Fair question (no example too trivial for me, but I'm notoriously meticulous (my wife would probably say "anal")). :)

I would note the entire sum spent on the rivet purchase for my records and submit that for tax at the appropriate time. I know that I'm shorting myself a bit, but I long ago decided to err on that side rather than guesstimating the other way.

I'd probably have told Buyer 2 that he's second in the queue and that I felt obligated to at least offer Buyer 1 the opportunity to match his offer. Then call Buyer 1 and describe the situation. If Buyer 1 will match the offer and immediately submit the same deposit, then the plane is his. If not, then thank him for his time and let Buyer 2 proceed.

When acting as a buyer, while I'll never ask the "what's the least you'll take for it" question, I always ask, in one form or another, "since nothing's perfect, what's wrong with it?" Sometimes I'll ask, were the owner to keep it, what are the next three things he'd be looking to address/fix.

Those questions nearly always elicit some honest conversation and help me to arrive at a fair (to me, anyway) offer.

I'm with you 100%. I had a similar situation about five years back where I'd accepted an offer from a friend for a very nice Colt Python and gave him a month to get the funds together. About halfway through that period, another guy offered me nearly 25% over the amount I'd agreed to accept from my friend and I initially told him that I needed to pass. My friend couldn't match the offer (no need for him to do so since we'd already agreed on a price) and wouldn't let me take the loss; he insisted that I sell it to the other guy. I did, but gave my friend a good-sized gift card to the Capital Grille in appreciation.

Sure, if you only have $50K, then be upfront, say exactly that, and ask if there's any possibility. I'd be fine with that as a seller. Simply asking, however, if a seller is negotiable (in the blind, as it were), is asking him to undercut himself without even an offer on the table. I'd tell that buyer that I don't play games or overstate my asking prices and that my bottom-line price is the advertised figure.

How about sellers etiquette, the person that sends old pictures , misrepresents overall condition, only to find out after spending travel time and money.

As a seller I would be ok with someone asking how how negotiable I am vs "What's your bottom dollar". Those are two entirely different questions in my mind. The first is just asking if the price is firm, then second is trying to make me negotiate against myself.

Don't even go there! :eek:

I've been in the position of trying to sell an airplane that's largely painted white in color. Of course in this part of the world we have snow, lots of snow. White airplanes don't show up well against a snow background. Plus winter light typically is pretty poor for photography unless one gets one of those fairly rare clear blue sky days where it's frigid but at least sunny.

I've had one potential buyer tell me that my pictures, taken late in the autumn, weren't current enough to merit him driving 1.5 hours to come see the airplane. Instead he wanted me to go to the hangar on a crappy, grey day, shovel the snow from in front of the hangar, haul the airplane out and take new pictures with the date emblazoned on them to satisfy his need for current photos. No thanks, life is too short for that.

I don?t have much experience selling aircraft however I have bought and sold a lot of sports cars as a hobby. I had one car that was perfect. 12,000 miles and not a scratch on it. Book value was a well established 28,000. I listed the car for 28,500 since it was a 1% car condition wise. First buyer showed up and did a long test drive which was a bit more aggressive than my liking. Told him it was time to head back to end it. He offered me 19,000 cash. I said no thanks. He said aren?t you going to make a counter offer. I said I had no counter to 19,000. He said you always counter so I said ok, 29,000. He said that?s ridiculous since I was asking 28,500. I said no more ridiculous than your offer goodbye.
Second buyer showed up, looked at the condition of the car and service records and wrote a check for 28,500 without even a test drive!
George

Tax
 

"Fair question (no example too trivial for me, but I'm notoriously meticulous (my wife would probably say "anal")).

I would note the entire sum spent on the rivet purchase for my records and submit that for tax at the appropriate time. I know that I'm shorting myself a bit, but I long ago decided to err on that side rather than guesstimating the other way."

Fair enough. I estimate because I have a virtual hardware store in my workshop; I use the AN hardware , etc. on other aircraft...including some other builders...you know, those guys working on their project on a Sunday and find that they are short a bolt or a few rivets...

Not to mention it is usually cheaper to buy, for example, a package of 100 washers or nuts. You get a discount and the shipping remains the same...

