RV-12iS IFR Avionics Package Available for Orders
 

Van's has published the RV-12iS IFR avionics package order form and we are now accepting orders. This package is available for the RV-12iS only when equipped with the Rotax 912 iS engine, due to electrical capacity requirements.

The package includes:

• Two Garmin G3X Touch EFIS screens
• GTN 650 IFR GPS/Nav/Com radio
• Audio panel
• ADS-B Out
• Autopilot servos for pitch/roll
• GMC 307 autopilot control module
• All of the parts/hardware/wiring required to install the system

Options include:

• ADS-B In and Sirius XM receivers
• Finished, powder coated panels with silk-screened placards
• Subtraction of the second EFIS screen

You can find the order form here.

Note that the current Light Sport Aircraft standards (ELSA and SLSA) preclude operation in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC). While aircraft licensed under the LSA standard may be operated "in the system" under Instrument Flight Rules, such as in a training environment, certification as LSA currently prohibits IMC operations. Also note that EAB-licensed aircraft are not restricted in this fashion.

Lead times for RV-12iS avionics packages are currently as long as six months, due to order backlog.

Looks good! Order already placed.

My thoughts on the offering:

1. A little pricey for the XM addition (+$615 in the regular package vs +$855 in the IFR package) (hurts. opted to go with XM only because adding it afterwards means a rip-n-replace of the GDL-50R with a GDL-52R).
2. Same thing for silk screen printing $600 vs $650.. (I didnt choose this option, price wasn't a factor)
3. Otherwise pricing was about what I expected, and the package is what has been advertised since last summer.
4. Thought maybe the GMC307 autopilot panel would be replaced with a GMC507 (see discussion here for the differences)
5. TO/GA button?

Perhaps we'll be seeing those price increases in the regular RV-12iS package too. :-(

Unfortunate.

Hi Rob,

The price difference on the XM addition is actually related to the additional cost of a combined GPS/XM antenna that's used for the GTN650/XM receiver option. A single antenna that enables and connects to both units is used, and it just costs more. The VFR avionics package doesn't have the GTN radio, so it doesn't require the use of that special antenna.

The prices for the silk screened panels are actually the same as in the VFR packages. The difference is based on the number of screens included by default in each package (and the panels costs related to that). The default price for the VFR packages accommodates one screen at $600, whereas the dual-screen option (which is the default selection in the IFR config) is $650 for the panels. You'll find the same prices for single- and dual-screen panel components are on the IFR and VFR packages.

Glad you got your order in. It's a very nice setup. I enjoy flying it!

Ahh got it. Didn't realize there was a silk-screen price difference between VFR (PFD only) and VFR (PFD & MFD).. makes sense. Ok you caught me on that one!

As for the XM stuff.. that makes some sense too.. I didn't even think about the antenna(s).

Despite my list of gripes, I'm actually very excited about this -- since I started my build in Summer of '17, sooooo many options have become available.. most of which I happily integrated without having to undo/redo much.

All I can say is..... WOW 40K!!!! That's just crazy.

Dynon?
 

Wondering if there will eventually be a similar set offered by Van's from the Dynon Group?

No plans at this time. The amount of work necessary to create, document and another package is quite significant. The Garmin system is the package we determined we'd deliver for the -12iS.

There's no doubt an IFR panel is a serious investment! The net difference between the similarly-equipped VFR panel (meaning dual screens, all the autopilot components, ADS-B, etc etc) is about $13K. Between the GTN 650's added cost, our complete wiring harnesses and the various other required components, we did our best to make it as affordable an upgrade as possible.

Apologies if this has been asked and answered previously. If you build an iS and choose to go with the standard VFR Garmin avionics, would you be able to upgrade the plane to this IFR package later on?

