VAF Forums

VAF Forums (https://vansairforce.net/community/index.php)
-   RV General Discussion/News (https://vansairforce.net/community/forumdisplay.php?f=2)
-   -   "Say Type Experimental..." (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=171006)

lr172 04-28-2019 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saville (Post 1342844)
But they ARE alerted to look for something other than a typical spam can. They are put on a heightened alert. They now know the situation is a trifle bit different than if a cherokee was coming in.

It's really helpful.

Different how? The warbird (under an experimental a/w cert) comes in very differently than the experimental cub clone, both of which are quite different than the typical spam can. I would argue that the RV-10 comes in just like the V35 in my neighbors hanger.

Experimental is so vague of a term, I argue that it doesn't really help other pilots. It is equally as vague as "another plane."

And what if the referenced pilot doesn't know what a hawker is (less common than an RV)? How does he prepare?

I would argue that most pilots will not have RV's at the bottom of their aircraft name recognition list. Many other uncommon aircraft name that brings the same risk as you define. If this was the FAA's concern, aircraft identification and naming would be on the private pilot exam.

Larry

Saville 04-28-2019 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lr172 (Post 1342858)
Different how? The warbird (under an experimental a/w cert) comes in very differently than the experimental cub clone, both of which are quite different than the typical spam can. I would argue that the RV-10 comes in just like the V35 in my neighbors hanger.

Experimental is so vague of a term, I argue that it doesn't really help other pilots. It is equally as vague as "another plane."

And what if the referenced pilot doesn't know what a hawker is (less common than an RV)? How does he prepare?

I would argue that most pilots will not have RV's at the bottom of their aircraft name recognition list. Many other uncommon aircraft name that brings the same risk as you define. If this was the FAA's concern, aircraft identification and naming would be on the private pilot exam.

Larry

I explained how it was different.

And I would argue exactly the opposite....from personal experience both what I was aware of before 2015 and the fact that pilots who come up to me to look at the plane ask me what brand/kind of plane it is. They do not know.

We live in a world - the experimental world. Most pilots do not live in that world and it's easy to assume they are as knowledgeable about what an RV is as we are. I don't believe it, from, as I say, personal experience.

jbDC9 04-28-2019 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snopercod (Post 1342658)
Isn't that a great feeling? Last week my little 140 HP Lancair had a 60 Kt overtake on a 160 HP C-172. Yup, I blew his doors off when I passed him!

It is! A coupla months ago over Blythe, CA headed east in an experimental I passed up a C-172 with an ATC indicated 100 knot overtake; sweet! But, I did have a wee horsepower advantage; a 1425 hp R-1820 bolted on the front of a T-28... is that cheating?? Nah. Fuel burn? You don?t wanna know...

N941WR 04-28-2019 06:21 PM

That's funny John!

Last year I was heading to an airport northwest of Charlotte, NC when I see a plane on the ADS-B screen off to my right heading to the same place.

I'm thinking I don't want to get behind a Cessna and do a BIG pattern or God forbid land behind a Cirrus! So I push the throttle full forward and muster all 175 knots my -9 can do and proceed to watch that ADS-B symbol just March on by me.

When he checked in on unicorn.

It was the P51 from Triple Tree. That explains it!

snopercod 04-29-2019 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N941WR (Post 1342898)
It was the P51 from Triple Tree. That explains it!

LOL! He must have had ADS-B as well.

elev666 04-29-2019 03:13 PM

I don?t bother saying my type since on initial call up I?m Canadian Gulf --Alfa Romeo Victor ,,,, not saying how many years I paid to hold that registration!

N8RV 04-29-2019 03:36 PM

I never had any issues with ATC when I simply identified with "Experimental Eight Romeo Victor," except when I was approaching Cape Girardeau, MO, one day.

Me: "Cape Girardeau tower, Experimental Eight Romeo Victor, 10 miles north with Echo ?"

ATC: "Experimental Eight Romeo Victor, please say full callsign."

Me: "November Eight Romeo Victor."

ATC: "Please state model of Experimental."

Me: [sigh] "RV-8, sir."

ATC: "Oh. N8RV, welcome to Cape Girardeau. Report entering downwind for ?" :D

Ironflight 04-29-2019 04:49 PM

RV’s are easy guys - I’m trying to figure out the call sign for the new little Subsonex.