I have in the past been the bad seller (unintentionally). I was once selling a motorcycle (have sold a lot of motorcycles). I was contacted by a buyer and arranged a day/time for him to see the bike. In the meantime I was contacted by another buyer. I told him I already had someone coming. He was welcome to come after, but the bike may be sold by then, so we arranged a time an hour after the first buyer was set to arrive. Well, the first buyer was a good 45 minutes late and the second was 15 minutes early, so they arrived at the same time. At that point now I look like I am trying to play once against the other. I just took the first buyer aside and we talked, he ended up buying the bike. I still felt bad though.

Sold my Tiger. First caller sent a purchase agreement. Had 10 other SOLID prospects with numbers 2-6 also sending purchase agreements in case #1 fell out (he almost did - needed a bank loan). I had complete scanned logs for everyone and a million photos (hint: pull the plane out in the sun and DON'T take photos in the hangar). Plane sold FAST even with the bank delay. As a miracle, not ONE tire kicker:rolleyes:

Perfect, worthy of an inspirational poster.

Then you should not feel bad, he truly had a chance and assumed the risk.

Sticky, I hope
 

Reading this thread with great interest. I hope it earns a Sticky.

I may be shopping soon, and have not been buying and selling vehicles as a career, sideline business, or hobby like a few in this thread self-report. Thanks for sharing perspectives from both sides of the transactions.

We?re fortunate to be operating (at least within the US) with free long distance calls, email and texting to share pictures and documents in seconds, etc. Seems like taking the time to share clear expectations and eventually agree on those expectations is critical.

I hope that people I deal with will take the time to discuss expectations.

Carl
..

In my late teens I had a boss that used to say ?Cash talks and bull walks?.
If you are a serious buyer then you need to be ready to move quick. Not schedule a flight a week later.
I had a short discussion about selling my plane before my wife told me not to.
Buyers first question over the phone before seeing the plane was ? What is your bottom dollar??
I pulled the plane from the sale as that one irritates me.

My take
 

His fault.

A prospective buyer should and must assume that an item remains for sale unless and until that prospective buyer locks it up somehow (usually by paying something for a time-limited option to buy, sometimes just by agreement, etc. etc.).

You could have offered such a transaction, but you can't be blamed for failing to do so.

I may be biased. I once got in ahead of a potential buyer who was traveling to look at a -9A. Which is now mine. :)

Just a few of my sells along the way
 

It can be tough sifting through the fast talkers and even tiring.

Had a nice boat advertised this spring. guy calls and is very interested seems to be serious and at the time I really think he was but he could not get off work to come look at it. I made the mistake of holding it for him. Many many calls came in with others wanting to buy but I kept telling them a guy spoke for it. long time later 1st caller backed out didn't even show up. All the other callers had found a different boat and moved on........had to search out new potential buyers again because all the current buyers were familiar with the add and thought it was not available.

Sold the RV-4 to a guy who sent me the money for the trip to fly it to his state, took him on a ride in it and he handed me some cash and some Canadian 1 oz gold leaf coins and I was on the way. never even took the cowling off.

Advertised one of the RV-10's got a bunch a calls but no promises. One guy wanted to secure it so I told him I would sell him the option to buy it for $1000 non-refundable up to 10 days but applied to the sale if he purchased. He sent the $1000 I waited a week for him to arrange looking at it and a pre buy. Pre buy was completed and he backed out. I kept the $1000 for holding the plane. Next buyer comes along did the same, sent $1000 to hold it for him non re fundable but he called the same pre buy inspector, inspector sold him the information from the previous pre-buy so buyer just came over and picked up the airplane, his $1000 deposit was applied to the sale.


Pretty much did the same thing on the Carbon Cub and worked fine but first depositor bought it did his own inspection by calling a reputable CC guy on the phone and walked him through it. I did find that some callers balked and walked away when I asked for a non refundable deposit......what security is a "refundable" deposit anyway?????

One thing I am realizing here is that most of the people posting on this thread are dealing with meticulously manufactured and maintained equipment, that may very well be the top 5% of all examples.

The reality that I see when shopping for high end motorized vehicles is that there are a lot more $100,000 RV7?s that are worth about $70,000 given the issues with them, than there are $100,000 RV7?s that are worth $102,500.

What I mean is that when you start shopping as a buyer it can get real frustrating sorting through all the examples for sale because every RV7 seller believes his should be advertised for $100,000. I use the model and specific price only as an example. It holds true, in my experience, across old European cars, airplanes, wooden boats, etc.

When I used to deal in 70?s Porsche?s I would always have the local Porsche shop conduct a thorough inspection and provide that to any prospective buyers at first contact. Kind of like having Vic Syracuse perform an annual and document it for the buyers, in RV speak. That would probably weed out a lot of low ballers and tire kickers, while solidifying your perceived value.

