VAF Forums

VAF Forums (https://vansairforce.net/community/index.php)
-   ADS-B (https://vansairforce.net/community/forumdisplay.php?f=113)
-   -   FAA Acts To Preserve ADS-B Data Privacy (1090 ES) (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=176658)

Sam Buchanan 12-17-2019 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toobuilder (Post 1393515)
I'm not in a position to determine what behavior society seems unacceptable - I just live here. I just don't think pilots get a "pass" on an activity that, in in virtually any other circumstance, would be highly offensive and or borderline criminal.

If they put transponders on cars and allowed the public to determine ownership and track movement in real time there would be an immediate public uproar - and with **** good reason.

It's hypocritical to apply a different privacy standard because of our chosen mode of transportation.

Michael, I was willing to cut you some slack.....then you go and imply watching aircraft tracks is "highly offensive and or borderline criminal" and "hypocritical"....sorry...that crossed a line for me. But I realize your beef isn't with me but with the entire ATC universe. If putting transponders in cars would eliminate nearly all traffic collisions and deaths I suspect a huge portion of the general population would be on-board.

We'll have to just go our separate ways on this one.

Kyle Boatright 12-17-2019 02:27 PM

The reality (alternately, MY reality) is that I value privacy and see no need for the 7 (?) billion people on earth to know where my airplane is at any given time. Certainly, ATC has a need to know, but beyond that, I only see downsides to that information being public. I can come up with dozens of scenarios (and I guarantee some will come to fruition) where the information can and will be used for less than beneficial purposes.

Toobuilder 12-17-2019 03:15 PM

Sam it's clear we are a million miles apart on this and that's just fine. But there is one point I need to clarify. You and others in this thread have discussed taking an interest in the goings on of PEOPLE (through the aircraft information) - that's where it crosses the line. I often look up at airplanes and wonder where they are going, but that's where it ends. If you know (or can find out) who those people are, then track them, that's a whole new can of worms.

Watching/trackng PEOPLE (even pilots) without their consent is socially unacceptable.

breister 12-18-2019 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toobuilder (Post 1393515)
I'm not in a position to determine what behavior society seems unacceptable - I just live here. I just don't think pilots get a "pass" on an activity that, in in virtually any other circumstance, would be highly offensive and or borderline criminal.

If they put transponders on cars and allowed the public to determine ownership and track movement in real time there would be an immediate public uproar - and with **** good reason.

It's hypocritical to apply a different privacy standard because of our chosen mode of transportation.

Here, here!

I'm installing an echoUAT unit and, based on this thread, plan on making it "removable." Reg says "must be on if installed," I say uninstall it unless absolutely needed.

Sam Buchanan 12-18-2019 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by breister (Post 1393694)
Here, here!

I'm installing an echoUAT unit and, based on this thread, plan on making it "removable." Reg says "must be on if installed," I say uninstall it unless absolutely needed.

Once the FAA has generated a performance report after your initial installation they know your aircraft is a 2020 ADS-B installation.......suspect your logic would be sketchy if push came to shove. Then there is that pesky logbook entry....... :)

Privacy is a touchy subject, but privacy is pretty much a thing of the past in our current technological culture.....way to many breadcrumbs being dropped to stay totally anonymous.

breister 12-18-2019 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Buchanan (Post 1393518)
If putting transponders in cars would eliminate nearly all traffic collisions and deaths I suspect a huge portion of the general population would be on-board.

Well if some is good, more is better eh? Why not just put everyone in jail cells? Then there would be no shootings or stabbings!

A lot of things sound like a great idea on the surface, I'm not busting on you. Well maybe a little - I think you just haven't thought it through. However, everything government does has unintended (or "undisclosed") consequences. Life has risk, and the sort of people who are addicted to power (read, "The Prince" - only 61 pages) do not ever have your best interests at heart. Statistically, that is the sort of person attracted to a career in politics...

Our Constitution guarantees us an unlimited Right to travel among the States without papers as one of many guarantees against tyranny. A license to operate a motor vehicle was an understandable compromise, but you don't have to broadcast it on radio everywhere you travel. For comparison, just consider that it is a felony to place any kind of tracking device on an individual's car or person without a warrant (it is a violation of our Civil Rights) - punishable by up to 10 years in jail for each offense.

