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It's easy to wriggle out from underneath the hypothetical posed by inventing some new way of registering airplanes, but that's not what is happening today and not what the question was. And a stockbroker is buying on the *private* market, not a limited government-owned, federally mandated "resource". |
I find this thread extremely interesting! Is it possible to say that "both sides are right"? I think people on both sides of this debate have very valid points.
It reinforces a belief I have....There are no "perfect" systems! Free market systems are not perfect because the "haves" can have so much more than the "have-nots". The difference just seems immoral. Yet, socialism is not perfect because there is no incentive for one person with a better ideal to exploit a "better way of doing things" because they will not benefit anymore than everyone else. Here's my unsolicited opinion FWIW..... if no system is perfect (because they all have their flaws) pick the system that "sucks least". I'd rather John have the right to extort money from me for a highly desirable N-number than to encourage my government to be more restrictive. That seems to suck the least. Here's something else I find very interesting. I bet most of the people who want to criticize the FAA for allowing John to do what he does are also the same people who enjoy the freedoms we have as homebuilders in America. Would those same people applaud the FAA for becoming MORE restrictive on our rights as homebuilders???? My guess would be that these same people would be terribly upset if the FAA began to "infringe" on our rights. So, back to my opinion. There are no perfect systems. So, I'll choose to side with the choice that sucks the least. |
We're lucky they're not randomly assigned, or sequential. An N number is required, the N number you want isn't...
Don't be jealous you didn't think of it first. |
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With a simple stroke of the pen the airplane registration numbering system has changed before and, if needed, can/will change again with another stroke of the pen. Just converting one character of the existing system from numeric to alphanumeric (N12XXX vs N123XX) would almost quadruple the available registration numbers. This reality makes your hypothetical business model so fundamentally flawed no investor would risk loosing the massive amounts of money required to attempt it. Your hypothetical situation is simply DOA. :cool: |
It would be one thing if there were a shortage of N numbers but there isn't ... I don't see any problem with it.
Nothing stopping anyone from doing the same and selling them for less ... cheap-n-numbers.com is available ... |
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Instead, I'm saying that your hypothetical situation is so far divorced from reality that it is ridiculous. You're proposing a scenario (someone hoarding all currently available N-numbers) that isn't going to happen, but that doesn't necessarily stop us from considering "what if". However, your experiment completely disconnects itself from reality when you stipulate that nothing is allowed to be done or changed to fix the problem. IF some big conglomerate gobbled up every last N-number, it would be foolish to really, truly, honestly believe that nothing would change. Do you see the airlines just accepting the fact that they can't get any new aircraft? Boeing and Airbus? They're just going to roll over and play dead?! The transportation industry as a whole would entirely reject this idea of "nothing is allowed to change". Maybe nobody would be allowed to reserve N-numbers anymore; instead, they would be randomly or sequentially assigned to an airworthy, certificated aircraft. Maybe the FAA adds 30 million possible registrations by adding a 6th digit, or another billion by adding a 7th. The point is, under the circumstances that you've imagined, something will change. To pretend otherwise is to forego an honest discussion. Coming full circle and knowing how simply and easily things could and would change to fix the problem, you can easily see why the original hypothetical situation of someone buying up every N-number will never happen. |
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I guess, in the end, my biggest problem is with the government forcing one to acquire/use a government "resource", but then allowing a private corporation the ability to monopolize the resource. If it were a tangible asset, and it was required that you buy one to fly, and the source was the government, I don't think as many people would be so accepting of this scheme. Regulation says you have to get an X widget from the government, at a minimal cost, to be airworthy. Private company buys up Xs from the government, creating a shortage or very long lead time, unless you pay an exorbitant fee to the company. Taxpaying aviators are the ones stuck with the choice...pony up or don't fly. I don't think a lot of pilots would be too happy about a situation like that. |
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A few good arguments on both sides. Keep in mind that the ability to reserve these numbers from the FAA is (in theory anyway) the same for all of us.