I have bought several houses and sold 1. What a pain in the a$$ to sell a house. This is the exact thing I plan to do the next time I sell a house, have an inspection done that is part of the package they sign when making an offer. Anything in the inspection already stated must be stated in offer if they want fixed or not. I was strung out more than once for months at a time, to only have them come back wanting a whole list of things done. In particular this was a house that was vacant, so I was paying utilities, mortgage for months.

I would imagine the same thing would be helpful in the airplane sales and as a buyer would surely make me feel more comfortable also.

I got burned on a car sale one time by agreeing to hold the car for a deposit. When the buyer could not arrange financing she came back with her tale of woe and a request for a refund of her deposit. After that experience, I accept no deposits. It?s ?whoever shows up first with the money.?

As a buyer, I would find this unacceptable. Most high-end items are being purchased far from where you?re located. The chances of finding that meant condition 1970 Porsche 914-6 In your own backyard, or finding the perfect RV-8 you?ve been looking for in your own backyard, are pretty slim. That means I am arranging financing perhaps, at least paying travel expenses.

I typically ask to provide a deposit, fully refundable if the item is not as described. If the inspection uncovers significant issues that were undisclosed I get my deposit back. The reality is, the seller already has something of worse. The buyer is the one that is extending all of the trust. I can?t tell you how many times I?ve tried to purchase a significant item, only to discover that it was not even remotely as described. For the most part, a seller is not out anything if a buyer does not come through. Conversely, the buyer invest money and pre-purchase inspections, travel expenses, financing expenses, etc.

I guess it?s all in perspective. In the example I gave earlier, the seller of a project on this site refused a deposit from me. He said he didn?t want to hassle with the deposit. He said he would absolutely hold the aircraft until Thursday to allow me property to get a flight out there. He then sold it on Tuesday.

To me, no matter how you dice it, that was bad business. If you tell somebody will do something, then you need to do it. It doesn?t matter what they do. At the end of the day, I stand before God accountable for my own actions. I?m in the situation originally described here, I think I would have contacted seller number one and offered them a chance. Obviously, I don?t know all the circumstances of every sale that?s been referenced in this thread. However, I have a hard time believing that all the buyers just disappear if you hold your item for an extra day or two. In my experience it takes months to find the item you?re looking for, often. More likely, all of those buyers that disappeared weren?t real buyers anyways.

Think of it as if you?re running a business. If the actions you just engaged in incline your clients to repeat business with you, great. If the action you engaged in would alienate your clients, then it?s probably the wrong thing. Imagine for a moment, calling the store across town to find out if they have an item available. They tell you yes, you asked them to hold it for you while you get there. They agree. When you arrive 15 minutes later, they tell you that they already sold. Would you continue going back to that store, trusting them with your business?

One other, slightly unrelated, thought. My dad used to always say that in Theory a good deal is when everyone walks away happy. But in practice it?s more likely to be that everyone walks away slightly disappointed, feeling that they could?ve gotten a little bit better deal. What he meant was that in most bad deals one person is happier than the other. In most good deals everyone has about the same attitude whether it is happy or thinking maybe they could have gotten a little more out of the other party.

Communication is key. The seller is always in control and the buyer rarely is. If you are a buyer and the seller has not thought about this part of the sale, then an opportunity exists to take control and tell him what you need to be a perspective buyer. "I'm on my way, I'll be there in four hours. But if you won't agree to hold to for me until I see it then I won't waist my time." I suggest sellers do the following

1) Establish the rules for any sale before you item is listed. (All buyer will respect you for doing this.)

2) Communicate clearly to every potential buyer what the rules are. (All buyer will respect you also for doing this.)

So, If someone is "on the way" should you hold it for him?
IF someone shows up with Cash, does he become King and thus snipes out all others?
If someone wants to have a pre-purchase inspection done, have you made a commitment for the sale to that person if another will buy it sight unseen?

It will provide comfort and set a healthy & trustworthy tone for the sale if an agreement is entered into by both parties after the potential buyer wants the aircraft. That contract should say "I will buy your airplane contingent upon...
-My seeing it and liking it.
-a satisfactory pre purchase mechanical inspection, and
-maybe other contingencies,
-and here is a deposit to show my sincerity. If I back out, then agree how the deposit will be returned.

