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-   -   FAA Acts To Preserve ADS-B Data Privacy (1090 ES) (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=176658)

Sam Buchanan 12-17-2019 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toobuilder (Post 1393515)
I'm not in a position to determine what behavior society seems unacceptable - I just live here. I just don't think pilots get a "pass" on an activity that, in in virtually any other circumstance, would be highly offensive and or borderline criminal.

If they put transponders on cars and allowed the public to determine ownership and track movement in real time there would be an immediate public uproar - and with **** good reason.

It's hypocritical to apply a different privacy standard because of our chosen mode of transportation.

Michael, I was willing to cut you some slack.....then you go and imply watching aircraft tracks is "highly offensive and or borderline criminal" and "hypocritical"....sorry...that crossed a line for me. But I realize your beef isn't with me but with the entire ATC universe. If putting transponders in cars would eliminate nearly all traffic collisions and deaths I suspect a huge portion of the general population would be on-board.

We'll have to just go our separate ways on this one.

Kyle Boatright 12-17-2019 02:27 PM

The reality (alternately, MY reality) is that I value privacy and see no need for the 7 (?) billion people on earth to know where my airplane is at any given time. Certainly, ATC has a need to know, but beyond that, I only see downsides to that information being public. I can come up with dozens of scenarios (and I guarantee some will come to fruition) where the information can and will be used for less than beneficial purposes.

Toobuilder 12-17-2019 03:15 PM

Sam it's clear we are a million miles apart on this and that's just fine. But there is one point I need to clarify. You and others in this thread have discussed taking an interest in the goings on of PEOPLE (through the aircraft information) - that's where it crosses the line. I often look up at airplanes and wonder where they are going, but that's where it ends. If you know (or can find out) who those people are, then track them, that's a whole new can of worms.

Watching/trackng PEOPLE (even pilots) without their consent is socially unacceptable.

breister 12-18-2019 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toobuilder (Post 1393515)
I'm not in a position to determine what behavior society seems unacceptable - I just live here. I just don't think pilots get a "pass" on an activity that, in in virtually any other circumstance, would be highly offensive and or borderline criminal.

If they put transponders on cars and allowed the public to determine ownership and track movement in real time there would be an immediate public uproar - and with **** good reason.

It's hypocritical to apply a different privacy standard because of our chosen mode of transportation.

Here, here!

I'm installing an echoUAT unit and, based on this thread, plan on making it "removable." Reg says "must be on if installed," I say uninstall it unless absolutely needed.

Sam Buchanan 12-18-2019 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by breister (Post 1393694)
Here, here!

I'm installing an echoUAT unit and, based on this thread, plan on making it "removable." Reg says "must be on if installed," I say uninstall it unless absolutely needed.

Once the FAA has generated a performance report after your initial installation they know your aircraft is a 2020 ADS-B installation.......suspect your logic would be sketchy if push came to shove. Then there is that pesky logbook entry....... :)

Privacy is a touchy subject, but privacy is pretty much a thing of the past in our current technological culture.....way to many breadcrumbs being dropped to stay totally anonymous.

breister 12-18-2019 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Buchanan (Post 1393518)
If putting transponders in cars would eliminate nearly all traffic collisions and deaths I suspect a huge portion of the general population would be on-board.

Well if some is good, more is better eh? Why not just put everyone in jail cells? Then there would be no shootings or stabbings!

A lot of things sound like a great idea on the surface, I'm not busting on you. Well maybe a little - I think you just haven't thought it through. However, everything government does has unintended (or "undisclosed") consequences. Life has risk, and the sort of people who are addicted to power (read, "The Prince" - only 61 pages) do not ever have your best interests at heart. Statistically, that is the sort of person attracted to a career in politics...

Our Constitution guarantees us an unlimited Right to travel among the States without papers as one of many guarantees against tyranny. A license to operate a motor vehicle was an understandable compromise, but you don't have to broadcast it on radio everywhere you travel. For comparison, just consider that it is a felony to place any kind of tracking device on an individual's car or person without a warrant (it is a violation of our Civil Rights) - punishable by up to 10 years in jail for each offense.