“Subsonex 958PD”? Nah...there are only ten flying - no one knows what they are!

“Experimental 958PD”? COudl be anything from a Breezy to a .... jet....not very informative!

“Mini-Jet 958PD”? Getting better - tells folks its tiny, and a jet...you can’t see it, but it needs some space!

“Experiemntal jet 958PD” ? Well that seems to be working OK....its just a mouthful.

The bottom lien is that the call for any airplane should actually give the listener some useful information that helps them know what is out there, speed and size wise. And if your Ops Lims say you have to say “Experiemntal” to a tower, then you have to do that....otherwise, be informative.

And to repeat, pretty much everyone knows what an RV is these days (so long as you speak it clearly enough becasue yeah - I’ve gotten the “army” thing too.....).

Paul

Mconner7 04-29-2019 06:48 PM

Never said Experimental
 
I have been owned my -10 now for over a year. I have flown it transcontinental twice, logged over 140 hours, at least 1/2 IFR and never uttered the phrase experimental. I have never been questioned by the FAA or ATC.

If IFR, the flight plan identifies the type, if VFR, ATC knows what an RV-10 is. I am not experimenting with anything and don’t feel a need to identify my plane as such despite the controller/pilot golassarie.

Plummit 04-29-2019 08:06 PM

Coming out of Big Bear Saturday I asked for an IFR clearance to KLGB: "RV814 Romeo Victor say type RV, six, seven, nine, and suffix..."
My reply: RV ten, one zero slant golf."
His reply: "Ah..."

-Marc

RV7A Flyer 04-29-2019 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RV8JD (Post 1343187)
As someone pointed out earlier, it doesn't matter what one's Ops Lims say, since the requirement is codified in CFR 91.319(d)(3).

You're also not supposed to shorten your callsign unless and until ATC does it first...and yet, it's done all the time, especially at one's home field, isn't it?

Ironflight 04-29-2019 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RV8JD (Post 1343187)
As someone pointed out earlier, it doesn't matter what one's Ops Lims say, since the requirement is codified in CFR 91.319(d)(3).

You?re right Carl which may be why it is no longer the Ops Lims - that would be redundant, and there?s no need, since it is already required.

catmandu 04-30-2019 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironflight (Post 1343212)
- that would be redundant, and there’s no need, since it is already required.

:rolleyes:

But on topic, near Philly yesterday a plane popped up on frequency: "Experimental 58RV" which complied with regulations and also identified type right away. So, no more initials at the end of your number reservations, just use RV (currently 135 of those available)!

falcon900guy 04-30-2019 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mconner7 (Post 1343168)
I have been owned my -10 now for over a year. I have flown it transcontinental twice, logged over 140 hours, at least 1/2 IFR and never uttered the phrase experimental. I have never been questioned by the FAA or ATC.

If IFR, the flight plan identifies the type, if VFR, ATC knows what an RV-10 is. I am not experimenting with anything and don?t feel a need to identify my plane as such despite the controller/pilot golassarie.

i would love to chat regarding your transcontinental flights. very interested in transcontinental in the future.

kenny

BillL 04-30-2019 06:24 AM

FYI
 
The whole Army thing had me puzzled . . how could ATC think that? I looked up the cruise speeds and found the CH-47 - 160kt and BlackHawk - 152Kt. OK, now it make sense.

Back to the topic.

I say "experimental" and full number once on take-off, then shorten. It doesn't much matter as typical just talking to myself. I think that meets the regs.

My local controllers know its an RV and my tail number (when entering the Charlie). They call me RV even if I don't. Great bunch of people!!

Dan B 04-30-2019 07:31 AM

Some additional information and call sign guidance:

The AIM provides "basic flight information and ATC procedures for use in the National Airspace System." The AIM, Chapter 4, Section 2 provides Radio Communications Phraseology and Techniques information.

Para 4-2-4 is titled "Aircraft Call Signs". Some of the information in this paragraph, relevant to this post, includes:

a. Precautions in the Use of Call Signs.
1. Improper use of call signs can result in pilots
executing a clearance intended for another aircraft.
Call signs should never be abbreviated on an initial
contact or at any time when other aircraft call signs
have similar numbers/sounds or identical letters/
number; e.g., Cessna 6132F, Cessna 1622F,
Baron 123F, Cherokee 7732F, etc.

