VAF Forums

VAF Forums (https://vansairforce.net/community/index.php)
-   RV General Discussion/News (https://vansairforce.net/community/forumdisplay.php?f=2)
-   -   $3500 N number (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=169991)

RV7A Flyer 03-27-2019 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbo69bird (Post 1334842)
there Is value. Maybe not to you but to many people whodon't want to search, and will pay for the option of not having to search.

As for someone buying up ALL the n numbers they are taking risk. Who's to say the government under those circumstances wouldn't issue bar codes instead, and the numbers would have zero value. ? They are buying on spec. Just like a builder buys lots to build on, or a stock broker buys stock or options them.

We are not "entitled" to short N numbers. If people really don't like it they won't pay for it and that will stop it because the guy won't waste his time if there's no financial return ie: no value.

Still not addressing the hypothetical...NO changes in n-number formats by the FAA, n-numbers still REQUIRED by law, and a company rich enough to reserve them all and then charge whatever price they want.

It's easy to wriggle out from underneath the hypothetical posed by inventing some new way of registering airplanes, but that's not what is happening today and not what the question was.

And a stockbroker is buying on the *private* market, not a limited government-owned, federally mandated "resource".

rvanstory 03-27-2019 09:41 PM

I find this thread extremely interesting! Is it possible to say that "both sides are right"? I think people on both sides of this debate have very valid points.

It reinforces a belief I have....There are no "perfect" systems! Free market systems are not perfect because the "haves" can have so much more than the "have-nots". The difference just seems immoral. Yet, socialism is not perfect because there is no incentive for one person with a better ideal to exploit a "better way of doing things" because they will not benefit anymore than everyone else.

Here's my unsolicited opinion FWIW..... if no system is perfect (because they all have their flaws) pick the system that "sucks least". I'd rather John have the right to extort money from me for a highly desirable N-number than to encourage my government to be more restrictive. That seems to suck the least.

Here's something else I find very interesting. I bet most of the people who want to criticize the FAA for allowing John to do what he does are also the same people who enjoy the freedoms we have as homebuilders in America. Would those same people applaud the FAA for becoming MORE restrictive on our rights as homebuilders???? My guess would be that these same people would be terribly upset if the FAA began to "infringe" on our rights.

So, back to my opinion. There are no perfect systems. So, I'll choose to side with the choice that sucks the least.

BMC_Dave 03-28-2019 12:02 AM

We're lucky they're not randomly assigned, or sequential. An N number is required, the N number you want isn't...

Don't be jealous you didn't think of it first.

GalinHdz 03-28-2019 07:11 AM

9
Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbo69bird (Post 1334842)
We are not "entitled" to short N numbers. If people really don't like it they won't pay for it and that will stop it because the guy won't waste his time if there's no financial return ie: no value.

Well said.
Quote:

Originally Posted by RV7A Flyer (Post 1334896)
Still not addressing the hypothetical...NO changes in n-number formats by the FAA, n-numbers still REQUIRED by law, and a company rich enough to reserve them all and then charge whatever price they want.

It's easy to wriggle out from underneath the hypothetical posed by inventing some new way of registering airplanes, but that's not what is happening today and not what the question was.

It addresses the fact that theory has to eventually face reality.

With a simple stroke of the pen the airplane registration numbering system has changed before and, if needed, can/will change again with another stroke of the pen. Just converting one character of the existing system from numeric to alphanumeric (N12XXX vs N123XX) would almost quadruple the available registration numbers. This reality makes your hypothetical business model so fundamentally flawed no investor would risk loosing the massive amounts of money required to attempt it. Your hypothetical situation is simply DOA.

:cool:

bkervaski 03-28-2019 07:16 AM

It would be one thing if there were a shortage of N numbers but there isn't ... I don't see any problem with it.

Nothing stopping anyone from doing the same and selling them for less ... cheap-n-numbers.com is available ...

thompsonbr87 03-28-2019 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RV7A Flyer (Post 1334896)
Still not addressing the hypothetical...NO changes in n-number formats by the FAA, n-numbers still REQUIRED by law, and a company rich enough to reserve them all and then charge whatever price they want.

It's easy to wriggle out from underneath the hypothetical posed by inventing some new way of registering airplanes, but that's not what is happening today and not what the question was.

And a stockbroker is buying on the *private* market, not a limited government-owned, federally mandated "resource".

Ok, yes. In this situation you've concocted, you can conclude that someone is profiteering from a "government-owned, and federally mandated 'resource'". I'm not going to argue otherwise within the context of your hypothetical.