NO! Not unless you have money and your partner's approval. :)

It would be possible, but it's not as simple as adding a few components. The IFR package has its own special fuselage harness, and it is quite different: There are 100 or so wires that are different between the two harnesses. Updating after the fact would require you to remove and replace the fuselage wiring harness. You'd also need to buy the various avionics components unique to the IFR package. You'd re-use many of the avionics components of course, but a few items (such as GPS antennas, audio panel, GTN radio, etc.) would be added/replaced/updated. You'd also have to purchase or fabricate new metal panel faces to all installation of the new avionics, of course.

So, it's possible but it would not be just a plug and play upgrade. The RV-12iS electrical diagrams have been updated on the Downloads page on the Van's web site, for people who might be interested in looking at the nitty-gritty details.

E.D- I am far from an expert in the RV12 arena, but give Advanced a call. They do beautiful work on their quick panels and you can pick and chose what you want in both Dynon and the AFS stuff.

Garmin makes great hardware, I just like the AFS and Dynon stuff more and I think the Avidyne radios are far more user friendly than anything Garmin has out there today.

Of course we all have our preferences, and some love Garmin stuff.

Advanced Flight Systems does awesome work for sure! And for someone who's building their RV-12iS as EAB, the sky's the limit on customization, of course. :)

Thank you
 

Thanks to the answers to my question about adding Dynon equipment. I'm a long ways from installing IFR equipment. Just wondering?:cool:

Actual IMC
 

Might be beating a dead horse on this one, but here goes:
1) It is my understanding that if you build as an EAB, you can legally fly in IMC conditions (thinking about cloud cover and not HARD IFR). If you build as E-LSA, flying in IMC is prohibited. I understand the RV-12iST is intended as a trainer for IFR, not to actually fly in IFR conditions, but am seriously considering EAB if only for the actual rare opportunity to fly when there is cloud cover.
2) If you are building EAB, I would also assume the following: Have not priced it out yet, but seems like a basic VFR panel that you add to for IFR capability would be cheaper than the IFR avionics panel option. I am planning on using the 12 to train for my IFR, so maybe not. I am thinking I will be required to fly 3 approaches and they cannot all be via GPS guidance. Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Perhaps you should build as E-LSA. Do your IFR training. Then at that point, consider either buying/building something more suitable for IFR/IMC, OR converting your AW certificate from E-LSA to E-AB.

With that in mind, as long as you document your build as if you're building an E-AB (photos, etc), you should be able to get the Repairman Certificate issued to you too, so you can continue to do your own Conditionals.

Additionally, its possible that by the time all that is finished, the rules regarding IMC flight have changed, perhaps allowing you to make some modifications and bring it into compliance with new standards which would allow IMC.

Don't use that as a plan, because it is not possible.

I do not think it matters if the aircraft is registered as E-AB or E-LSA as long as
it is properly equipped and the operating limitations allow IFR.
Mel, we need your input.

The issue is that LSA (ELSA or SLSA) are not approved for actual IFR.
E-AB doesn't have that limitation.

I stand corrected. Don't use that as a plan. Mel had previously addressed it too 3 years ago here.

Just to expand on my prior posting, I'm starting to think the GTN650 will be a requirement for an IFR trainer. Even though the newer GPS navigators from Garmin are cheaper, if the intent of the RV-12 is to use as an IFR trainer, it sounds like the NAV radio will be a requirement. Better question for a CFII (hopefully someone here can give input), but a GPS only panel, although legal for IFR flight, would not let a student pilot working towards their instrument rating perform 3 different approaches. Better question, what is the minimum panel requirements required by a CFII for a student to earn his/her certificate for IFR?

The thread starter indicates a audio panel is included with this G3X IFR package, but the actual avionics order form does NOT list any. Pictures show a GMA 245. Nowhere is a audio panel or GMA 245 listed as included on that order form. Oversight? or has the audio panel been removed from the package?

Also, is the GTN650 now the enhanced Xi version? or still the previous version? Coming change maybe?

Thanks

Lance

Greg Hughes - any feedback on the autopilot panel question? I had been wondering the same thing. Thanks.

