VAF Forums

VAF Forums (https://vansairforce.net/community/index.php)
-   RV General Discussion/News (https://vansairforce.net/community/forumdisplay.php?f=2)
-   -   Panel review request, IFR (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=174145)

jcarne 08-12-2019 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reflex (Post 1365949)
Jeremy,

What program are you using to lay out the panels? Looks nice.

Fred

Thanks Fred. That is SolidWorks I'm using. A skill acquired when I was an engineer. Now I teach it to high school students. Great program. Now that I'm thinking about it I believe you can get a copy through EAA. You are also looking at a render and not just what you see in the program while running it.

N941WR 08-12-2019 08:17 AM

I would replace the Garmin G5 with a Dynon PocketPanel.

The reason is that the PocketPanel does not tie into your pitot or static system. Should one of them be compromised, the PocketPanel will continue to work while the other systems may have issues. The physical display is the same and it only need an electrical connection to charge its internal battery.

BobRV7 08-12-2019 09:10 AM

This is an interesting discussion since I will be doing mine in the near future. I do have a question about the transmit power of some of the Dynon or GRT internal radios since they are all in the 5 to 8 watt range. Is there anyone using them and what is your review of their transmit range. when you fly into a class B 30 mile range you do need a good radio. I have used the internet and haven't heard of any bad or good things about them.

The other question is what everyone is talking about, Where to get cheaper IFR GPS/Nav/com radio

Thanks-Bob

jcarne 08-12-2019 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N941WR (Post 1365990)
I would replace the Garmin G5 with a Dynon PocketPanel.

The reason is that the PocketPanel does not tie into your pitot or static system. Should one of them be compromised, the PocketPanel will continue to work while the other systems may have issues. The physical display is the same and it only need an electrical connection to charge its internal battery.

I already have the pitot and static run up to the front so no problem there. I also wanted a different brand on my redundant attitude indicator. The pocket panel does look like a good option too though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobRV7 (Post 1365996)

The other question is what everyone is talking about, Where to get cheaper IFR GPS/Nav/com radio

Thanks-Bob

haha you figure that one out you let the whole world know. Dang them things are pricey!

BobTurner 08-12-2019 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobRV7 (Post 1365996)
This is an interesting discussion since I will be doing mine in the near future. I do have a question about the transmit power of some of the Dynon or GRT internal radios since they are all in the 5 to 8 watt range. Is there anyone using them and what is your review of their transmit range. when you fly into a class B 30 mile range you do need a good radio. I have used the internet and haven't heard of any bad or good things about them.

The other question is what everyone is talking about, Where to get cheaper IFR GPS/Nav/com radio

Thanks-Bob

VHF radios are essentially line of sight, e.g., to the horizon. All the power in the world won?t help if the receiving station is beyond the horizon. Of course, the higher you go, the further away the horizon is, so airliners up in the flight levels usually equip with a bit more power. But below FL180 5-8 watts is all you need. More important is having a decent antenna installation.
As to lower cost ifr (e.g., ?approved?) gps, Garmin?s latest boxes have brought down the price somewhat. The barrier is the very high cost of obtaining a TSO, and the relatively small market. The only hope I see is if the FAA decides to approve the use of non-TSO?d gps for ifr use. I used to say ?this will never happen?. But recently they have allowed the use of non-TSO?d EFIS units (as an AI replacement, only) in normally certified aircraft. I thought that would never happen either, so there may be hope.

BobTurner 08-12-2019 01:13 PM

Jereme - I like your final layout.
I?d like to add a small suggestion for a few others who, like myself, wear progressive lenses. I taped a vertical strip of paper, with fine lettering, to my panel. Then sat in my normal vfr position, my line of sight going thru the top half of my glasses and out the windscreen. Then, without moving my head, I lowered my eyes and noted which letter was in sharpest focus. That?s where I placed my AI, which resulted in my efis being a bit lower than most installations. But I can go from the gauges to vfr and vice versa with no head movement. This kind of customization is one of the nice things about EAB. Build the airplane You want!

jcarne 08-12-2019 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTurner (Post 1366072)
Jereme - I like your final layout.
I?d like to add a small suggestion for a few others who, like myself, wear progressive lenses. I taped a vertical strip of paper, with fine lettering, to my panel. Then sat in my normal vfr position, my line of sight going thru the top half of my glasses and out the windscreen. Then, without moving my head, I lowered my eyes and noted which letter was in sharpest focus. That?s where I placed my AI, which resulted in my efis being a bit lower than most installations. But I can go from the gauges to vfr and vice versa with no head movement. This kind of customization is one of the nice things about EAB. Build the airplane You want!