Instead, I'm saying that your hypothetical situation is so far divorced from reality that it is ridiculous. You're proposing a scenario (someone hoarding all currently available N-numbers) that isn't going to happen, but that doesn't necessarily stop us from considering "what if". However, your experiment completely disconnects itself from reality when you stipulate that nothing is allowed to be done or changed to fix the problem. IF some big conglomerate gobbled up every last N-number, it would be foolish to really, truly, honestly believe that nothing would change. Do you see the airlines just accepting the fact that they can't get any new aircraft? Boeing and Airbus? They're just going to roll over and play dead?! The transportation industry as a whole would entirely reject this idea of "nothing is allowed to change". Maybe nobody would be allowed to reserve N-numbers anymore; instead, they would be randomly or sequentially assigned to an airworthy, certificated aircraft. Maybe the FAA adds 30 million possible registrations by adding a 6th digit, or another billion by adding a 7th. The point is, under the circumstances that you've imagined, something will change. To pretend otherwise is to forego an honest discussion.

Coming full circle and knowing how simply and easily things could and would change to fix the problem, you can easily see why the original hypothetical situation of someone buying up every N-number will never happen.

RV7A Flyer 03-28-2019 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thompsonbr87 (Post 1334942)
Ok, yes. In this situation you've concocted, you can conclude that someone is profiteering from a "government-owned, and federally mandated 'resource'". I'm not going to argue otherwise within the context of your hypothetical.

Instead, I'm saying that your hypothetical situation is so far divorced from reality that it is ridiculous. You're proposing a scenario (someone hoarding all currently available N-numbers) that isn't going to happen, but that doesn't necessarily stop us from considering "what if". However, your experiment completely disconnects itself from reality when you stipulate that nothing is allowed to be done or changed to fix the problem. IF some big conglomerate gobbled up every last N-number, it would be foolish to really, truly, honestly believe that nothing would change. Do you see the airlines just accepting the fact that they can't get any new aircraft? Boeing and Airbus? They're just going to roll over and play dead?! The transportation industry as a whole would entirely reject this idea of "nothing is allowed to change". Maybe nobody would be allowed to reserve N-numbers anymore; instead, they would be randomly or sequentially assigned to an airworthy, certificated aircraft. Maybe the FAA adds 30 million possible registrations by adding a 6th digit, or another billion by adding a 7th. The point is, under the circumstances that you've imagined, something will change. To pretend otherwise is to forego an honest discussion.

Coming full circle and knowing how simply and easily things could and would change to fix the problem, you can easily see why the original hypothetical situation of someone buying up every N-number will never happen.

Never is a long time, especially in a climate that encourages privatization of government assets.

I guess, in the end, my biggest problem is with the government forcing one to acquire/use a government "resource", but then allowing a private corporation the ability to monopolize the resource. If it were a tangible asset, and it was required that you buy one to fly, and the source was the government, I don't think as many people would be so accepting of this scheme. Regulation says you have to get an X widget from the government, at a minimal cost, to be airworthy. Private company buys up Xs from the government, creating a shortage or very long lead time, unless you pay an exorbitant fee to the company. Taxpaying aviators are the ones stuck with the choice...pony up or don't fly.

I don't think a lot of pilots would be too happy about a situation like that.

bkervaski 03-28-2019 01:45 PM

Quote:

I guess, in the end, my biggest problem is with the government forcing one to acquire/use a government "resource", but then allowing a private corporation the ability to monopolize the resource.
Best argument against yet ... however, I'm sure the FAA would drop the hammer if the resource was actually being monopolized. The negligible number of reserved N numbers this guy has is not a problem that needs attention or rule change. The raised hairs are from people who want one of those numbers for vanity purposes. There are plenty of N numbers available to register. Same as domain names or toll free numbers.

ColoCardinal 03-28-2019 05:32 PM

$3500
 
A few good arguments on both sides. Keep in mind that the ability to reserve these numbers from the FAA is (in theory anyway) the same for all of us.

I wanted to perform a quick exercise to see how a nice N number could be found and reserved. I did a quick check to determine which registrations were "Cancelled".

Please correct me if I'm wrong with any of this:The regs state that any registration that is not renewed is considered "Expired". After "about 90 days" it is considered "cancelled". That number then becomes available again after 5 years (midnight).

I found that N14EC was cancelled on 4/9/2014 and will therefore be available at midnight 4/9/19.

If any of you are interested in working for your N number instead of paying for someone else to harvest it for you, get all of your ducks in a row at about 11:55 and set your trigger to "hit that number" at midnight. Don't forget that the FAA is in OK City when doing this. Spend $10 on a practice session before going for that number so you will know what you're doing when going for the big prize.