I wanted to perform a quick exercise to see how a nice N number could be found and reserved. I did a quick check to determine which registrations were "Cancelled". Please correct me if I'm wrong with any of this:The regs state that any registration that is not renewed is considered "Expired". After "about 90 days" it is considered "cancelled". That number then becomes available again after 5 years (midnight). I found that N14EC was cancelled on 4/9/2014 and will therefore be available at midnight 4/9/19. If any of you are interested in working for your N number instead of paying for someone else to harvest it for you, get all of your ducks in a row at about 11:55 and set your trigger to "hit that number" at midnight. Don't forget that the FAA is in OK City when doing this. Spend $10 on a practice session before going for that number so you will know what you're doing when going for the big prize. I'll be interested to see who gets this. If i's one of you guys, and you decide not to use it, will you gift it to one of your fellow RVers or will you sell it? I'm all for private enterprise but also FIRMLY disagree with "if it's "legal" it's not wrong or immoral" |
N numbers only mean something to the builder, or owner of any airplane (maybe falsely). No one else cares. I would be happy with a randomly selected N number - like buying a lottery ticket with auto pick. Who cares, really?? The only reason I can think of for selecting a personalized N number is how it rolls off the tongue. I don?t prefer to end my call sign in ?Sierra Echo, or Zulu Hotel? - too many syllables for me, but others may like those ones. BUT - I could get used to any number. The N number means NOTHING. We could shut the N number pirates down by not caring what our useless N number is. If you built your airplane, your name is on the data plate. Isn?t that enough?
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Why wouldn't we prefer custom N-numbers. PS - anyone want N42KB? I've got it reserved, but won't need it. |
Why??? Because it?s apparently difficult to get what you want and it can get very expensive! It?s like a personalized license plate on your car. The only people that care about that are the cops that are pulling you over. I wouldn?t pay any more than the required $10 for an N number. I seriously doubt that anybody looking at your airplane and noticing all the wonderful things you did in building it (seriously) will take a glance at your N number. I think $10 is too much!! Somebody is gouging us. Call them entrepreneurs if you want, but I think of them the same way I think about the countless scammers that call my cell phone so many times every day. Maybe they should get a job. Your N number is the most meaningless thing on your airplane.
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I picked my number by how quick easy it was to say on the radio. I didn't want 2 letters.
If I were King, my policy would be just like it is for a car license plate. For home builds, you could buy it for one year and it you have net certified the plane after a year, you lose it. I would have lost my number since I have had it for a couple years, but since I am King, I could exempt myself. |
Sorry to revive this old thread. I too view certain companies as "scalpers". I wanted a short N number, but out of principle, was not going to pay the ransom. I believe it is difficult for the FAA to change their rules (i think some things are handed down by congress in the FAA reauthorization bill).. but I have noticed that last year they enhanced their website in order to make automated purchases more of a hassle.
I digress. So long story short, being a computer programmer by schooling, i simply wrote my own automated program to reserve and pay for numbers at the stroke of midnight (Central Time). If anyone wants me to [try to] reserve a number for them (for your own plane, not for resale!), PM me and we'll figure something out. I don't want to give out my program because I believe it to be faster than whatever these companies are using. I have 1179, 1913, 2111, and 713 reserved. I'll most likely use 713 later this year and not renew the others. (don't forget that 1's have special dimensions that can lead to physically shorter painted numbers on your plane!) |
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I gave up my custom number because I hated scrolling back and forth to enter letters at the pump. |
Apparently trying to make a change about N-numbers is considered political and not appropriate and has been removed, yet we can complain for or against them here.