Thanks Bob! Now I can finish up my wiring diagram and tap into the VAF brain trust one more time. :D After that should be smooth sailing... haha jk there is always something

Tim Lewis 08-13-2019 06:43 AM

Data base costs
 
One item to consider is the long term cost of nav data updates. Assuming full US coverage, nav data only:

- For the GTN-650 you can choose Jepp data for about $480/year, or the Garmin nav data option for $299/year.
- For the IFD440, I think the only option is Jepp at $480/year.

So it seems that using the Garmin product gives you the option to save about $180/year on nav data costs.

rwthompson67 08-13-2019 07:36 AM

If you remove the Garmin COM radio, are you sure you wouldn't have enough room for all 3 Dynon modules in a vertical layout? The capability of your HDX to send all the frequencies to the Dynon radio for single button selection of GND/TWR/ATIS/ATC/WX is a wonderful convenience and capability that you're giving up by going with the Garmin comm radio.

kiljoy 08-13-2019 07:44 AM

The panel looks great. My only question (and this is a generalized panel question) is why do people put the small backup EFIS like the Dynon D10a or Garmin G5 on the left side of the panel?

It'd seem to me that were you actually in need of the backup due to main EFIS failure and say... sitting in the right seat that your angle of vision to it would be limited?

On yours though I love the simple switch layout.

Draker 08-13-2019 08:33 AM

Not to derail the thread, but something that's still confusing, having read dozens of these panel feedback and panel design threads: What exactly makes a panel an "IFR panel" vs. a VFR panel?

I'm not instrument rated, but may one day go for the rating. For now I'm planning a panel for VFR flying, but I'd like to future-proof it if possible. Is it just a matter of leaving space for some magical instrument that makes your panel IFR, or is there more to it? Where would I go (in the regs or elsewhere) to learn about what's required for instrument flight?

BobTurner 08-13-2019 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draker (Post 1366246)
Not to derail the thread, but something that's still confusing, having read dozens of these panel feedback and panel design threads: What exactly makes a panel an "IFR panel" vs. a VFR panel?

I'm not instrument rated, but may one day go for the rating. For now I'm planning a panel for VFR flying, but I'd like to future-proof it if possible. Is it just a matter of leaving space for some magical instrument that makes your panel IFR, or is there more to it? Where would I go (in the regs or elsewhere) to learn about what's required for instrument flight?

Ryan,
Most of us have op limits that say ifr is allowed if equipped per FAR 91.205. That?s the legal minimum. From that point on it becomes a personal choice, as to (1) what we need/want for backup (with the legal minimum, a single failure could put you in a very bad situation), and (2) what we need/want for navigation (a single VOR would take you enroute, but only in fewer and fewer places are there VOR approaches. An ILS will get you into KLVK, but, legally, you?re also supposed to have a DME to use that approach. There are lots of gps approaches these days, but ifr approved gps boxes are $$$. So lots of decisions need to be made. e.g., do you ?need? an autopilot?) Stop by 311 sometime and I?ll talk your head off on this subject.

BobTurner 08-13-2019 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiljoy (Post 1366229)
The panel looks great. My only question (and this is a generalized panel question) is why do people put the small backup EFIS like the Dynon D10a or Garmin G5 on the left side of the panel?

It'd seem to me that were you actually in need of the backup due to main EFIS failure and say... sitting in the right seat that your angle of vision to it would be limited?
out.

Good question. For me, the answer is that you want that #2 EFIS within your scan, so you can detect a horizon failure on #1. Sort of like keeping the TC in your scan on a conventional panel, when you (*think you*) have an AI. Putting it to the right of the gps is too far right, the left seat guy won?t scan it. As a cfii I frequently fly right seat with all instruments off to the left, and curiously, there is some benefit: I can see GPS moving map, primary instruments, backup instruments, all within my field of vision, and easily detect something not right. You give up some precision (because they?re far away) but you easily see the big picture. My biggest issue is in marginal vfr: going from the instruments (way left) to looking for traffic is a lot of head turning.