Americans are slowly forgetting why we first utterly denied any BUT enumerated rights to government, then enumerated these individual rights to reinforce the fact that government cannot simply do what it wants. People who crave power work tirelessly to help that process along, because they know a simple truth: If you don't know what your rights are, for all practical purposes you don't have any.

Sam Buchanan 12-18-2019 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by breister (Post 1393701)

A lot of things sound like a great idea on the surface, I'm not busting on you. Well maybe a little - I think you just haven't thought it through.

I thought it through before I posted. :)

Moderator hat pulled on; Let's not get too political, VAF rules will become a factor.

breister 12-18-2019 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle Boatright (Post 1393520)
The reality (alternately, MY reality) is that I value privacy and see no need for the 7 (?) billion people on earth to know where my airplane is at any given time. Certainly, ATC has a need to know, but beyond that, I only see downsides to that information being public. I can come up with dozens of scenarios (and I guarantee some will come to fruition) where the information can and will be used for less than beneficial purposes.

Agreed. There is a reason why it is a felony to place a tracking device on any person or their vehicle without a warrant. The regs say that my ADS-B must be turned on if installed. I'll be installing my echoUAT so that it is "un-installable" in 10 seconds or less.

rmartingt 12-18-2019 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle Boatright (Post 1393520)
The reality (alternately, MY reality) is that I value privacy and see no need for the 7 (?) billion people on earth to know where my airplane is at any given time. Certainly, ATC has a need to know, but beyond that, I only see downsides to that information being public. I can come up with dozens of scenarios (and I guarantee some will come to fruition) where the information can and will be used for less than beneficial purposes.

As much of a problem of ADS-B data being public is that it's linked to open, publicly-accessible registration databases. Any fool with an internet connection can look up an airplane, see who owns it and where they live. From that it's pretty simple to get up to all manner of misdeeds. On the mild end, imagine someone who despises "those ****ed little airplanes" and uses a tracking website to pick out airplanes flying near their house, then sends threatening letters to the owners and makes reports to the FAA of reckless flying.

Imagine for a moment what havoc would descend on society if cars were equipped with always-broadcasting transponders, visible to anyone on the internet, and anybody could look up your home address and driver's license information just off your license plate. Someone decides to take "revenge" for you cutting them off, someone decides to stalk you (or a family member) with real-time location data, extortion/blackmail/etc...

This sort of thing going on even before widespread GPS and internet led to the Driver's Privacy Protection Act:
Quote:

The DPPA was passed in reaction to the a series of abuses of drivers' personal information held by government. The 1989 death of actress Rebecca Schaeffer was a prominent example of such abuse. In that case, a private investigator, hired by an obsessed fan, was able to obtain Rebecca Schaeffer's address through her California motor vehicle record. The fan used her address information to stalk and to kill her. Other incidents cited by Congress included a ring of Iowa home robbers who targeted victims by writing down the license plates of expensive cars and obtaining home address information from the State's department of motor vehicles.

Senator Barbara Boxer, who sponsored 103 S. 1589, a version of the DPPA, cited other examples where stalkers were able to find victims by simply visiting a DMV. She argued that in "34 States, someone [could] walk into a State Motor Vehicle Department with your license plate number and a few dollars and walk out with your name and home address." Senator Boxer also said:

"In Tempe, AZ, a woman was murdered by a man who had obtained her home address from that State's DMV.

And, in California, a 31-year-old man copied down the license plate numbers of five women in their early twenties, obtained their home address from the DMV and then sent them threatening letters at home.
It bothers me that there's no true anonymous option on a 1090 system. It bothers me more that all this information is published openly. It's one thing to show "here's where airplanes are" and identify public air carrier flights, but private flights should be anonymized and the registration data should be need-to-know only. Of course, even if all that changed tonight, it would be years (decades?) before all that data turned over.