So keep an eye out on social networks for a link to do something about it. :-) |
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I was looking for a registration that was easy to say on the radio, but when my initials came up as available, I went with that instead. When shortened to the last two letters it's pretty easy to say on the radio, and at least at my airport there isn't anyone with a similar registration to confuse anyone. |
N numbers
I?ve had good success getting the N numbers I wanted. I was very patient and sometimes waited years to get one. I flew a twin Beech that was N711, I knew I could never get it. It has been in the same family for 70+ years. I did finally get N6711 just after an airplane was deregistered. It was on a Lockheed. I do like the number on my RV6A.
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On a side note, I'd like to understand why this topic falls afoul of the politics discussion ban. Seems like it's more about whether or not to push for *regulatory* changes to aviation, much like the discussions about driver's license medicals and then BasicMed, when those were being pushed. Not arguing the rules or moderation, just want to know why, as this doesn't "feel" political to me. |
It looks political because the changes discussed here are not going to improve our ability to register and fly an airplane - we can do that today and we can do that tomorrow. What we have here is a perceived "injustice", and someone thinks we need to create law to solve that injustice. The basic premise of the topic- restricting the freedom of some (creating new law) so that others can get what they want - is inherently social/political.
I don't like the practice either, but fact remains the "scalpers" are not restricting our ability to register our airplanes, so this issue is not a "real" problem. The act of changing laws certainly does consume resources however - and that's a "real" fact. Let's be mindful of what we wish for. |
Nobody can go online and run, or check, owner information of automobile license plates. The rules and laws that cover that are extensive and requires law enforcement to be trained to do that with strict consequences if those rules are violated. And those LEIN inquires are monitored and randomly audited. Why the FAA allows access to N number inquiries by anyone with a computer is beyond me. Put a stop to that, which they should for privacy, and problem solved.
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So this dude is pumping out $10 to save each N number? Or is it $5.
It is enterprising for sure. I don?t completely agree with it... but I?m not necessarily completely opposed to it either. The FAA has set their rules. They guy is playing by the rules. The rules are the problem. X |
There are probably several N numbers that would meet my criteria. I still don't like this practice though but I agree it's the rules that need to change.
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And that's what I am trying to change, the Rules. So why is change a political thing? We have a front page sticky on this web site advocating that VANS AIRCRAFT design a back country aircraft. Looks like a petition to me. I want to change the rules about N-Numbers. I'm not advocating any political party. I'm creating a petition. The Government should stay out of creating monopolies except for the greater good like utilities. N-Numbers are not a utility, but the current rules have created a de facto monopoly. There is precedent in the FCC assignment system for exactly the thing we are talking about, creating a fair assignment system. My 2C |
I don?t mind it that much but your petition makes a valid argument regarding the FCC so I signed your petition.
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Yet still no explanation as to how its a problem for anybody? Nothing stopping folks from getting N numbers.
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HAL Pilot, I also signed your petition. You may want to display the link a little more prominently in your post, as it is buried in your sig file with no clear label.
HAL Pilot's link: "change dot org link http://chng.it/KBPtXZYD " |
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I don’t see any problem worth creating more unnecessary laws. What these guys are doing is no different than internet domain names, vanity phone numbers, or real estate. There’s some land down the street that I would love to build a house on and since the owner isn’t using it I guess we should petition the government to take it away while we’re at it. |
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Easy
Is it me or is this too complicated. Just ban the sale of n numbers. They may be transferred with plane sale. Or transfered for free.
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What about internet domain names? What about vanity toll free numbers? My point is .. really .. it's simply not a problem that has to be addressed. There's nothing stopping anyone from getting N numbers and laws like the one suggested just continue erode our freedoms over time making the lines gray on where to draw them and setting precedent that can be skewed by lawmakers. |
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I could see the Feds saying "screw it - nobody gets to reserve an N number anymore. You will get what you are assigned and like it!". That brings equality to all of us. |
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However, being on the other side of the desk I say let's leave well enough alone :o |
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The issuing authority should just put expiring numbers on eBay for a week in a no-reserve auction. Let the government capture the extra value instead of the scalpers.
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