The audio panel supplied for the RV-12iS IFR avionics package is a GMA245 and the autopilot panel is the GMC307. I'll get our web order form updated to include the audio panel model info, looks like I inadvertently left that off.

I need to check on the GTN650 version status. Sorry, I just can't recall here on a Saturday. I will check on that and post again with the details next week when I'm back at work and can dig into that for ya.

$40K and only 1 comm. radio? IFR lost communications is no fun.

[quote=greghughespdx;1423423]The audio panel supplied for the RV-12iS IFR avionics package is a GMA245 and the autopilot panel is the GMC307./QUOTE]

Greg - the autopilot panel question is why is Van's not using the newer GMC507? According to Garmin (g3xpert) they are not selling the 307 anymore except to "some customers who want/require this unit for certification or installation reasons."

Thanks

Here is the plans section on the install. You can see the various components.

https://www.vansaircraft.com/service...ns/42pis_12is/

GMC507
 

I asked Van's support whether they would be upgrading from the GMC307 to the GMC507 and received this response from Rian Johnson, Vice President / Chief Engineer:

Cheers

Thanks for the update.

Lance

42 years of professional flying and 22,000+ hours (plenty of actual IFR day/night), never happened to me once.
Besides that, there are established procedures in place for dealing with that. Just know the procedure and follow the procedure.

I had one NORDO in VMC while VFR on the one day didn?t bring my handheld backup. I was coming in to a towered airport under the Class B. I squawked 7600 and took the light signal. I went to the tower afterward to be sure they had no issues. They said it livened up their day and were thrilled to actually use the light gun once. Only screw up by me was rolling through 7500 on the transponder momentarily while shifting from 1200 to 7600. They said PHX Approach woke up with that!

Scott,

My ELSA RV-12 received it?s AW certificate in March 2012. My operating limits allow night and IFR operations if equipped. I got an email from my DAR clarifying that IFR is authorized for my aircraft if I decide to install the equipment needed to meet FARs and do the required pitot static system test.

Rich

I've read that Rotax's operating instructions prohibit the use of a Rotax engine at night or in IFR conditions unless it is the FAA type-certificated engine, i.e the 912iSc. I didn't think RV-12 used the certified engine, but in the POH it states night flight is allowed if equiped with optional lighting? The POH also states: "Flight in IFR/IMC conditions is prohibited."

That document is informational its not regulatory, that?s the FAA?s job.

The regulatory part is in the FARs and the Operating Limits that are currently being issued under FAA Order 8130-2J. If you are an S-LSA (and only an S-LSA) you will be issued Op-limit #6 requiring you to follow the POH;

(6) This aircraft may only be operated per the manufacturer?s aircraft operating instructions (AOI)[aka POH], including any requirement for necessary operating equipment specified in the aircraft?s equipment list. Night flight and instrument flight rules (IFR) operations are authorized if allowed by the AOI and if the instruments specified in ? 91.205 are installed, operational, and maintained per the applicable requirements of part 91.

If you are an E-LSA you will NOT be issued Op-limit #6.

Also, as Rich noted above, an E-LSA may also be issued op-limit 49;

(49) Instrument flight operations are authorized if the instruments specified in ? 91.205(d) are installed, operational, compliant with the performance requirements of, and maintained per the applicable regulations. All maintenance or inspection of this equipment must be recorded in the aircraft maintenance records and include the following items: date, work performed, and name and certificate number of person returning aircraft to service.

Bingo!
Thank you for underscoring that for us. . :)

Just checked my ELSA OLs and found another requirement in Item 19 which should settle any doubts:

?When filing IFR, the experimental nature of this aircraft must be listed in the remarks section of the flight plan.?

Which means . . . ?

Cool, thanks for the education! :)

Well, Driftdown, ?m not a lawyer and I don?t play one on TV, but I assume any self respecting bureaucrat would be satisfied with: ?This aircraft is an experimental light sport aircraft?. Any Perry Mason?s out there wish to render a pro-bono legal opinion?😜

Rich

Okay . . . thanks Rich. Sounds about right to me.;)