I'm looking into an LLC for registration simply to hide my personal information, not for liability purposes. Anyone know of a 978 solution that plays well with Dynon? Or a 978 box with built-in Mode C (i.e. not requiring a separate box)?

skylor 12-18-2019 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmartingt (Post 1393711)
On the mild end, imagine someone who despises "those ****ed little airplanes" and uses a tracking website to pick out airplanes flying near their house, then sends threatening letters to the owners...

I don't have to imagine it...been there, lived it. That's why you won't find my N-Number on Flight Aware, MyRadar, etc. See post #8 in this thread.

Skylor

Toobuilder 12-18-2019 01:54 PM

Yep. I know of several people who have been through the same thing. It's ugly.

My only hope is that once the fleet is fully equipped, enough people (or maybe one, with enough pull) are going to get unfairly violated that there will be a public outcry to lock this data down.

I just hope it doesn't take a murder to make people realize how crazy it is to have our info out there.

breister 12-19-2019 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Buchanan (Post 1393699)
Once the FAA has generated a performance report after your initial installation they know your aircraft is a 2020 ADS-B installation.......suspect your logic would be sketchy if push came to shove. Then there is that pesky logbook entry....... :)

Privacy is a touchy subject, but privacy is pretty much a thing of the past in our current technological culture.....way to many breadcrumbs being dropped to stay totally anonymous.

I may have to research a bit. I know avionics may be "removed for service" and placarded even though the logs show them "installed." Maybe a red streamer installed in its place clearly saying, "Inop - removed for service" or some such...

breister 12-19-2019 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Buchanan (Post 1393702)
I thought it through before I posted. :)

Moderator hat pulled on; Let's not get too political, VAF rules will become a factor.

Fair enough. Some people didn't want to leave England, either, and from their viewpoint those who wanted independence were radicals - thus it ever was! There is room in our society for honest disagreement. :D

Sam Buchanan 12-19-2019 01:48 PM

Good grief.....I express an interest in watching aircraft and get branded as "borderline criminal" and "creepy".....and now its implied I'm a Tory....... :(

Tough crowd.....

fl-mike 12-19-2019 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skylor (Post 1393718)
I don't have to imagine it...been there, lived it. That's why you won't find my N-Number on Flight Aware, MyRadar, etc. See post #8 in this thread.

Skylor

FAA link for those interested:
https://ladd.faa.gov/

Toobuilder 12-19-2019 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Buchanan (Post 1393940)
Good grief.....I express an interest in watching aircraft and get branded as "borderline criminal" and "creepy".....and now its implied I'm a Tory....... :(

Tough crowd.....

Some people value their privacy more than you do Sam. And there is a near certainty that some of your airpark neighbors that you track for your own entertainment feel just as strongly about it as we do.

Just think about that next time you apply your own version of reasonableness to other people.

This thread may seem tough, but it's better than a punch in the nose at your next airport meeting.

N941WR 12-19-2019 03:40 PM

Data is Power
 
If the FAA can provide the raw data (number of flights, to and from, times, type of aircraft, etc.) with or without the N-numbers, then those who don't like aircraft for any reason (noise, pollution, whatever) will have the ammunition to force us out of the sky.

Sometimes I wish AOPA and the EAA would be a bit more militant, similar to the NRA in that no compromise is acceptable.

Sam Buchanan 12-19-2019 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toobuilder (Post 1393956)
Some people value their privacy more than you do Sam. And there is a near certainty that some of your airpark neighbors that you track for your own entertainment feel just as strongly about it as we do.

Just think about that next time you apply your own version of reasonableness to other people.

This thread may seem tough, but it's better than a punch in the nose at your next airport meeting.

Way over the top, Michael. You don't know anything about my airport neighbors and are making totally invalid assumptions.

The RVers I hang with are early adopters of APRS technology over ten years ago (here is the VAF APRS sub-forum). We've been tracking each other's aircraft ever since.....with no bloody noses and never a tense moment or cross word.

