Whirlwind Propellers and what now?
 

(previously posted in VAF Classified)

Response from a WW151 user to the recent grounding of many of our props...

Randy,

I've been silent on this because I wanted to see what the truth vs the rumor actually was before I spoke. I carefully read all the work that you did to check out the various props. Being a first time builder, I needed lots of "expert advice". I'm not upset with you necessarily, but with the events that followed your article

1.) Nobody actually had 100+ hours on this prop, so it turns out that most of our belief in it were due to speculation and trust in the company. We were true test pilots for almost a $9K investment.

2.) Jim did not inform any of us (in the Western States particularily) of his intention to sell his company, nor his intention to direct us to Greg at Titan for the numerous issues that have come up (cracked bulkheads, off center spinners, loose fuerrals (sic), the decline from 500 hours factory check in San Diego to now 100 hours (O-360) and 250 hours (O-320) and only in Ohio (that may have changed). To my mind, Jim owes those of us who bought his product from him, expecting easy access to support and repair as needed, the courtesy of all of the above at his shop in San Diego.

3.) I've had nothing but issues with my prop in the 170 hours flown. I've slowly worked (most of) them out, but this latest blow is almost too much.

I would like to suggest that we, as a group, should expect better treatment than to be offered to "buy" the repair to fix the latest issue for $2250.00

I hope that Titan steps up. They obviously made the same mistake we did by buying what looked good, but turned out to be a hornets nest of problems, still requiring to be re-engineered and re-designed. You think we are unhappy? Imagine how they must feel. If this doesn't get resolved they lose bigger than we do.

This prop could be a winner, but growing pains are part of any business. If Titan steps up, I can keep mine and eventually applaude them for making things right by the customers they inherited (and sold the same product to from Ohio). I don't like paying for someone's R and D. Bad enough we have to cope with the anxiety of running a questionable, possibly fatal, prop on our nose (I flew mine 400 miles home today) without being offered a promise that all of WW coustomers will be made whole, and that the company will work with us "test pilots' to make the product safe.

Ron Patterson
RV-4

Ron, I hear you and I'm in almost exactly the same boat. I also ordered my prop just before the sale to Titan.

I love the performance, weight, and smoothness of this prop, but it has to be safe and reliable.

I think there are mixed messages going around, but in my discussions today there is a 100 hour service interval for all the props, regardless of which engine they are installed on, unless you buy the new (untested and unwarranted) blades for $2250 which increases the service interval to 350 hours.

For me, each round trip to the factory adds about $600 in shipping, and the $500 fee on top of that means an extra $11/hour to operate the prop, let alone amortize initial cost.

I'm currently trying to decide between the Aerocomposites and the Hartzell. The Hartzell is much cheaper, but I'll have to move all kinds of stuff around in the airplane to get the CG back where I want it.

Have to relate an experience with Whirlwind blades on a Subaru powered Glasstar. These are new blades manufactured in late March. After 3hrs the blades developed cracks in the tips and when you squeeze the area uncured epoxy oozes out. They recieved the blades Monday and we still havn't heard back from them. Makes me nervous about what we will get back. Don

Inspections
 

I also purchased a WW200RV from the company when it was in San Diego. I only had a couple of issues with the prop. 1) I had a seal go out at 55 hours. The prop was returned and fixed. 2) I also had the spinner plate crack (as most have). Repaired and replaced.

I know have 201 hours on the prop. The performance and smoothness is excellent. I am very satisified with the company and their service up to now.

Now, I have to agree 100% with Ron on this issue. I'm very dismayed at their current business plan regarding this issue. I'm not even sure which models it applies to. I believe the current issue involves the 151 series and not the other flavors.

I plan on composing an email to the company later in the day with many of the same thoughts as Ron. One of my concerns is that I have been a very big proponent of their product. Everyone that has been in my plane (RV7 w/ECI IO360) has commented on the smoothness and performance of the prop. I have influenced 4 other people to buy this prop for their RV's. That is bothering me to a degree.

With every problem there must be a solution. My letter to them will outline a proposed fix for the 151 issues and an ongoing plan for the 200RV. I'm not exactly sure what that will be yet.

Off hand I believe they should remedy the issues with the 151 with the company picking up all costs. In the long run this may be cheaper than the potential fall out as the sales tumble.

Everyone who has a Whirlwind propellor should consider writing a well thought out letter to the company expressing your concerns. I'd urge you to keep it civil, without threats and offer a solution.

Sorry this is so long. I cannot believe that WW will not hear us and seek a solution to the satisfaction of everyone. I'm one, along with others, who has drank the Kool-aid. Now I want satisfaction before the poison takes affect.

I guess I missed something - Could someone explain what this is all about? Is there an issue specific to the 151 props? I have a 200RV prop but no time on it yet. I dont see much on the Whirlwind web site - a 2005 service letter requires 50 hr inspections of the bulkhead brackets.

erich weaver

I am a not so proud owner of a 151 Whirlwind. I assume that anyone with a 150 or 151 propeller received the same Service Bulletin letter this week. I called tha factory in Ohio to find out more and was told that the alluminum ferruled blades were experiencing fretting and they would need to be either inspected every 100 hours or replaced with the new "H" style blades at a cost of $750 each plus a tear down fee that is prorated somewhere between $100 to $500. Just a year ago i replaced the blades at a cost of $1500.

