Correct terminology with ATC or Tower
 

When under ATC control and changing frequency what is the current correct terminology to announce your presence on the new frequency, I have recently read that "with you" is not correct and "up" is also not correct.:confused:
Tks
Figs

If "with you" is now wrong, I have a 20 year habit to try break.

freq change - check the AIM
 

The AIM says to give them something useful, and avoid fluff.

Austin approach - n12345 - 3500 ft

https://airresearch.com/Pilots/AIM-0...5/aim0503.html

+1 On a "hand off" that is exactly what I use: "Denver Center- N12345 - 8500 ft" Tells them exactly what they need. They were expecting you and they just need to know you are there and what altitude you show.

Same. On a "switch to my frequency" I'll switch first then transmit "N12345 with you on xx.xx"

Phraseology
 

You can look up the proper phraseology here:

https://www.faasafety.gov/gslac/ALC/....aspx?id=17272

and a summarized version here:

http://wiki.flightgear.org/ATC_phras...ise.2C_descent


One of the most annoying habits I see, on a day to day basis, is people not being concise in their communications. An example frequency change would be:

"Uh...Houston center, experimental N12345...we are a Van's RV-8 and um, we are 25 miles North, no I mean South of XYZ VOR and we are at 4,000 feet and climbing to 6,500 feet heading 240 degrees, no wait 241 degrees, going to KABC airport checking on with you...Over."

When you really only need,

Houston Center, N12345, 4,000 climbing to 6,500."

Long winded communication just ties up the frequency...

I usually like to preface a transmission to ATC with...."Hello" (Technique only)

After all, they are human too.... :)

It Depends
 

One of my personal upsets are pilots failure to listen on the new frequency before reporting in. If a controller is giving another aircraft control instructions they really don?t want to hear anyone?s else?s ums and awhs until they know United 680 has visual with the traffic they have pointed out to them. My rule of thumb is to give the frequency at least 5 seconds before making my initial call. YMMV

Several surveys with controllers show that they don't particularly like "with you."

Also, bad form to say "four thousand for one four thousand." Should say "four thousand climbing one four thousand." The "for" adds confusion.

YMMV

Kieth is correct, Greg in the following post is also correct for the most precise with the least syllables when the frequency is hopping. “With you,” “Hello” etc is also fine within the context of the situation and how busy the frequency is, I like to include a “Wecome” with a check-on when time allows.
Saying “with you” or “up” is implied, kinda like “N1234 if you hear center ident” vs “N1234 ident.”
About halfway into training a newbie controller we’ll charge them a nickel for every wasted syllable during a day of training. It would pay for Lunch, gas, beer and then some!
Always extra points if the pilot has a proper British accent....

Controller
 

Fig it?s always hard unless you can say ?Speedbird 07 out of 350 for 390. Brits get it.

Now I have a goal... Working on my British accent!!!

Flight levels...
 

+1 with Bob, however...

Might be also heard as 4,000 climbing 26,500, though context carries more weight here.

In the spirit of brevity, I don't even include the name of the controlling facility. They know who they are and don't need me to remind them.

four six Juliet echo, four thousand climbing six thousand.

or final controller for my destination (assuming non-towered):

Four Six Juliet Echo, Four Thousand with the weather and notams. Request RNAV 18. Save at least 2 back and foruth Q & As

Different Controller/Freq - "XXXX Center, RV 904DC FL185" ;) and if specifically ATC assigned, any speed or heading.

Same controller different frequency, i.e. "RV 904DC, change to my frequency 128.2" - if you have coms with standby frequency tuning (flip-flop), just tune and respond on the new assigned frequency. "RV 904DC made the switch" or RV 904DC on 128.2" If you don't have flip-flop coms (not sure they make those anymore) then you should read back the new frequency before switching to confirm.

The whole "with you" thing is an aviation faux pas because of the lack of brevity, even old salty airline captains do this. It's not a big deal until you're in the middle of a NY push and you can barely get a word in. This is where a timely WILCO can work wonders for ATC...unless you're in California those controllers need everything read back with your callsign.

Also there's only 3 controlling agencies...Good Morning, Good Afternoon, and Good Evening

The worst, most incorrect...
 

None is as bad as the dummy that says,
Wait....
Wait...
Any traffic in the pattern please advise.

Well, my wife usually works the radios when we fly and 99.99% of the time she says something like "RV64GH checking in at 8.5". She has worked LAX tower for around 19 years so I kind of follow her lead and so far it has worked out.