Maybe we are just a bit more laid back than the aviation community you are accustomed with. You are militant about privacy, but aviation enthusiasts who are tapping into data that is legal and provided by the FAA and other providers are not villains or doing anything criminal.

That's the way it is......deal with it.

In case you wish to join the tracking community, here are details on how to build or buy a receiver and join the piAware system:

https://flightaware.com/adsb/piaware/build

There are nearly 25,000 tracking sites worldwide. :)

Here is the coverage map as of a few minutes ago:


Toobuilder 12-19-2019 09:43 PM

Sam, you can feign insult, but by your own admission you're the guy who tracks the comings and goings of your neighbors for your own entertainment. And since this is an ADSB centric thread, that means it's outside the APRS network and you are doing it (to some) without their permission. Sorry, but that's "creepy" defined.

Your group of tracker buddies might have colored your worldview, but I'm informing you that some people do not appreciate being tracked. Judging by the response these threads generate, there's plenty of us who feel this way. This is your wake up call. You have the option of respecting this viewpoint of your peers, friends and neighbors and perhaps use this information as "social epiphany", or you can continue to go on the offensive and diminish those views because they conflict with your own.

It's your choice to give up your privacy, but does that override the rights/opinion of those who cherish it?

moosepileit 12-20-2019 06:14 AM

So, if enough peeping toms unite with enough exhibitionists...

We just see a new normal? Ewwww.

Snowflake 12-20-2019 07:47 AM

I'm wondering if Vans' new kit shouldn't have been a wall sign, but an aluminum hat. More durable than tinfoil...

upperdeck 12-20-2019 09:21 AM

Has anyone successfully used this new process on a piston plane? Seems you need a third party number and they are only available from fltplan for turbine aircraft. Not sure about foreflight.

LettersFromFlyoverCountry 12-21-2019 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle Boatright (Post 1393520)
The reality (alternately, MY reality) is that I value privacy and see no need for the 7 (?) billion people on earth to know where my airplane is at any given time. Certainly, ATC has a need to know, but beyond that, I only see downsides to that information being public. I can come up with dozens of scenarios (and I guarantee some will come to fruition) where the information can and will be used for less than beneficial purposes.

This gets back to my original question: what scenarios is everyone concerned about (the tracking of a daughter is a complete non-starter for me; that's tinfoil hat stuff, imho)?

There are possibilities and there are probabilities and the assessment of risk requires us to know the difference and the dimension.

The information has been around for years. If someone can provide specific examples of how it has been used against GA owners, including the total number of such instances, it might be easier to determine whether it's worth bothering to worry about .

Murder?

That's an "alrighty then" Homer Simpson, back into the cornfield slowly thread ender.

Kyle Boatright 12-21-2019 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LettersFromFlyoverCountry (Post 1394278)

The information has been around for years. If someone can provide specific examples of how it has been used against GA owners, including the total number of such instances, it might be easier to determine whether it's worth bothering to worry about .

I know of no way to count the instances. But a high profile example of what can happen was the incident a few years ago where Auburn was courting a football coach from another school, and flightaware data (IIRC) was used to embarrass everyone involved.

There are also examples where people have been tracked to locations they didn't want disclosed, either for personal or business reasons. I promise you, Warren Buffet does not want you to know where he is on a given day, nor (sometimes) does AOPA management, for instance. Same with Air Force One. Why? Security. Business insight. Privacy.

PilotjohnS 12-21-2019 08:21 AM

Registration
 
So can I register my homebuilt as a LLC and still get a repairman?s certificate?

Toobuilder 12-21-2019 09:20 AM

Bob, not sure if you have ever been in the military, but those of us that have understand the concept of OPSEC. And some of us are required to be aware of and adhere to some significant security processes due to our employment choices since our military service. I have a pretty extensive document I have to fill out before I go on personal vacation and again when I return documenting to my employer and customers that nothing "unusual" happened. This has been my reality for 30 years and I'm far from alone in this requirement among those on this forum. Bottom line: knowing where your adversary is now and where they will be in the future is a VERY powerful piece of information. Just ask Admiral Yamamoto or Osama bin Laden (sorry, can't because they're DEAD).