This is getting to be one pricy propeller. It is the smoothest one that i have ever flown behind though. I feel for Titan. They bought the problems and now have to deal with them. Whether or not they want to lower the upgrade costs is up to them but would do a lot to promote their product line in the end.

I don't know who is producing the new blades. If it is still the guy in San Diego, then he should be selling them to Titan at greatly discounted prices, as this whole mess is truly his doing anyway.

Since i have just 65 hours on the new blades, i will continue to fly this summer and see what shakes out with Whirlwind. If the price doesn't come down then i think it is time for me to go back to Hartzell. Lesson learned the hard way!

Steve Ciha

Since this stuff was all new to me and I wasnt sure from the above posts whether there were any issues regarding the 200RV prop, I called Greg at WW today.

For others benefit, the SB issue regarding the blade retention system is limited to the 151 props. The 200RV prop has a completely different blade retention system (McCauley) and is not affected.

According to Greg, " a few" 200RV props have had an issue with cracking of the mounting brackets at the bulkhead, per the existing service letter on their website. He has a modification to the two bulkhead halves that fixes this issue, and recommended that I send mine in to accomplish this. He indicated he could turn this around within 1-2 days. To date, he has not had any recurring problems on bulkheads for which this mod was completed.

regards

erich

Whirl Wind Aviation Customer Service
 

Dear Vans Airforce forum members,

I would like to invite any of you to contact me directly with questions on the Whirl Wind propeller. I am seeing incorrect information get posted on this site, and I would like to make sure the truth is communicated. I cannot monitor this site as often as I would like, so please feel welcome to contact me via email or phone if you have specific questions or comments.

The recent service letter only affects the 150/151 series propeller on O/IO-360 engines only. All other models of Whirl Wind propellers are unaffected, and service intervals vary by propeller model and remain unchanged. The affected 151 owners that are not in warranty are being offered the new updated blades at below Whirl Wind cost. The retail price is $4500 for a set of 3 - 151H blades, and the service letter price is $2250. This service also includes additional updates to 151H specs at no additional cost.

All propeller companies will have service letters and AD?s, and some are quite expensive. Whirl Wind strives to always put the customer first, and rather than sweep a potential issue under the carpet, we inform our customers and provide proven solutions.

Whirl Wind is a company that produces innovative propellers developed specifically for the unique requirements of sport aircraft. We are here to support your efforts.

Sincerely,
Bill Koleno
440-275-1540
whirlwindaviation@yahoo.com
Customer Service Director
Whirl Wind Aviation

Bill, I know that you are in a difficult position, but in one of our conversations yesterday, you specifically told me that the Mandatory SB applied to 150/151 series props on (I)O-320s as well.

The inspections would be much more palatable if they could be performed at a prop shop rather than the factory, since the shipping each way for a three-bladed prop is very expensive. I paid over $300 one way in 2005, when costs were lower. Also, this is plainly a design defect, and WW is charging retail labor for the inspection. Prorated yes, but still full retail.

The cost you quote for swapping out blades may be below your normal retail cost, but you are omitting the cost to the customer of shipping, and the retail labor to possibly fix this manufacturing/design issue. As we discussed, the cost to me given my location in Memphis and the 170 hours on my prop would be (conservatively) more like $3300. The 151(H) blades do increase the (current) inspection interval to 350 hours, but the 151 blades were supposed to do that for the 150 and they didn't make it. The 151(H) blades come with no warranty. None, nada, zip. As we discussed at some length yesterday would make sense if the company were willing to stand behind the blades with a pro-rata warranty to a reasonable TBO, but as it is you are asking your customer base to fund your R&D. If the company doesn't have enough confidence in the blades to warrant them why should we?

You point out that only those out of the 12 month warranty are affected. Fair enough. I think it's important to note the many if not most of those people haven't even flown their props. Zero hours. How many of the 75 or so are within the one year? Those people are also affected significantly because the value of their unflown props has plummeted. Can they get a refund?

As you know, I have been very happy with the performance of the prop. It is quiet, smooth, and the weight makes the CG of my RV-8 almost perfect. The cruise and climb performance are excellent, and I have one of the fastest RVs in my area. The company's response to this problem though, is deeply disappointing.

James Freeman

This is a good start
 

Thank you Bill for your post. Appointing a "point man" for dealing with the problems on the 151 is a good move by WW.

However....this does not go far enough. Randy Lervold has been your major RV supporter, but he now has his WW151 for sale at 60% of what he paid. He has never run it.

There are perhaps 100 or so of us that this particular SB applies to, and the complete fix (new blades) appears to be due to a poor original design, utilizing inadequately strong materials, causing potential in-flight failure.

Let's not forget that it was a propeller problem that caused the crash of the H1 replica....perhaps the most beautiful and perfectly crafted airplane I have ever seen. Days after I saw it at OSH, the Racer and it's builder/pilot were ashes. Propeller failure.

I am sympathetic that Titan may have made a poor business decision to buy WW before the problems were noticed and fixed by it's developer. That, unfortunately, does not absolve Titan of their responsibility to accept responsibility for a faulty product and bear all costs for the new blades, in San diego and wherever else you need to do this repair. If Titan steps up, like other businesses in the public sector have when a product defect is discovered, your business will flourish.

Homebuilding is a relatively small community. WW has enjoyed a huge welcome by enthusiastic builders who believe in you. If you choose to push the responsibility downhill to your customers, then I believe we will be looking elsewhere for propellers. I invite any discussion of a compromise.

Sincerely,
Ron Patterson
510-421-2316
N8ZD@yahoo.com