So, If cash is King for the sale of your aircraft, then clearly state that to the potential out of state buyer. If a deposit enough for the seller to be faithful to the buyer until an inspection, and financing can be lined up, then state so and be faithful to yourself and the potential buyer. A simple written agreement will give a lot of peace and clarity, but maybe just communicating clearly is all that is needed.

If you are selling and want Cash to be King and clearly communicate it, then the guy was on his way, driving as fast as he can knows that he might loose the aircraft to another buyer. Fair enough, but we gave clarity and removed unmet expectations by using clear communication.

+1

ABSOLUTELY GREAT RECOMMENDATION!!! IN WRITING, SHARED BY EMAIL TO ANY/EVERY PROSPECTIVE BUYER!!! SELLER DEFINES THE ?RULES?, BUYER ACCEPTS OR MOVES ON...

BOTH PARTIES, BE HONEST!!!

Carl
..

I have used a generic sales agreement similar to the one below when selling aircraft. If this is disclosed to the buyer in advance, it eliminates a lot of questions about how to proceed. the original version of this came from the AOPA website, and I do not know if it is still available there.

1. Sale of Aircraft. Seller agrees to sell to Buyer(s) and Buyer(s) agree to purchase from Seller the following Aircraft (the "Aircraft"):
Aircraft Make XXX Aircraft Model XXX
Aircraft Year XXXX 
Aircraft Registration Number NXXXX 
Aircraft Serial Number XXXXX Engine Type XXXXX-XXXXXX Engine hours XXXXX
Seller warrants that Aircraft is as described in the advertisements, photos and documents supplied to buyer.
Seller warrants that Seller holds legal title to the Aircraft and that title will be transferred to Buyer(s) free and clear of any liens, claims, charges, or encumbrances. Upon delivery of the Aircraft and payment of the balance of the purchase price, in accordance with this Agreement, Seller shall execute a bill of sale granting good and marketable title to the Aircraft.

2. Consideration. It is agreed that the price of the Aircraft is $XXXXXXX and is due on delivery of the Aircraft. All monies paid in accordance with this Agreement will be made by cash, cashier's check, certified check, wire transfer, or equivalent.

3. Deposit. The Buyer(s) shall pay a deposit of $XXXXXXX. The deposit is non-refundable except as stipulated below, in this section. The deposit shall be credited to the purchase price of the Aircraft.

4. Pre-purchase Inspection. After the signing of this Agreement, the Buyer(s) shall have the right to perform a pre-purchase inspection of the Aircraft. Such inspection shall be at the Buyers? expense and may be performed by an individual of Buyers? choice.
Upon completion of this inspection, Buyer(s) shall have two (2) days to notify Seller that they will or will not purchase the Aircraft for any reason. If Buyer(s) elect not to purchase the Aircraft, the Buyer(s) shall notify Seller of this decision. Upon receipt of such notice, Seller is entitled to keep Buyer?s deposit and the transaction is terminated.

Buyer(s) shall present to the Seller any list of discrepancies compiled. The Seller shall have two (2) business days to review the list and to notify the Buyer(s) of Seller's decision: (a) to pay to have the discrepancies repaired at Seller's expense and to complete the sale; or (b) to decline to pay the costs of repairs and to terminate the Agreement, or (c) negotiate a new purchase price, not less than the original price minus the cost of any repairs required to correct any discrepancy noted in the inspection report.

If Seller declines to pay the cost of repairs, and Buyer(s) agree, Seller shall refund, or have refunded, the Buyers? entire deposit on termination of this agreement.

I was shopping for C185’s a few years ago. I had a buddy fly me up to Placerville (2-ish hour flight) to look at one that was promising. It had every one of my must-have STCs, and appeared to be ‘the one’.

We had spent several hours looking it over (it was apart for an annual) and speaking with the broker when we went for a quick lunch. On the way out the door, I asked if I needed to be worried about him selling it while I was gone. He laughed and said he wouldn’t do that. When we came back from lunch, the seller had that guilty look a dog has when they’ve eaten a roll of toilet paper and spread it all over the house.

He’d taken a deposit for the airplane while I was at lunch.

Now, I don’t know how long he’d been talking with the other buyer, but the fact that I was told one thing, and another thing happened still pisses me off to this day, and I will never use or recommend their services as a result.

It’s especially frustrating when something happens to me that I’d NEVER do to someone else. I’d never make it as a car salesman.

Agree totally. Anyone who says one thing and does another is forever a fiend in my book and I will happily tell any and all the level of trust and respect they should afford said fiend.