Dugaru 08-13-2019 01:02 PM

Good advice
 
+1. My "entire hoopla" in fact went belly up one night on an IFR flight in VMC. The safe completion of the flight was never in doubt, in part because the combination of a G5 with battery backup, and an iPad Mini 3 with Foreflight (mine has the built-in GPS) made the whole experience extremely easy to manage. Great gadgets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hartstoc (Post 1365634)
Consider instead an iPad 11” pro on a ram mount the allows you to aim it right at your eyeballs. When all the other hoopla goes belly up, it and the G5 could save your life.


jcarne 08-13-2019 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Lewis (Post 1366216)
One item to consider is the long term cost of nav data updates. Assuming full US coverage, nav data only:

- For the GTN-650 you can choose Jepp data for about $480/year, or the Garmin nav data option for $299/year.
- For the IFD440, I think the only option is Jepp at $480/year.

So it seems that using the Garmin product gives you the option to save about $180/year on nav data costs.

Thanks for them price updates to make sure we have it budgeted in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwthompson67 (Post 1366226)
If you remove the Garmin COM radio, are you sure you wouldn't have enough room for all 3 Dynon modules in a vertical layout? The capability of your HDX to send all the frequencies to the Dynon radio for single button selection of GND/TWR/ATIS/ATC/WX is a wonderful convenience and capability that you're giving up by going with the Garmin comm radio.

Unfortunately yes, because in the vertical arrangement you can't get the middle unit as high as the two horizontally. It would push the stack too low and then I would have to move the three switches. I suppose it could be done but I don't want to put them switches anywhere else. Also, the GPS would be lower.

In addition, while I do really like those features that the Dynon com offers and I'm sure the radio is great, about 9 out of 10 people I have talked to say the Garmin is better. Although both are probably sufficient.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiljoy (Post 1366229)
The panel looks great. My only question (and this is a generalized panel question) is why do people put the small backup EFIS like the Dynon D10a or Garmin G5 on the left side of the panel?

It'd seem to me that were you actually in need of the backup due to main EFIS failure and say... sitting in the right seat that your angle of vision to it would be limited?

On yours though I love the simple switch layout.

Good question, as Bob stated I want it in my scan of the instruments to make sure there isn't a discrepancy with the main. I know some people may suggest otherwise but I REALLY don't see myself flying from the right seat. The only one I will be training in this plane is the wife and she needs to be able to land from the right seat if anything happens to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draker (Post 1366246)
Not to derail the thread, but something that's still confusing, having read dozens of these panel feedback and panel design threads: What exactly makes a panel an "IFR panel" vs. a VFR panel?

I'm not instrument rated, but may one day go for the rating. For now I'm planning a panel for VFR flying, but I'd like to future-proof it if possible. Is it just a matter of leaving space for some magical instrument that makes your panel IFR, or is there more to it? Where would I go (in the regs or elsewhere) to learn about what's required for instrument flight?

Ya unfortunately to answer this question it is not an easy answer as there are too many combinations of instruments that would do it. Also, I would not consider myself expert enough to try. Your best bet is to really talk to someone on the phone about that one.

Draker 08-13-2019 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTurner (Post 1366273)
Ryan,
Most of us have op limits that say ifr is allowed if equipped per FAR 91.205. That?s the legal minimum. From that point on it becomes a personal choice, as to (1) what we need/want for backup (with the legal minimum, a single failure could put you in a very bad situation), and (2) what we need/want for navigation (a single VOR would take you enroute, but only in fewer and fewer places are there VOR approaches. An ILS will get you into KLVK, but, legally, you?re also supposed to have a DME to use that approach. There are lots of gps approaches these days, but ifr approved gps boxes are $$$. So lots of decisions need to be made. e.g., do you ?need? an autopilot?) Stop by 311 sometime and I?ll talk your head off on this subject.

Thanks, Bob. You previously gave me a tour of your -10's avionics, which was most informative! Would love to continue the chat some time.

Doing some searches for things like "minimal compliance with 91.205" and "IFR equipment requirements" brings up a large number of VAF threads, so I also have a lot of reading to do.

Jereme, great looking panel. I'd be interested in whether or not you ultimately decide against the dual EFIS setup in favor of an iPad or something.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:36 AM.