I don't think that is a good idea. I often hear people calling the wrong facility on initial call up. Identifying who you think you are talking to on the first call helps to "quickly" identify errors. Without this, when the wrong frequency is dialed in the controller could spend a decent amount of time trying to find the mystery plane that is not on his screen. We follow the same logic when we repeat the clearance instructions or amendments we just received. Yes, it wastes air time, but history has shown that it helps to bring out misunderstandings before they do damage, in the IFR environment anyways. Also, I don't think that I have ever heard ATC identify themselves as "approach" or "center." They always include the facility name and I suspect that is on purpose to avoid miscommunication.

Larry

Include the facility name
 

+1 for including the facility name when calling in.
We can have one controller monitoring multiple frequencies, so it helps them.(Some ATC services have been centralised)

I've been reminded that you want to avoid using the words "to" and "for" as much as possible to avoid confusion. In most contexts they're not needed anyway.

FWIW
 

Lately, I had several issues when checking in (IFR flight plan). Three times on long cross countries, the controllers were working multiple frequencies and although I could not hear, they were busy. Very busy, so I have begun to just call out my tail # and wait. Then "RV226 whiskey lima level eight thousand"

I add the "level" because in a flight (two different flights) with 13 handoffs, ATC asked if I was level more than once. I don't know what they may be seeing as I was level on AP the whole time. Usually in smooth air.

Anyone know why they would ask, and should I continue with the "level" call out?

there are no pronouns in air traffic. say,,call sign, altitude,anything important, then listen,,,,,,

Sounds like fingernails on a chalkboard.

122.8
 

Try that in Central Texas where most airports are on 122.8. The guys that say this usually forget to start with the airport name. Almost as bad as a meow-war on guard. Lots of fun!

...and
 

"...so I have begun to just call out my tail # and wait. Then "RV226 whiskey lima level eight thousand"..."

...and you contribute to the congestion on the frequency because now he has to ASK for the information that you should have provided on the initial call and you have to answer...again...

They likely haven't paid much attention to your blip on the radar until you checked in. The fact that your blip doesn't show a vertical velocity at the moment they look at it, doesn't necessarily mean that you won't be in another few seconds. ATC is always looking to confirm "your understanding" of your clearance and intentions when checking in, not just what the strip says. You should always include "level" or other mode when checking in, IMO. It is a redundancy designed for safety in the IFR environment.

Larry

Larry

Nope, read again what he wrote. He?s checking in (holy cr@p I said the bad words!) on a IFR flight plan, not calling to request flight following. No extra congestion caused here.

Exactly! A huge peeve of mine is just this; flipping to a new frequency, mash the PTT and start yakking. I hear it multiple times every day and it drives me nuts, it?s just freakin rude. The worst I?ve seen was one night at Denver; on a visual approach I switched to tower with the usual ?Good evening Tower, United XXX visual 17L?. One second after I released the PTT some idiot Southwest guy starts talking, also checking in with tower. I wanted to hug the tower guy as he ignored SWA and cleared us to land...

Bill, just curious if it was a point to point normal XC or a multiple airport multiple approaches bouncing in and out of different facilities.
Flight plan info to/from centers, approach controls as towers doesn?t process the same. Some routes like IAF?s versus landing airports and temporary versus filed altitude can raise questions as to what the aircraft is or wants to do.

Atc
 

?...Nope, read again what he wrote...?

I did... and I read it to mean he called atc with his call sign, waited (unkey the mic) and then made another call. If he actually kept the mic keyed, the result is the same; no one else can talk...leading to frequency congestion.

The guide on proper phraseology is pretty specific and can be found in a link posted in a previous reply.

Overall, I think the majority of folks using the system do a pretty good job, even if the phraseology isn?t quite standard...there will always be the couple percent that mess it up, though...

Perhaps that I always found controllers helpful when I lived in the US!!

During handoff try to ensure you have the right freq. Listen before check-in. Brevity helps in busy approach environments. Especially when wx sux and lots of guys flying lots of approaches at different airports (DFW area is manly where I teach IFR). All these are technique anyway.

But I am in agreement. With others. You are either Level, Climbing, or Descending. No ?with you?. No ?climbing to?. No ?4 for 5?.

...and
 

?...You are either Level, Climbing, or Descending. No ?with you?. No ?climbing to?. No ?4 for 5?...?