3. Civil aircraft pilots should state the aircraft
type, model or manufacturer?s name, followed by the
digits/letters of the registration number. When the
aircraft manufacturer?s name or model is stated, the
prefix ?N? is dropped; e.g., Aztec Two Four Six Four
Alpha.
EXAMPLE−
1. Bonanza Six Five Five Golf.
2. Breezy Six One Three Romeo Experimental (omit
?Experimental? after initial contact
).

DanH 04-30-2019 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RV8JD (Post 1343187)
... the requirement is codified in CFR 91.319(d)(3).

I suspect quite a few miss the specific control tower wording.

The word "experimental" is only required somewhere in an initial exchange with a tower.

That said, I use "RV 5551" with C and B controllers, and then skip the E-word when I get handed off to the tower. Perhaps not perfectly legal, but the tower already knows the aircraft type.

F1R 04-30-2019 08:10 AM

Expediency
 
I wonder if "MENTAL" is an FAA approved abbreviation.

AlexPeterson 04-30-2019 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanH (Post 1343270)
I suspect quite a few miss the specific control tower wording.

The word "experimental" is only required somewhere in an initial exchange with a tower.

That said, I use "RV 5551" with C and B controllers, and then skip the E-word when I get handed off to the tower. Perhaps not perfectly legal, but the tower already knows the aircraft type.

It says to notify the tower of the experimental nature of the aircraft - describing one's plane as "RV xxxx" does this, doesn't it? However, I guess since there are now LSA certified RV12's, perhaps saying "RV" doesn't quite cut it anymore.

Saville 04-30-2019 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexPeterson (Post 1343299)
It says to notify the tower of the experimental nature of the aircraft - describing one's plane as "RV xxxx" does this, doesn't it?

Only if everyone knows what an RV is. Part of the disagreement here is whether or not everyone knows what an RV is.

My Class D airport ATC did not. Had absolutely zero clue.

rvbuilder2002 04-30-2019 08:37 AM

I find these types of threads amusing......

The FAR's and (some) operating limitations require the pilot to identify his aircraft as experimental on first contact with a control tower. It is not required for any other ATC communication (approach control, en-route center, etc.).

In this thread we have had a lot of "what I do".... and that "no one has ever said anything"..... much of it contrary to the rules.
It doesn't matter if the rule makes sense or not (a lot of them don't). It is still a rule that applies to everyone and I think it is in appropriate to promote the idea that because someone has personally decided that it doesn't apply to them, that everyone else should operate that way as well.

As with anything else in life, each person has to make their own decision, but be clear in doing so that the requirement applies to every experimental class aircraft, whether you think it should or not.

NewbRVator 04-30-2019 08:50 AM

Probably doesn?t matter unless you?re in busy controlled airspace.
Clearly?...!!!?- no pun intended, there?s a little confusion regarding proper behavior on all sides. I think if I am sandwiched between ?Heavies? landing in busy airspace where it?s hard to get a word in edgewise on the radio I would definitely prefer ATC to know exactly what type of aircraft I am flying.

But yeah amusing topic

rocketman1988 04-30-2019 09:16 AM

Yep
 
"...I find these types of threads amusing......

The FAR's and (some) operating limitations require the pilot to identify his aircraft as experimental on first contact with a control tower. It is not required for any other ATC communication (approach control, en-route center, etc.).

In this thread we have had a lot of "what I do".... and that "no one has ever said anything"..... much of it contrary to the rules.
It doesn't matter if the rule makes sense or not (a lot of them don't). It is still a rule that applies to everyone and I think it is in appropriate to promote the idea that because someone has personally decided that it doesn't apply to them, that everyone else should operate that way as well.

As with anything else in life, each person has to make their own decision, but be clear in doing so that the requirement applies to every experimental class aircraft, whether you think it should or not..."

Well said.

GalinHdz 04-30-2019 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 (Post 1343302)
I find these types of threads amusing......

The FAR's and (some) operating limitations require the pilot to identify his aircraft as experimental on first contact with a control tower. It is not required for any other ATC communication (approach control, en-route center, etc.).