Back to the original post though - if someone asks me my bottom dollar I usually say that any offer is welcome or ask them what they think the market value of the item is. This puts it back in their court. I don?t get offended though. Virtually every item for sale on planet earth is negotiable. For all a buyer knows, the seller has been trying to sell for months and has just now decided that 20% discount for cash today will make the deal.

I agree that there are better ways to communicate that but at the end of the day many buyers you thought were super serious and said all the right things were actually tire kickers and many buyers who asked what your bottom dollar is were serious and you missed them by getting ticked at their lack of verbal polish.

I confess that I have asked for a bottom dollar before but I cannot recall ever calling somebody when I was not earnestly interested in buying their item.

And you would not be buying from me.
Regardless of all the pontifications in this thread, the seller sets the rules.

so if the ''what's the least you will take'' is unacceptable do sellers take offense at an offer lower than they would take?
i usually do not buy something used and pay the asking price. that's just how the game is played. if the seller accepts my lower offer though, the deal is done. what if you answer the buyers question and he says ''sold''? seems like just another version of the same game.

Might be worthwhile to note that salesmen in any industry are on the receiving end of poor buyer etiquette far more often than the occasional seller. And pros avoid generalizations based on race, creed, gender....and occupation.

Some do, some don't.

There are very few absolute 100%-of-the-time rules in price negotiation. There are things with low probability of success.

I would offer this advice to all sellers; never be angry about an offer. The buyer just said "I will buy", which is a step in the right direction.

Romance and offering cash are also versions of the same game, but one usually nets a smile while the other usually results in a face slap.

That?s just wrong! I don?t blame you for being upset.

I had two buyer's show up at the same time. I previously had given both time slots however buyer 2 showed up a few minutes ahead of buyer 1. Within minutes, buyer 2 said he would take the airplane. Well, buyer 1 also wanted the plane so I honored his #1 position and sold it to him. A very uncomfortable situation.

On another transaction I had two buyers interested, one from Canada and the other stateside. The Canadian buyer was willing to purchase sight unseen as long as the aircraft complied with Canadian airworthiness requirements. The second buyer was also a cash buyer. The Canadian sent me photos of his beautiful dog, meticulous hangar, and sports car. No doubt he would have been a great caretaker of the plane, however, I chose the other buyer. I felt bad about this but it boiled down to making a timely and uncomplicated transaction.

Later this month I will be listing another aircraft for sale...I really hate this process! But maybe this will be the last time I have to do this...maybe???

I've sold 5 planes and I'd rather do that than buy a car...heck, I'd rather fly the airlines than buy a car, and that's saying something! :eek:

"It Never Hurts To Ask."
 

Quite a while ago, I did some business with someone in the entertainment industry. The details don't matter. What matters is the lesson I learned.

The other party made a very lowball suggestion and saw by my expression that it had been the wrong thing to ask. That party then defused the issue by simply noting that "it never hurts to ask." I thought about it for a few minutes and decided not to walk, as I was thinking I ought to.

We ultimately did come to a deal that was mutually satisfactory, and as a result, some excellent stuff got released.

After that incident, I didn't take offense at things people suggested while a deal might be pending. Didn't mean that I always played it the same way or that we always ended up doing business, just that it was one thing to consider while playing that game.

Dave

This is true. The seller sets the rules and can sell to anyone, in any fashion they choose. I just try to live my life treating others the way I WANT to be treated not the way I AM often treated. You can either:

1. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you;
2. Do unto others as they do unto you; or
3. Do unto others before they do unto you.

I simply choose the first option.

i bought a used atv yesterday. asking $2000. i offered 1700, seller said i'll take 1800. sold. what laid back seller. no offense taken.

Comments please
 

I?ve never tried this but i will someday until then i think i like the idea. When asked for lowest acceptable offer I say to the buyer ? tell you what, I?ll write my lowest acceptable selling price and you write your highest buying price and we trade pieces of paper and if you are higher than me we split the difference. If you are lower we both walk.?

I recently received a very low ball offer on my airplane via email. I just replied, "Good luck in your search."

I've been watching other For Sale websites on the -12 for several months. The market does appear to be going soft and beginning to see repeat ads and price revisions. A friend whom owns an import auto service center said he as seen a recent drop-off in business and thinks it may be related to concerns over the economy / political climate. He may be right!

The owner used you for his first potential buyer and told him he had an offer coming after lunch from you.