Well, you would be very disappointed listening to radio chatter day in and day out. All of those terms, and many others, are routinely used every day. Is it proper phraseology? Nope, but it is reality...

Nah Luv, just you was talkin proper....like ;)

I have spent the last 20 years flying from Perfidious Albion to the Colonies.

As I explained to many of the FO's, it's their train set, say as you hear.

In all due respect, I do not speak the Queens' English because I am from Oop North as we say.

But I listened, waited and conversed in an appropriate manner for the Controller. Some were correct and proper, some were relaxed and some were down right laid back...

Sitting over Flatulence Oklahoma or Badidliboin Odaidaho on a dark and stormy night listening to a laid back controller steering tired folks around big storms made me super proud that however you converse, pitch it to the recipient, be nice, be professional and talk.

Sadly, the statistics are littered with accident reports where introvert or shy pilots have not communicated and the result has not been good.

My guidance was, and always is, if you can talk as though on a phone, be nice and talk. Don't waste brain time trying to think how to put together what you want to say - you are on a hiding to disaster.

I always announce what I am climbing or decending to. I don't care that it wastes time. I want to ensure that I and my new controller are in agreement on what my clearance is. Seems like cheap insurance to me. Furhter, it was my understanding that they want your current altitude to confirm your gauge with their screen. We have often heard that controller mention altitude confirmed or not when calling out traffic. This is how they do that. Possibly it is just the first controller that needs to make the confirmation and not each controller along the route.

Larry

Negative, Bob, that method avoided congestion . . .after two calls spaced a couple few minutes apart where I apparently stepped on someone on the other frequency with the full report, he says, "I am working two frequencies, everybody stand by, then asked what I said . . . . Don't make assumptions.

There is no way for a pilot to interject the full report in clear air if we can not hear another frequency with heavy traffic from ATC.

It was on a point to point 600nm cross country, and I filed/got 8000, so it 13-14 hand offs at that altitude. I did accept an altitude change for traffic and stayed at 10k. I don't remember if it was before or after that. It seemed there was talking to "approach" more frequently at 8k than at 10k, but just could have been the route.

I don't know if that answers the question??

"...I always announce what I am climbing or decending to. I don't care that it wastes time..."

Larry, as you should according to proper phraseology. I think you might have thought the statement between the quotes was mine; it was not. It was the statement that I was replying to in the second line. According to the FAA, on check in:

"Pilot: Station, callsign, passing current altitude, climbing (descending) to altitude, other ATC clearances assigned"



"Negative, Bob, that method avoided congestion . . .after two calls spaced a couple few minutes apart where I apparently stepped on someone on the other frequency with the full report, he says, "I am working two frequencies, everybody stand by, then asked what I said . . . . Don't make assumptions.

There is no way for a pilot to interject the full report in clear air if we can not hear another frequency with heavy traffic from ATC."

Bill, do I detect a bit of condescension? That isn't necessary. My point is that checking on with just you N number can cause several additional communications between you and ATC, which increases congestion on an already busy frequency. That is why you check on as noted above. In this case though, you already tried twice and the controller was swamped.

As far as your second statement, I disagree. The controllers are expecting you after a hand off and they are expecting to here what is detailed above. They can also, as we do, work several frequencies successfully. Yes, they can become overwhelmed but I fly in and out of many first tier airports every week, and pretty much everyone checks in with the required info, even though we cannot hear the other frequency ATC is working...

I know. I fly 121 during the week when I'm not instructing in piston stuff. I just try to encourage my customers to practice the best they can, knowing after were done they (we all) will regress some.

fact
 

That's a fact...and if you fly 121 then you KNOW what I'm talking about!

mode c validation
 

hi I work at Miami center and have been a controller since 89. We use altitude leaving to verify and validate your mode c. Now saying your altitude and assigned altitude is a good idea, otherwise you will hear verify assigned altitude. We want to make sure what is in the data block is factual. You have no idea how many times this has saved pilots and controllers from deviations. When we don't hear altitude leaving and assigned altitude it is like reading half a sentence.

Another scenario which is different but happens frequently... AAL57 is at FL360,High alt sector assigns AAL57 pilots discretion decent maintain FL240, AAL57 checks on with low altitude sector saying AAL57 FL360. Now the low altitude controller is confused. We have two options, get control from high so we can descend him or ask the pilot to verify his assigned altitude, both adding to workload.