In this thread we have had a lot of "what I do".... and that "no one has ever said anything"..... much of it contrary to the rules.
It doesn't matter if the rule makes sense or not (a lot of them don't). It is still a rule that applies to everyone and I think it is in appropriate to promote the idea that because someone has personally decided that it doesn't apply to them, that everyone else should operate that way as well.

As with anything else in life, each person has to make their own decision, but be clear in doing so that the requirement applies to every experimental class aircraft, whether you think it should or not.

I agree +10,000%

I shouldn't care what the rest of you do, but just a few "bad apples" can give the rest of us that follow the requirements a bad reputation.

:(

F1R 04-30-2019 09:34 AM

ADSB info?
 
Im just curious about what ADSB will bring to the table in this discussion.

After January 1,2020 will ATC have enough information to know exactly what type / model & N reg. they are dealing with ?

kmbusse 04-30-2019 10:30 AM

As a controller in Canada, I couldn't care less what you call yourself with your registration. Experimental, Vans, RV, romeo victor7, RV7, all good in Calgary VTA. If I need more, I'll ask. But if you tell me you are an RV-14, expect some questions and a quick chat about where I'm at with my build. :)

Kerry

DanH 04-30-2019 10:38 AM

Scott, Bob, Galin...you use "experimental" in your initial call to ground, before taxi? Or do you wait until your "Ready on XX" call?

rvbuilder2002 04-30-2019 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanH (Post 1343330)
Scott, Bob, Galin...you use "experimental" in your initial call to ground, before taxi? Or do you wait until your "Ready on XX" call?

I do.
Home base airport tower has said they prefer to have you identified as such when calling ground because the ground controller hands off the info to the local controller (when they are busy enough that they have both positioned man'ed).
BTW... they are totally by the book here (casual about nothing) and do identify an experimental as such, to any other traffic they are communicating to about said aircraft.

GalinHdz 04-30-2019 10:49 AM

FWIW I use "Experimental" for all my transmissions. Since I am not that smart I gotta keep it simple.

:cool:

Saville 04-30-2019 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanH (Post 1343330)
Scott, Bob, Galin...you use "experimental" in your initial call to ground, before taxi? Or do you wait until your "Ready on XX" call?

I do. First call only (if they respond).

dtw_rv6 04-30-2019 11:17 AM

I chose my N number back when we were supposed to identify as Experimental without the RV. I wish I had chosen differently now.

?Indianapolis approach, Experimental RV6 6 tree niner romeo victor...?

It?s a mouthful even when I go slow. I cringe every time I hear the readback ? most times horribly wrong.... so I now say...


?Indianapolis approach, RV6 Experimental, November 6 tree niner Romeo victor...?

Maybe not entirely by the book, but they do get my N number right on most days.

Don

GalinHdz 04-30-2019 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtw_rv6 (Post 1343341)
I chose my N number back when we were supposed to identify as Experimental without the RV. I wish I had chosen differently now.

“Indianapolis approach, Experimental RV6 6 tree niner romeo victor...”

It’s a mouthful even when I go slow. I cringe every time I hear the readback — most times horribly wrong.... so I now say...


“Indianapolis approach, RV6 Experimental, November 6 tree niner Romeo victor...”

Maybe not entirely by the book, but they do get my N number right on most days.

Don

Why don't you just use: "Indianapolis approach, Experimental six tree niner romeo victor" and not say RV6 unless asked? It sounds a lot easier to me.

:cool:

rvbuilder2002 04-30-2019 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GalinHdz (Post 1343364)
Why don't you just use: "Indianapolis approach, Experimental six tree niner romeo victor" and not say RV6 unless asked? It sounds a lot easier to me.

:cool:

I use "experimental RV 123RV" for first call and then RV 123RV there after.

All of the RV's have pretty close to the same performance so it provides teh controller with useful information (as already mentioned in this thread, there is a very broad range of performance in experimentals)

The one exception to this is the RV-12. In that case I use "Light Sport RV 123RV" unless it is an experimental RV-12, then it become a bit of a mouthful.... Experimental Light Sport RV 123RV for the initial call only, then Light Sport RV 123RV for all calls there after.

GalinHdz 04-30-2019 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 (Post 1343368)
I use "experimental RV 123RV" for first call and then RV 123RV there after.