The fact that you (or others) can't conceive of a malicious use of the information ADSB presents is likely a testament to your gentle nature. That's a complement. But the reality is that it's also demonstrably naive. Laws have been passed which block car registrations from the public BECAUSE BAD PEOEPLE DO BAD THINGS WITH THAT INFORMATION. This isn't tin foil hat paranoia, it's reality. I work in an industry that exploits this information and I see first hand just how easy it is to use.

You may think that everyone on this forum has your best interest in heart. You may think that people who use aviation tracking data are good people. You might not believe people get killed for less information.

You would be wrong on all counts.

alcladrv 12-21-2019 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PilotjohnS (Post 1394298)
So can I register my homebuilt as a LLC and still get a repairman?s certificate?

My -7A is actually owned by a corporation I control and I have the repairman's certificate since I built it.

alcladrv 12-21-2019 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toobuilder (Post 1394312)
Bob, not sure if you have ever been in the military, but those of us that have understand the concept of OPSEC. And some of us are required to be aware of and adhere to some significant security processes due to our employment choices since our military service. I have a pretty extensive document I have to fill out before I go on personal vacation and again when I return documenting to my employer and customers that nothing "unusual" happened. This has been my reality for 30 years and I'm far from alone in this requirement among those on this forum. Bottom line: knowing where your adversary is now and where they will be in the future is a VERY powerful piece of information. Just ask Admiral Yamamoto or Osama bin Laden (sorry, can't because they're DEAD).

The fact that you (or others) can't conceive of a malicious use of the information ADSB presents is likely a testament to your gentle nature. That's a complement. But the reality is that it's also demonstrably naive. Laws have been passed which block car registrations from the public BECAUSE BAD PEOEPLE DO BAD THINGS WITH THAT INFORMATION. This isn't tin foil hat paranoia, it's reality. I work in an industry that exploits this information and I see first hand just how easy it is to use.

You may think that everyone on this forum has your best interest in heart. You may think that people who use aviation tracking data are good people. You might not believe people get killed for less information.

You would be wrong on all counts.

Spot on!!!

smokyray 12-21-2019 01:27 PM

Amen brother.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Toobuilder (Post 1394312)
).

The fact that you (or others) can't conceive of a malicious use of the information ADSB presents is likely a testament to your gentle nature. That's a complement. But the reality is that it's also demonstrably naive. Laws have been passed which block car registrations from the public BECAUSE BAD PEOEPLE DO BAD THINGS WITH THAT INFORMATION. This isn't tin foil hat paranoia, it's reality. I work in an industry that exploits this information and I see first hand just how easy it is to use.

You may think that everyone on this forum has your best interest in heart. You may think that people who use aviation tracking data are good people. You might not believe people get killed for less information.

You would be wrong on all counts.

Michael,
As a former terrorist hunter/killer I appreciate your service and candor, couldn’t agree more.
Privacy is still an inalienable right guaranteed in the Constitution. My ADSB solution? Its simple, avoidance.
I will simply comply by treating affected ADSB airspace like a SAM ring, stiff arm, for now. ATC still has the option to allow passage, my guess is they will, at first.

Thank God there’s still enough unaffected airspace left (protected by and preserved by brave patriots) here in TX and elsewhere that I can still operate VFR without a flight plan, transponder, ADSB or speak to anyone while piloting an airplane I built myself.

V/R
Smokey

I spent a large portion of my aviation career pursuing some very evil men in a lawless land where malicious intent is personified.This task performed under the mission description “search and destroy,” flying in airspace where you’re not welcome and the natives shoot back and play for keeps. Needless to say, trust is a word I don’t take lightly.

David Paule 12-21-2019 01:56 PM

Being closer to a large city, the hangar I bought lies just under the 30 mile ring, and that's half an hour away from home. I have no choice - ADS-B is required for my planes. Now if they didn't have an electrical system.... but they do.

