Repairman Certificate
 

Questions about getting the repairman certificate.
RV-7A complete. Phase I is complete. So I'm headed to FSDO office on Monday to apply for repairman certificate. But questions:

1) Am I applying for a "Repairman" or "Mechanic with Airframe"? EAA says Repairmant, but instructions from FSDO say Mechanic

2) Do I need to re-read and bone up on the FAA's instructions and manuals for how to do aircraft maintenance work? I thought I just had to prove I built mine, but the FSDO office sent me a bunch of manuals.

3) Are there any other surprises I should know? I plan to take all my documentation and construction log.

thanks

If you built it you are applying for "Repairman".

All you should have to do is prove that you built it with some kind of log. Mine was a video log.

Although the type of log isn't specified in the rule, mine also wanted a written log with the steps I took, so I politely pointed them to the RV-14A manual.

Took me all of 15 minutes at the FSDO to get the temporary certificate and about 6 weeks for the permanent one to show up in the mail.

What's supposed to happen -

Repairman - Experimental Aircraft Builder (see https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id..._1104&rgn=div8 )

For this the instructions are at : http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?...Vol.5,Ch5,Sec5

Mechanic - For this the instructions are at : http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?...Vol.5,Ch5,Sec2

I think a fair summary is that the basis for the Repairman certificate is you built the aircraft and are able to make the condition inspection based on this experience. The basis for the A&P is the minimum experience spelled out at https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...5_177&rgn=div8 .

Based on your build, I would expect that you could qualify for the Mechanic - Airframe. But, probably not the Powerplant rating (unless you have other experience than the build). Unless you have both ratings, you can't use the mechanic certificate to sign off the condition inspection. With the repairman certificate, you can sign off the condition inspection.

I would think your best approach would be to apply for the Repairman certificate and then add the Mechanic certificate/ratings at a later time.

Dan

Well all I can say is every FSDO is different. I spent over an hour getting grilled on basic airframe and power plant knowledge with the focus (like 90%) being on the power plant until he was satisfied I knew enough to safely maintain the airplane. Although I had my build log with me he never looked at it as he knew I had built the plane.

Oh I and I applied for the Repairman's Certificate as well.

Get a copy of AC 65-23A that describes what is necessary for the Repairman's Certificate to be issued. As Todd mentioned, expect anything from a cursory paperwork exercise to an all out grilling. The AC section gives the inspector a lot of leeway. Excerpt "Demonstrate to the certificating FAA inspector the ability to perform condition inspections and to determine whether the subject aircraft is in a condition for safe operation"

My experience was quite frustrating but it ended with my certificate being issued.

I've received two Repairman Certificates from the Seattle FSDO (Fisher Dakota Hawk and Vans RV-7). Both times, I submitted the single page document requesting the cert, received a phone call with some really basic aviation banter, and got the cert in the mail a few weeks later. Never had to produce build logs or answer in-depth questions about techniques.

I went to the FSDO, brought the plans, my MX binder and a laptop with my build log downloaded. We talked maybe 15 mins about the build process, assume he just wanted to be sure I built it and that was is. Signed some paperwork and that was it.

If you get the 'mechanic' , does that mean you can sign off on other experimentals that you didn't build?

Yes, if you get a mechanic with airframe and power plant (which is what is referred to as an ?A&P? certificate). However, if you can get a FSDO to authorize you to test for an A&P based on building one airframe, you have found a gold mine, and every homebuilder in the country will be beating a path to their door. It takes a lot more widely varied experince to get most inspectors (who are following the guidelines) to sign off for you to test.

And that is a key phrase ?sign off to test?..... once you have that authorization, you then have three written tests, and oral and a practical to get the A&P. If all you want is an ?A?, which isn?t all that useful in the context of signing off experimental condition inspections, you?ll have two writtens and the oral and practical.

So make sure that the FSDO knows you are applying for a Repairman?s Certificate for your experimental aircraft, unless you are really looking to spend a LOT of time getting your A&P... which, BTW, isn?t a bad thing and you;?re looking for a job. A&P?s are getting scarce in many places, and can be a good job!

Paul

Yes, I know it's a little off topic....
 

Last year, I legally changed my last name and had to go to the FSDO to fill out the paperwork for a new Airman's and Repairman's certificate. When I made the appointment, the examiner asked me if I had a drone license. I said no, and he told me if I would take the on-line test and print the certificate (about 45 minutes), he would be happy to issue me one while I was there.....So I did, even though I'm not sure I will ever use it. Quite a simple exam for already licensed pilots...

Don't know if you have one or are interested, but if you think you might be at some time, consider taking the exam over the weekend..they might accommodate you, issue the "remote pilot" license, and save you a trip later. Just wanted to mention this, because it is such a PITA to get an appointment and travel to my FSDO, which is 75 miles away....

By the way, my examiner was a very nice guy...ymmv.

to expand on what paul said,the experience need to get the A&P must be acceptable to the administrator. if you are trying to go that route, for the most part, that means that you are under the direct supervision of a A&P. since most people do not have an A&P watching over them as they build, the time spent building will not count towards the requirement for the certificate. In my case, it was just an entry on the list of areas covered on the letter my supervising A&P IA submitted to the FAA for me.

the FAA is very reluctant to issue the right to test, based on experience gained working under an A&P, they want to see people go through approved schools. you really need to have your documentation all in order to get them to sign off on it other wise.

i was very lucky in that the inspector was very well informed about my mentor, the flight school we ran, and the work that was being done. if they want, they can ask for copies of time sheets, work logs, and a whole list of things to prove the time was done.

bob burns
RV-4 N82RB

Repairman Certification
 

I went to FSDO and received Repairman Certification today. Only took 20 minutes. I took the print out from MyKitLog.com and that made it fast and easy for them.