I'll be interested to see who gets this. If i's one of you guys, and you decide not to use it, will you gift it to one of your fellow RVers or will you sell it?

I'm all for private enterprise but also FIRMLY disagree with "if it's "legal" it's not wrong or immoral"

Scott Hersha 03-28-2019 06:25 PM

N numbers only mean something to the builder, or owner of any airplane (maybe falsely). No one else cares. I would be happy with a randomly selected N number - like buying a lottery ticket with auto pick. Who cares, really?? The only reason I can think of for selecting a personalized N number is how it rolls off the tongue. I don?t prefer to end my call sign in ?Sierra Echo, or Zulu Hotel? - too many syllables for me, but others may like those ones. BUT - I could get used to any number. The N number means NOTHING. We could shut the N number pirates down by not caring what our useless N number is. If you built your airplane, your name is on the data plate. Isn?t that enough?

Kyle Boatright 03-28-2019 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Hersha (Post 1335114)
N numbers only mean something to the builder, or owner of any airplane (maybe falsely). No one else cares. I would be happy with a randomly selected N number - like buying a lottery ticket with auto pick. Who cares, really?? The only reason I can think of for selecting a personalized N number is how it rolls off the tongue. I don?t prefer to end my call sign in ?Sierra Echo, or Zulu Hotel? - too many syllables for me, but others may like those ones. BUT - I could get used to any number. The N number means NOTHING. We could shut the N number pirates down by not caring what our useless N number is. If you built your airplane, your name is on the data plate. Isn?t that enough?

We customize panels, interiors, colors, exterior schemes, configurations (trigear vs conventional), canopy selections, engines, props, electrical systems.

Why wouldn't we prefer custom N-numbers.

PS - anyone want N42KB? I've got it reserved, but won't need it.

Scott Hersha 03-28-2019 08:28 PM

Why??? Because it?s apparently difficult to get what you want and it can get very expensive! It?s like a personalized license plate on your car. The only people that care about that are the cops that are pulling you over. I wouldn?t pay any more than the required $10 for an N number. I seriously doubt that anybody looking at your airplane and noticing all the wonderful things you did in building it (seriously) will take a glance at your N number. I think $10 is too much!! Somebody is gouging us. Call them entrepreneurs if you want, but I think of them the same way I think about the countless scammers that call my cell phone so many times every day. Maybe they should get a job. Your N number is the most meaningless thing on your airplane.

rockwoodrv9 03-28-2019 08:59 PM

I picked my number by how quick easy it was to say on the radio. I didn't want 2 letters.

If I were King, my policy would be just like it is for a car license plate. For home builds, you could buy it for one year and it you have net certified the plane after a year, you lose it. I would have lost my number since I have had it for a couple years, but since I am King, I could exempt myself.

rcarsey 05-29-2019 09:40 PM

Sorry to revive this old thread. I too view certain companies as "scalpers". I wanted a short N number, but out of principle, was not going to pay the ransom. I believe it is difficult for the FAA to change their rules (i think some things are handed down by congress in the FAA reauthorization bill).. but I have noticed that last year they enhanced their website in order to make automated purchases more of a hassle.

I digress. So long story short, being a computer programmer by schooling, i simply wrote my own automated program to reserve and pay for numbers at the stroke of midnight (Central Time). If anyone wants me to [try to] reserve a number for them (for your own plane, not for resale!), PM me and we'll figure something out. I don't want to give out my program because I believe it to be faster than whatever these companies are using.

I have 1179, 1913, 2111, and 713 reserved. I'll most likely use 713 later this year and not renew the others. (don't forget that 1's have special dimensions that can lead to physically shorter painted numbers on your plane!)

gasman 05-30-2019 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockwoodrv9 (Post 1335138)
I picked my number by how quick easy it was to say on the radio. I didn't want 2 letters.

If I were King, my policy would be just like it is for a car license plate. For home builds, you could buy it for one year and it you have not certified the plane after a year, you lose it. I would have lost my number since I have had it for a couple years, but since I am King, I could exempt myself.

You nailed it....... Why would you want to say "nin er hoo tell pa pa" when you could just say...626.

I gave up my custom number because I hated scrolling back and forth to enter letters at the pump.

HAL Pilot 11-16-2019 12:32 AM

Apparently trying to make a change about N-numbers is considered political and not appropriate and has been removed, yet we can complain for or against them here.

So keep an eye out on social networks for a link to do something about it.

:-)

lr172 11-16-2019 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jpm757 (Post 1334581)
I have to give credit for the guy who thought this scheme up, but it is not in the interests of fair play.

It was simply copying the practice started with web domain names 15-20 years ago. Limited supply and strong, vanity-based demand creates a profit opportunity. I agree it is a shame but the FAA likely doesn't care and has other things to deal with.