Dave

skylor 12-21-2019 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alcladrv (Post 1394319)
Spot on!!!

Agreed.

I would be somewhat less bothered by the public's ability to easily track N numbers if our registration information weren't public information. Why is it that aircraft owners and operators are afforded less privacy rights than automobile owners? To me, this is the heart of the problem for those aircraft owners that want to protect their privacy.

Skylor

LettersFromFlyoverCountry 12-23-2019 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toobuilder (Post 1394312)
The fact that you (or others) can't conceive of a malicious use of the information ADSB presents is likely a testament to your gentle nature.

I never said any such thing. I can conceive of all sorts of scenarios, but that's not the question I asked.

I asked what of those scenarios are or have been experienced in the GA world which -- if answered could at least give us a better idea of risk assessment. That fact that someone COULD do something of some sort does not provide anything of value other than a theory.

That's not good enough and the reason I know that's not good enough is the "it could happen" assertion is the same one that's used by lots of people to try to keep us and our planes out of the air.

You COULD use that plane for terrorist purposes. You COULD drive your plane into your ex-wife's house (by the way, I dare say THAT actually happens much more frequently than people being murdered or a daughter abducted because FlightAware showed you going off for a $100 hamburger).

How do we as pilots react to those assertions?

We respond in a logical and informed way. We assess that liklihood and-- usually -- dismiss it, or at least try to educate the people on the ground as to why the assertion is out of proportion to a proper risk assessment. I put those assertions in the same category as "someone could murder your daughter" because of ADS-B information.

That we do this logical and informed assessment of risk as pilots is not a testament to our gentle nature or our unwillingness to conceive of a possibility. It's that we recognize that it is impossible to live life in a risk-free world and we evaluate those risks factually and logically in order to determine what we will assume and those that we are not willing to assume.

LettersFromFlyoverCountry 12-23-2019 10:12 AM

I
Quote:

Originally Posted by smokyray (Post 1394372)
Michael,

Privacy is still an inalienable right guaranteed in the Constitution. [/i]

Privacy isn't mentioned in the Constitution.

It is considered by the Supreme Court to be in the Fourth Amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,

But that runs afoul of a lot of strict constructionists and, of course, the extent what is covered by the Fourth is very much a matter of debate that is not settled by the words of the Fourth Amendment as the debate over government interference of the doctor-patient relationship, mandated breathalyzer tests in implied consent (drunk driving) or DWI blood/urine testing, when can cops enter your property, what can a photographer legally photograph of your home (anything visible from the street), etc., attest.

As with most rights, courts weigh personal rights against societal rights and come down somewhere on that spectrum. That was most evident in two cases before the court a few years ago when the court ruled on two implied consent cases on the same day, striking down a North Dakota law that forced blood tests of suspected drunk drivers, while upholding a similiar Minnesota statute that forced drivers to submit to breathalyzer tests.

Both of thoses cases hinged on the words of the fourth amendent, which mentioned neither blood nor breath, of course.

I could someday see a scenario where we're not allowed to fly over someone's house because of words that actually ARE in the constitution: the right of people to be secure... in their houses. Yikes!

But back to the flight data, I will stipulate, however, to the reality that I've not heard a compelling case for why the public should have access to the data. In that vacuum, I suspect, the over-the-top, unlikely scenarios of why they shouldn't will probably hold sway.

Good chatting with you guys. Thanks for the intellectual stimulation. I'm gonna move along now.

Happy holidays

moosepileit 12-23-2019 12:18 PM

Why can't I google your license plate or boat reg if I can google an N#?

GWZ 12-27-2019 05:46 AM

Just saw this. ?The FAA?s Privacy ICAO Address (PIA) program, announced in early November, quietly went live Thursday, Dec. 19.?
Has anybody tried this out yet?

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...-now-available

Cannon 12-27-2019 12:27 PM

I just tried, but it?s restricted to operators with an approved call sign (like the ?Dot Com? call signs available through FltPlan.com/Garmin).

Doesn?t seem to work for us yet.


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