BUT one big lesson Learned: Do the Repairman Certificate when you get your aircraft's Airworthy Certificate. Because legally you can't do maintenance to your experimental aircraft unless you have the Repairman Certificate or A&P. Don't wait till the first Condition Inspection is needed. If you have to do some changes during Phase I testing you can't legally do it without the repairman certificate.

FSDO FAA guy told me he had a builder come in and proudly showed him his airframe's log book with entries for maintenance he had done during Phase I and the first year, but all prior to the first condition inspection. He said while he was receiving his Repairman Certificate he also got written up for performing aircraft maintenance without a license. Don't be that guy.

Unless I’m completely off my rocker, this is factually incorrect. You cannot performance the condition inspection, but anyone can do maintenance on an experimental, whether it be a repairman, A&P, or the hobo on the street corner, as long as it is recorded in the logbook.

Really Steve?

From the posts by Mel and others, you can do maintenance but not the annual condition inspection unless you have the Repairman (or A&P) cert.

Sounds like your FSDO FAA guy needs some education.

Finn

As others have noted Steve, this is incorrect, but its typical of FSDO inspectors who don't deal with Experimentals very often. They like to speak with authority about the regs, even when they don't know what they are. The best ting to do in cases like this is smile and nod, say ?thank you?, and get out of there with your certificate - then research the regs yourself.

We?ve got a long-time inspector at the Reno FSDO who insists that experiemntals need to have all of the instruments called out in part 61.205, when if you actually READ the reg, it says it only applies to aircraft with a ?Standard airworthiness certificate? - not special A/W, such as experimental. We just dont worry about him, as all the other inspectors are great!

Paul

This is totally, 100% false. But it is what a lot of FAA ASI's believe (and will tell you, and it is usually not worth spending any time debating it with them).

There is a lot of past discussion here in the forums but the key reason is FAR 43.1,B which says -

(b) This part does not apply to any aircraft for which the FAA has issued an experimental certificate, unless the FAA has previously issued a different kind of airworthiness certificate for that aircraft.

FAR43.1,B is the applicability part of FAR 43. FAR 43 is the who, how, where part of the FARs regarding maintenance and inspections of aircraft.

BTW, this is actually why the FAA issues an operating limitation stating who can do the annual condition inspection and why they issue (just the builder) a Repairmans Certificate..... because FAR43.1,B totally removes any regulatory control of who can do condition inspections on an experimental aircraft.

Finally, if you look at your operating limitations it says you have to be a Repairman (or an A&P) to do the condition inspection, but it doesn't say anything about maintenance, repairs, etc.
And because it doesn't, and FAR43.1 says that none of FAR 43 that regulates who can do maint., and preventative maintenance, and repairs, anyone can do them.

Scott has everything down pat. Good description.

I've been dealing with this probably longer than your FAA Guy has been with the FAA and I assure you that the repairman certificate is NOT required for maintenance, or even for major modifications.

UPDATE on when to get Repairman Certificate
 

CORRECTION: I received an email tonight from the FAA guy at the FSDO office correcting what he told me earlier about needing the Repairman Certificate in order to do maintenance on your experimental. He said, he was thinking of part 135.

Weird because I pushed back, but only a little, when he said I couldn't even change the oil without the Repairman Cert. But I didn't want to argue with a Fed. in his building. So I guess a builder is okay waiting to get the Repairman Cert anytime during the first year before the first Condition Inspection is due.

Kudos to the FAA Inspector for contacting you to correct his error.

+1 The guy is good for getting back to you to clarify the issue. He may be your new "go to" in that FSDO.

There's another route to getting your A&P not listed in this thread, the light sport rule allows an LSRM to apply for authorization to take the A&P written and practical exams after working in the field for 30+ months under his or her own supervision. You earn a Light Sport Repairman Certificate with Maintenance rating in a 15 day course (it was 3 weeks when I took it) and then all your build work will count towards the 30 months to take the A&P test.

This article is about one guy who did it: https://www.aviatorshotline.com/cont...rization-ap-ia

FAA Inspectors Handbook. Order 8900.1 Volume 5 Chapter 5 Section 6
paragraph 5-1253.

5-1253 CREDIT FOR LIGHT-SPORT AIRCRAFT PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE
TOWARD MECHANIC QUALIFICATION REQUIREMENTS UNDER TITLE 14 CFR PART 65,
SECTION 65.77. A repairman (light-sport aircraft) with a maintenance rating
may document time working on either ELSA or SLSA. To apply for a mechanic's
rating the repairman must show that he or she has at least 18 months of
practical experience working on either powerplants or airframes, or that he
or she has at least 30 months of practical experience working on airframes
or powerplants concurrently. One month's practical experience is 160 hours
of documented time.

It's still a lot of work, the A&P tests are comprehensive and 30 months x 160 hours = 4,800 hours, but it is another avenue toward A&P.