft they were in (probably worth $40 - $50,000) was likely a total. That's almost $100,000 of loss in just an instant. Or how about the two gear ups by uninsured pilots that I've seen in just the past couple of years? Or the pilot who lost control taxiing and hit a hangar - serious damage there as well as totaling the aircraft inside the hangar that was hit.

Operating without insurance probably wouldn't be my first choice.

First, I?d have a cup of coffee and then solicit input from this community. Then I?d consider self insuring, maybe buying an insurance company and call it 70plus, or maybe I?d consider liability only if it was available. Last, I?d sell it and then fly with some of my buds at airport who have an empty seat from time to time. Just because the insurance company can?t make a dime on insuring you doesn?t mean your life of flying has to end. It?s just means that your life of solo flying has hit a speed bump. Flying dual may open up new friendship doors now that you would have never entertained before. I loved my RV-3 but man that solo stuff got old fast. At least for now, I can load up several buds in the twin and scare the $@@@ out of them which provides much joy( scare meaning they are used to 30mph over the numbers, not 130mph). Seriously, I know this next chapter for you will be great no matter what you decide and I hope that each and every day is as rewarding as yesterday. Good Bless.

While you may not be an aircraft owner/PIC going forward.... Keep your airport friends. I hope they'll gladly welcome you to join in the co-pilots seat for breakfast for more years to come.

From someone in their mid eighties: That all sounds easy but has some problems. I recently had to give it all up, sold my planes and hangar after 50 years of being a safe pilot. I flew a lot of those years without insurance for various reasons, but for me the Flight Review rules changes got me. As you know, after 50 years of accident free flying, I now need some young person with a few months of flying experience to decide if I can fly or not and give me an exam all over again to cover his certificates Compound that with their monetary incentive to get in a bunch of instructor fees to pay for their CFI rating and their total fear of anything with Experimental in the name and you have been shut out. Oh did I mention, NO review in anything without old round gauges!
I was bitter, I cried a lot, and still am not over it but will get there. Still looking over ultralights :-)

Don,
Is there a glider club near you? Mine in Va. offers all instruction free to members. This is for the instructor only, still have to pay rental on club planes and tow fees. But flight reviews are instruction and are free. Most of our instructors are older and most ex Navy and AF, no low hour kids looking for fees and time. This could be a path to check out.

Hey---Check our Sam Buchanan's avatar. He's 118 years old and still flyin:D:D:D