Snowflake 11-16-2019 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HAL Pilot (Post 1386602)
Apparently trying to make a change about N-numbers is considered political and not appropriate and has been removed, yet we can complain for or against them here.

Commenting on site policy is also considered not appropriate so expect your post (and this one) to be removed as well...

I was looking for a registration that was easy to say on the radio, but when my initials came up as available, I went with that instead. When shortened to the last two letters it's pretty easy to say on the radio, and at least at my airport there isn't anyone with a similar registration to confuse anyone.

texdog 11-16-2019 05:27 PM

N numbers
 
I?ve had good success getting the N numbers I wanted. I was very patient and sometimes waited years to get one. I flew a twin Beech that was N711, I knew I could never get it. It has been in the same family for 70+ years. I did finally get N6711 just after an airplane was deregistered. It was on a Lockheed. I do like the number on my RV6A.

SJordan 11-16-2019 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HAL Pilot (Post 1386602)
Apparently trying to make a change about N-numbers is considered political and not appropriate and has been removed, yet we can complain for or against them here.

So keep an eye out on social networks for a link to do something about it.

:-)

Stay on it HAL. Get the FB page going and I will spread it like the plague to every pilot group I can find! I know some people that have actually meet with the FAA in Oklahoma in regards to Sean. Keep up the flight and the pressure and I know we can get this changed. Good work sir!

RV7A Flyer 11-16-2019 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SJordan (Post 1386723)
Stay on it HAL. Get the FB page going and I will spread it like the plague to every pilot group I can find! I know some people that have actually meet with the FAA in Oklahoma in regards to Sean. Keep up the flight and the pressure and I know we can get this changed. Good work sir!

That's really what it would take...all the alphabet groups to push for it.

On a side note, I'd like to understand why this topic falls afoul of the politics discussion ban. Seems like it's more about whether or not to push for *regulatory* changes to aviation, much like the discussions about driver's license medicals and then BasicMed, when those were being pushed.

Not arguing the rules or moderation, just want to know why, as this doesn't "feel" political to me.

Toobuilder 11-17-2019 06:28 AM

It looks political because the changes discussed here are not going to improve our ability to register and fly an airplane - we can do that today and we can do that tomorrow. What we have here is a perceived "injustice", and someone thinks we need to create law to solve that injustice. The basic premise of the topic- restricting the freedom of some (creating new law) so that others can get what they want - is inherently social/political.

I don't like the practice either, but fact remains the "scalpers" are not restricting our ability to register our airplanes, so this issue is not a "real" problem. The act of changing laws certainly does consume resources however - and that's a "real" fact. Let's be mindful of what we wish for.

9GT 11-17-2019 07:41 AM

Nobody can go online and run, or check, owner information of automobile license plates. The rules and laws that cover that are extensive and requires law enforcement to be trained to do that with strict consequences if those rules are violated. And those LEIN inquires are monitored and randomly audited. Why the FAA allows access to N number inquiries by anyone with a computer is beyond me. Put a stop to that, which they should for privacy, and problem solved.

Xkuzme1 11-17-2019 12:04 PM

So this dude is pumping out $10 to save each N number? Or is it $5.

It is enterprising for sure. I don?t completely agree with it... but I?m not necessarily completely opposed to it either.

The FAA has set their rules. They guy is playing by the rules. The rules are the problem.

X

McStevens 11-17-2019 12:29 PM

There are probably several N numbers that would meet my criteria. I still don't like this practice though but I agree it's the rules that need to change.

HAL Pilot 11-17-2019 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xkuzme1 (Post 1386850)
So this dude is pumping out $10 to save each N number? Or is it $5.

It is enterprising for sure. I don?t completely agree with it... but I?m not necessarily completely opposed to it either.

The FAA has set their rules. They guy is playing by the rules. The rules are the problem.

X


And that's what I am trying to change, the Rules.

So why is change a political thing? We have a front page sticky on this web site advocating that VANS AIRCRAFT design a back country aircraft. Looks like a petition to me.

I want to change the rules about N-Numbers. I'm not advocating any political party. I'm creating a petition.

The Government should stay out of creating monopolies except for the greater good like utilities. N-Numbers are not a utility, but the current rules have created a de facto monopoly. There is precedent in the FCC assignment system for exactly the thing we are talking about, creating a fair assignment system.

My 2C

Pilot135pd 11-17-2019 04:55 PM

I don?t mind it that much but your petition makes a valid argument regarding the FCC so I signed your petition.

bkervaski 11-17-2019 05:12 PM

Yet still no explanation as to how its a problem for anybody? Nothing stopping folks from getting N numbers.