All of the RV's have pretty close to the same performance so it provides teh controller with useful information (as already mentioned in this thread, there is a very broad range of performance in experimentals)

The one exception to this is the RV-12. In that case I use "Light Sport RV 123RV" unless it is an experimental RV-12, then it become a bit of a mouthful.... Experimental Light Sport RV 123RV for the initial call only, then Light Sport RV 123RV for all calls there after.

:eek: Too complicated for my simple mind.

IMHO checking in with "Experimental 123RV" then "Experimental 3RV" for every subsequent transmission is just easier. ;)

rvbuilder2002 04-30-2019 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GalinHdz (Post 1343369)
:eek: Too complicated for my simple mind.

IMHO checking in with "Experimental 123RV" then "Experimental 3RV" for every subsequent transmission is just easier. ;)

Everyone's brain works a bit different... as long as it meets the requirements it should be no problem.

I would have to double check my memory but I think there is a requirement that if the tower hasn't shortened your call sign, you aren't allowed to arbitrarily shorten it on your own.
I do know that with numerous aircraft with very similar tail #'s in our fleet, two or more are flying simultaneously, the tower specifies that full call signs be used at all times to avoid miscommunication.

RV7A Flyer 04-30-2019 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 (Post 1343412)
I would have to double check my memory but I think there is a requirement that if the tower hasn't shortened your call sign, you aren't allowed to arbitrarily shorten it on your own.
I do know that with numerous aircraft with very similar tail #'s in our fleet, two or more are flying simultaneously, the tower specifies that full call signs be used at all times to avoid miscommunication.

I noted this earlier and somebody took offense at it for some reason. But yes, this is true...my point was that many, many, many pilots and controllers don't follow the rules on this sort of stuff *all the time*, and it's not really a problem; the end goal is communication and understanding, not to blindly follow rules. If everybody on God's Green Earth (at least her ein the U.S.) knows what an RV is, it's not really adding any information to the channel to call it an "Experimental". If nobody knows what a Swizzle 500 is, calling it an Experimental Swizzle 500 isn't any help, either, but at least it avoids everyone on frequency asking themselves "what the heck is a Swizzle 500?"...they'll know it's experimental and probably weird.

Goal is communication...if it warms your heart to feel like calling yourself Experimental RV helps out, have at it.

rzbill 04-30-2019 05:05 PM

Do Swizzles have a quick build kit??

rv7charlie 04-30-2019 05:43 PM

Apologies if someone's already mentioned this. On the issue of 'experimental' having little meaning in itself:

Back in the early '90s when I started flying experimentals (1st a Thorp T-18, then an RV), the FAA expected 'Experimental-type <insert alpha character>', based on the speed of the a/c. RVs were 'type B'. I vaguely remember seeing it in the regs somewhere, but I'd never be able to point it out now. At some point, I remember being told that RVs had become common enough that they were in the FAA's make/model list, and 'experimental RV', rather than 'experimental type B' became acceptable.

None of that helped the typical cert a/c driver, but it did tell the controllers what speed to expect.

Charlie

edit, just found the speed reference.
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/...0.65TBasic.pdf
appendix C-1, pg 457 of the pdf

dtw_rv6 04-30-2019 06:22 PM

I tried the RV type instead of RV6, but controllers kept asking if I was an 8 or a 7 or which one...I assume they they are limited in how they can enter that info into the computer... but I have no clue.

DanH 05-01-2019 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rv7charlie (Post 1343441)

An interesting document.

9-2-4. EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT
OPERATIONS

a. When notified that an experimental aircraft
requires special handling:

NOTE14 CFR Section 91.319(d)(3) requires that each person
operating an aircraft with an experimental certificate shall
notify the control tower of the experimental nature of the
aircraft when operating into or out of airports with
operating control towers.

1. Clear the aircraft according to pilot requests
as traffic permits and if not contrary to ATC
procedures.

2. Once approved, do not ask the pilot to deviate
from a planned action except to preclude an
emergency situation.

b. At locations where volume or complexity of
experimental aircraft operations warrant, a letter of
agreement may be consummated between the facility
and operator.


Given the rules, perhaps I'll notify ATC that I require special handling, with no deviations. ;)


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:54 AM.