Americans are slowly forgetting why we first utterly denied any BUT enumerated rights to government, then enumerated these individual rights to reinforce the fact that government cannot simply do what it wants. People who crave power work tirelessly to help that process along, because they know a simple truth: If you don't know what your rights are, for all practical purposes you don't have any.

Sam Buchanan 12-18-2019 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by breister (Post 1393701)

A lot of things sound like a great idea on the surface, I'm not busting on you. Well maybe a little - I think you just haven't thought it through.

I thought it through before I posted. :)

Moderator hat pulled on; Let's not get too political, VAF rules will become a factor.

breister 12-18-2019 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle Boatright (Post 1393520)
The reality (alternately, MY reality) is that I value privacy and see no need for the 7 (?) billion people on earth to know where my airplane is at any given time. Certainly, ATC has a need to know, but beyond that, I only see downsides to that information being public. I can come up with dozens of scenarios (and I guarantee some will come to fruition) where the information can and will be used for less than beneficial purposes.

Agreed. There is a reason why it is a felony to place a tracking device on any person or their vehicle without a warrant. The regs say that my ADS-B must be turned on if installed. I'll be installing my echoUAT so that it is "un-installable" in 10 seconds or less.

rmartingt 12-18-2019 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle Boatright (Post 1393520)
The reality (alternately, MY reality) is that I value privacy and see no need for the 7 (?) billion people on earth to know where my airplane is at any given time. Certainly, ATC has a need to know, but beyond that, I only see downsides to that information being public. I can come up with dozens of scenarios (and I guarantee some will come to fruition) where the information can and will be used for less than beneficial purposes.

As much of a problem of ADS-B data being public is that it's linked to open, publicly-accessible registration databases. Any fool with an internet connection can look up an airplane, see who owns it and where they live. From that it's pretty simple to get up to all manner of misdeeds. On the mild end, imagine someone who despises "those ****ed little airplanes" and uses a tracking website to pick out airplanes flying near their house, then sends threatening letters to the owners and makes reports to the FAA of reckless flying.

Imagine for a moment what havoc would descend on society if cars were equipped with always-broadcasting transponders, visible to anyone on the internet, and anybody could look up your home address and driver's license information just off your license plate. Someone decides to take "revenge" for you cutting them off, someone decides to stalk you (or a family member) with real-time location data, extortion/blackmail/etc...

This sort of thing going on even before widespread GPS and internet led to the Driver's Privacy Protection Act:
Quote:

The DPPA was passed in reaction to the a series of abuses of drivers' personal information held by government. The 1989 death of actress Rebecca Schaeffer was a prominent example of such abuse. In that case, a private investigator, hired by an obsessed fan, was able to obtain Rebecca Schaeffer's address through her California motor vehicle record. The fan used her address information to stalk and to kill her. Other incidents cited by Congress included a ring of Iowa home robbers who targeted victims by writing down the license plates of expensive cars and obtaining home address information from the State's department of motor vehicles.

Senator Barbara Boxer, who sponsored 103 S. 1589, a version of the DPPA, cited other examples where stalkers were able to find victims by simply visiting a DMV. She argued that in "34 States, someone [could] walk into a State Motor Vehicle Department with your license plate number and a few dollars and walk out with your name and home address." Senator Boxer also said:

"In Tempe, AZ, a woman was murdered by a man who had obtained her home address from that State's DMV.

And, in California, a 31-year-old man copied down the license plate numbers of five women in their early twenties, obtained their home address from the DMV and then sent them threatening letters at home.
It bothers me that there's no true anonymous option on a 1090 system. It bothers me more that all this information is published openly. It's one thing to show "here's where airplanes are" and identify public air carrier flights, but private flights should be anonymized and the registration data should be need-to-know only. Of course, even if all that changed tonight, it would be years (decades?) before all that data turned over.

I'm looking into an LLC for registration simply to hide my personal information, not for liability purposes. Anyone know of a 978 solution that plays well with Dynon? Or a 978 box with built-in Mode C (i.e. not requiring a separate box)?

skylor 12-18-2019 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmartingt (Post 1393711)
On the mild end, imagine someone who despises "those ****ed little airplanes" and uses a tracking website to pick out airplanes flying near their house, then sends threatening letters to the owners...

I don't have to imagine it...been there, lived it. That's why you won't find my N-Number on Flight Aware, MyRadar, etc. See post #8 in this thread.

Skylor


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:15 AM.