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-   -   "Say Type Experimental..." (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=171006)

Saville 05-04-2019 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RV7A Flyer (Post 1344331)
Sorry, no. The reg says you are required to "Notify the control tower of the experimental nature of the aircraft..."

There's a difference, legally :)

Yes agreed, and then the conversation moved to whether or not saying "RV" was good enough....whether or not RV is SUFFICIENT to convey "experimental". In my opinion it is not.

It is a proven fact that in some airports, and for some pilots, it is not. This is an established fact beyond debate.
Unless you know an airport knows about RV's - and unless you know that the pilots you are dealing with in that airspace and at that moment - knows about RV's, you are taking a chance.

So there you MAY have satisfied the requirements. Or you may not have.

There is ABSOLUTELY ZERO chance that you have not satisfied the requirement when you use the word "experimental". You have definitely conveyed the "experimental nature" without question.

From there we got into opinion and acceptable risk factors.

That's pretty much when I tuned out. I know what risk I'm willing to accept - as little as practical. And the "pain" of using the word "experimental" is so infinitesimal that to avoid it strikes me as silly and there's no good reason to not use it. I have seen no rational argument against using the word "experimental". It costs almost nothing to use the word. I have to wonder if some people defend against its use because they don't want to admit they may have been taking unnecessary risks. But I really I don't know

I see no harm in saying "Experimental RV November 12345.....", as adding the "RV" is helpful, MIGHT provide useful info and doesn't take up much extra time on the frequency.

I also know that I specifically asked my home airport's Tower Team (2 teams because one whole set retired to be replaced by new folks), and they BOTH said they Want. To. Hear. the word "experimental". So that's the second reason I use it.


So that's my choice. Everyone does what they think is best.

If people want to continue to debate the issue have at it. I'm pretty much done with it:

I've listened to both sides, identified the silly arguments, and have made my choices.

NewbRVator 05-04-2019 01:01 PM

Agreed ✅✅✅

Stockmanreef 05-04-2019 04:40 PM

Maybe I missed this idea in this long thread, but does any one announce themselves with:

"Vans RV-XX tail number"

or

"Van's XX tail number"

Then isn't "Van's" equivalent to saying "experimental", except for the 12 (which may be professionally built).

Van's is the make, while RV-xx is the model. Like Cessna Skyhawk (172). With that said, why doesn't Van's come up with cool names for each model. A wait I know, for the same reason that a Porsche only has to be identified as a 911 or a 944.

Toobuilder 05-04-2019 05:37 PM

"Vans" is only the manufacturer of a very small number of the 10,000+ Airplanes identified as RV's

GalinHdz 05-04-2019 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stockmanreef (Post 1344405)
Then isn't "Van's" equivalent to saying "experimental", except for the 12 (which may be professionally built).

No. :cool:

gmcjetpilot 05-05-2019 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toobuilder (Post 1344415)
"Vans" is only the manufacturer of a very small number of the 10,000+ Airplanes identified as RV's

That's not true according to the FAA order. Van is the recognized manufacturer, and every one of the Van's Aircraft from rv-3 to rv-14 is listed in this official document. Orders and Notices are mandatory for FAA internal use. There are no other VAN aircraft manufacturers according to FAA. There' are several thousand RVs flying, which far exceeds many certified models. Not sure what the point is, but in the world of experimental aircraft Van's models are one of the most prolific and well-known. In the total GA population Van's Aircraft, a round over 40 years, and are not a minority by any stretch.

Some say RVx is not sufficient to indicate your experimental nature, which is an opinion. If you ask an FAA inspector you will likely get different opinions. If you just say RVx would you ever get a violation or cause a safety issue? In my opinion no. However there's no controversy if you just say experimental.

If you say "Experimental RVx N#...." you are covered. This has the added benefit of letting those who do know what an RV is know what type you are. This saves time from ATC having to come back and ask you what type of aircraft you are.

By the way when I say ATC I mean Tower. This requirement to indicate your experimental nature only applies to initial communication with airport control Towers. Enroute you don't have to say it at all.

GalinHdz 05-05-2019 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot (Post 1344480)
That's not true according to the FAA order. Van is the recognized manufacturer, and every one of the Van's Aircraft from rv-3 to rv-14 is listed in this official document. Orders and Notices are mandatory for FAA internal use.

As you point out, FAA orders and documents are mandatory for FAA internal use ONLY. They do not apply to anyone else and do not override the FAR's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saville (Post 1344330)
It was settled - pages and pages ago. You are required to use the word "experimental" on your first call-up. After that it's not required.

EXACTLY, but some people insist on justifying what they do no matter what the reality is. :(

gmcjetpilot 05-05-2019 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GalinHdz (Post 1344520)
As you point out, FAA orders and documents are mandatory for FAA internal use ONLY. They do not apply to anyone else and do not override the FAR's.


EXACTLY, but some people insist on justifying what they do no matter what the reality is. :(

Mandatory for FAA personel. They are the boss of you. Ha ha. You are free to ignore the fact that the FAA recognizes the Van's RV types as they do a Boeing 747. It is useful to know. If you file a flight plan, it is a recognized (by FAA) make/model type along with its description 1P/S, which is 1 engine, piston, small and wake turb index F ICAO weight: Light. This is what ATC has access to do their job. Note: FAA ATC considers "Van's" as manufacture not builder for ATC purposes. For type designation (model) omit hyphen.

Again say experimental. That is perfect. If Tower comes back say what type, what will you say? Vans' RVx. If they say what's that? Small, light, single piston engine low wing 2 place airplane I guess. If tower say oh a Grumman Yankee.. land at another Airport. :)

Here is Order 7360.1D.
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m...tors_FINAL.pdf

What is an Order?
ANSWER:*FAA Orders*are published by the*FAA for*FAA*personnel. These documents outline procedures for performing their job functions. The acronym JO is used in the*FAA*Air Traffic Control*order numbering system and stands for Job*Order.

GalinHdz 05-05-2019 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot (Post 1344527)
Mandatory for FAA personel. They are the boss of you. Ha ha.

Just out of curiosity, how long have you been employed by the FAA? Based on your post(s) I think I know the answer. FWIW I was a controller for 22yrs so I know that they are nobody's boss and these orders are not mandatory for anybody outside the FAA, no matter what you want to think. But the FAR's apply to everyone so I follow them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot (Post 1344527)
Again say experimental. That is perfect. If Tower comes back say what type, what will you say? Vans' RVx. If they say what's that? Small, light, single piston engine low wing 2 place airplane I guess. If tower say oh a Grumman Yankee.. land at another Airport. :)

See this thread's post #115 for what I do when ATC asks me about my experimental.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot (Post 1344527)
What is an Order?
ANSWER:*FAA Orders*are published by the*FAA for*FAA*personnel. These documents outline procedures for performing their job functions. The acronym JO is used in the*FAA*Air Traffic Control*order numbering system and stands for Job*Order.

There, I highlighted your own post for you to understand.

:cool:

Jerry Kinman 05-05-2019 02:27 PM

Clarification sometimes isn't enough
 
In my early lifetime I was initiating a VFR landing clearance into Dallas Love Field by stating "Love tower, Swift 3959K over Bonham (visual reporting point) for landing". Tower controller asked for aircraft type. I replied "Globe GC1-B".
Tower controller after a few minutes: "Cleared to land RWY 13L".

About 2 miles from touchdown the controller advised me my nose gear did not appear to be down...


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