RV8JD 11-17-2019 05:28 PM

HAL Pilot, I also signed your petition. You may want to display the link a little more prominently in your post, as it is buried in your sig file with no clear label.

HAL Pilot's link:

"change dot org link http://chng.it/KBPtXZYD "

Pilot135pd 11-17-2019 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkervaski (Post 1386903)
Yet still no explanation as to how its a problem for anybody? Nothing stopping folks from getting N numbers.

Did you read the Change. org petition? It's pretty much self explanatory why.

bkervaski 11-17-2019 08:53 PM

Quote:

Currently the FAA’s N-number reservation system has created a near monopoly on “custom” or desirable Aircraft registration N-numbers. This has lead to a price increase for “buying” an N-number of thousands of dollars. Organizations and individuals with deep pockets don't mind but general aviation pilots are being squeezed out by an unfair system unintentionally created by current FAA rules.
Like I said, there is nothing preventing anyone from getting an N number.

I don’t see any problem worth creating more unnecessary laws.

What these guys are doing is no different than internet domain names, vanity phone numbers, or real estate.

There’s some land down the street that I would love to build a house on and since the owner isn’t using it I guess we should petition the government to take it away while we’re at it.

alpinelakespilot2000 11-17-2019 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkervaski (Post 1386941)
There’s some land down the street that I would love to build a house on and since the owner isn’t using it I guess we should petition the government to take it away while we’re at it.

Not really a good analogy. In the case you describe it would be a government taking of private property. With n#’s we’re talking about the opposite, a private party taking of a public resource... more akin to a private party squatting on public land and demanding he/she be paid by someone else for its use.

Pilot135pd 11-17-2019 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alpinelakespilot2000 (Post 1386947)
Not really a good analogy. In the case you describe it would be a government taking of private property. With n#?s we?re talking about the opposite, a private party taking of a public resource... more akin to a private party squatting on public land and demanding he/she be paid by someone else for its use.

That analogy is more appropriate to this situation.

PilotjohnS 11-18-2019 02:49 AM

Easy
 
Is it me or is this too complicated. Just ban the sale of n numbers. They may be transferred with plane sale. Or transfered for free.

bkervaski 11-18-2019 06:21 AM

Quote:

In the case you describe it would be a government taking of private property
What is private property other than the government recognizing that someone owns it [by means of a "registration"]?

What about internet domain names?

What about vanity toll free numbers?

My point is .. really .. it's simply not a problem that has to be addressed. There's nothing stopping anyone from getting N numbers and laws like the one suggested just continue erode our freedoms over time making the lines gray on where to draw them and setting precedent that can be skewed by lawmakers.

Toobuilder 11-18-2019 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PilotjohnS (Post 1386964)
Is it me or is this too complicated. Just ban the sale of n numbers...

That's a slippery slope. The problem with that approach is that you need to expend scarce resources to create a new law, then you need to expend even more resources to enforce the new law when people find a perceived loophole. Let's not forget that during this policy review period, the powers that be are going to "correct" other issues and we may end up considerably worse off than we are now.

I could see the Feds saying "screw it - nobody gets to reserve an N number anymore. You will get what you are assigned and like it!". That brings equality to all of us.

bkervaski 11-18-2019 08:44 AM

Quote:

I could see the Feds saying "screw it - nobody gets to reserve an N number anymore. You will get what you are assigned and like it!". That brings equality to all of us.
Yep, that's what I would do if I were in charge of the registration system and the petition came across my desk.

However, being on the other side of the desk I say let's leave well enough alone :o

RV7A Flyer 11-18-2019 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkervaski (Post 1386976)
What is private property other than the government recognizing that someone owns it [by means of a "registration"]?

What about internet domain names?

What about vanity toll free numbers?

My point is .. really .. it's simply not a problem that has to be addressed. There's nothing stopping anyone from getting N numbers and laws like the one suggested just continue erode our freedoms over time making the lines gray on where to draw them and setting precedent that can be skewed by lawmakers.

What about vanity license plates on cars? Since you can't get a plate unless you have a car, that pretty much eliminates the "hoarding" or "squatting" we see here.

bkervaski 11-18-2019 10:18 AM

Quote:

What about vanity license plates on cars? Since you can't get a plate unless you have a car, that pretty much eliminates the "hoarding" or "squatting" we see here.
Good point .. but you still have to pay for vanity plates, at least in the states I've lived in.

gap 11-18-2019 10:31 AM

The issuing authority should just put expiring numbers on eBay for a week in a no-reserve auction. Let the government capture the extra value instead of the scalpers.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:51 AM.