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-   -   Using Call Sign in uncontrolled airspace (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=164516)

greghughespdx 09-27-2018 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alcladrv (Post 1291217)
I also use the call signs, however descriptive they may or may not be, and location to develop a mental traffic picture of the local airport area.

^^^ This, exactly. The content of your transmission is for consumption by others operating in the same area. Structure accordingly.

flion 09-27-2018 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rallylancer122 (Post 1291098)
Guess the FAR's are pretty conclusive on using the N number.

With the RV's what's the consensus on type? I still use "Experimental 233M", but with 10,000 RV's out there have we earned our own type specific identifier. RV 233M? Vans 233M?

I used to fly a Meyers and they only built a hundred or so of those, but they got their own identifier. Heck, the other day I heard a Wing Derringer on frequency. The controller had to ask about that one.

DEM

I'm surprised no one answered this. It's been discussed on the forums before. We have been given several identifiers. See this document, page A132 (page 145 of 598), down at the bottom. -A models are not listed specifically, so I use 'RV6' for my RV-6A. Experimental is also acceptable but doesn't give ATC much information about your capabilities; are you an experimental WWI replica or an experimental V-jet?

On the subject of this thread, I've been toying with applying for a special telephony for my RV-10. 'One For Maxine' to go along with the nose art rather than 'One Four Michael X-ray' would suit me better. Special telephonies have to be pre-assigned and are usually only granted for commercial carriers or for special events, emergency response, etc. But nothing prohibits anyone from applying, so I may give it a shot.

Sixgun 09-30-2018 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmilingJack (Post 1291088)
+2

What good is my N number to people in the uncontrolled pattern? Can they read it from their position?

I think a color and type is a lot more valuable to identify me.

Have always thought the same as you about N numbers., Also color . The intent is to Voice your position in the pattern you cant do the looking for anyone else..

greghughespdx 09-30-2018 09:24 AM

One real benefit of an N number in the pattern is that it allows people to paint a mental picture of where each plane is and their relative movement. I may not be able to recall a list of the N numbers of all the planes currently in the pattern, but when I hear the second radio call with N number and position info from an aircraft in my mind, I'm painting a picture of where you were, where you are and logically where you're going. The brain can do that even if you can't remember the name of who just spoke.

That said, see and avoid of course.

If my home airport's pilots called out stuff like "blue and white cessna on downwind" or "white RV three miles east" no one would know who was who. There are do many RVs and blue and white Cessnas out there it would just be more confusing than no radio a lot of the time.

Northernliving 09-30-2018 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuhtenia (Post 1291141)
As a new'ish private pilot and even newer RV-6A person, I find the tail numbers to be increasingly useful as ADS-B becomes more the norm. After hearing the call I glance at the area traffic to confirm I know where that person is, and the tail number makes an easy confirmation (if so equipped).

+1 on that one. I like to hear the N-number and then also see them on the screen - with the N-number. N-number and field position is the best, IMO. Colors can be second guessed, especially if there are a couple of red/yellow/white planes in the patter. I think offering the color could add dangerous complacency if there happen to be more than one of that color in the area.

Smilin' Jack 10-01-2018 09:37 AM

I am late in the post but I do follow what the FCC states as they not the FAA would do the violation.

As far as using Experimental at a control tower I was told by the FAA center Atlanta and Memphis, that they only require the word experimental on an unfamiliar experimental aircraft that "your RV is a common aircraft and in the database and need not use experimental."

so go figure? I have at PDK in Atlanta never used experimental just RVN507H
or CF 07H if I am on an Angel Flight. CF is one of the mercy flight recognized call
for aircraft participating.

Probably just muddled up the mess.

Smilin' Jack

JonJay 10-01-2018 10:14 AM

Change is hard!
I have now switched over and identify myself with an abbreviated call sign:
RV4AA and position.
I sound like a total rookie, mess it up by still throwing in color occasionally, and have to think twice.
Anyway.... after 20 years of doing it one way, and now trying to change isn't easy. I also have more than one aircraft which makes it even harder.

Still hearing no N number in lots of communications. On a recent trip, I heard every derivative of what is being discussed here, from full and complete call signs including type an color, to hearing position only, nothing else.

I will stick with what is "legal" and appreciate the discussion.

rv7boy 10-01-2018 11:11 AM

Distinctive radio transmissions
 
Besides the legalities I think an important part of radio communication is the distinctive sound of one’s voice, and this includes the speech pattern as well as the modulation by the radio transmitter. In addition to WHAT is being transmitted by other pilots, I try to listen to the distinctive sound of the transmission. I’m sure we all detect the differences of pilots’ radio calls without effort. If our radios converted our speech into monotone robot-sounding sentences, we’d quickly appreciate the distinctive sound of our individual radio transmissions.

This has been a very educational discussion. Thanks for all of the replies.

Lars 10-01-2018 02:14 PM

To add a little levity to the discussion...

The pilot of a certain well-known unlimited Reno air racer that was based at my home field for many years always self-announced his position using the call "Race 5", which was the number on the tail assigned by the air racing association.

I enjoyed hearing that call when I was in the vicinity of the airport. Regardless of my position I'd break off and let him go first because I knew I'd get an aerial view of a very cool P-51 Mustang entering the pattern and landing.

MarkW 10-01-2018 02:49 PM

Call sign
 
Well I am now with JonJay on this one. I always felt N numbers to be a waste and I used type and color. This is what I would prefer other aircraft to use.
After hearing so many use the ADS-B call sign and reading the regs again, I will now switch to RV 14MW on uncontrolled airports.
I have always used RV 14MW with ATC.
I have once been mistaken for Army 14MW since they kinda sound the same.

rvbuilder2002 10-01-2018 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smilin' Jack (Post 1292471)
As far as using Experimental at a control tower I was told by the FAA center Atlanta and Memphis, that they only require the word experimental on an unfamiliar experimental aircraft that "your RV is a common aircraft and in the database and need not use experimental."

It doesn't really matter what they say they do or don't require.

Your operating limitations are what state the requirement that on initial call to an FAA control tower, you identify yourself as experimental.

It is not a requirement when contacting enroute center or approach/departure control facilities, regardless of what they say they want or whether you are a common experimental or not.

pitts flyer 10-01-2018 03:30 PM

I fly an experimental exhibition Cessna 172 (1958), and its Operating Limitations only require that one reference the experimental nature of the aircraft when filing a flight plan (which I almost never do). Nothing about when talking to or initiating contact with ATC. I was doing young eagle flights Sunday and never once mentioned "experimental" to either the tower or to ATC (we flew from a class D field and were on flight following for each flight). No problem mentioned by ATC. But too I have ADS-B out, so ATC and anyone with and ADS-B receiver can see my N number. I normally say either Cessna NXXXXX (full call sign) or Cessna NXXX (abreviated call sign) when announcing position at uncontrolled airfields. Is there an AC or other requirement to announce "Experimental" to ATC?

Mel 10-01-2018 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pitts flyer (Post 1292542)
I fly an experimental exhibition Cessna 172 (1958), and its Operating Limitations only require that one reference the experimental nature of the aircraft when filing a flight plan (which I almost never do). Nothing about when talking to or initiating contact with ATC. I was doing young eagle flights Sunday and never once mentioned "experimental" to either the tower or to ATC (we flew from a class D field and were on flight following for each flight). No problem mentioned by ATC. But too I have ADS-B out, so ATC and anyone with and ADS-B receiver can see my N number. I normally say either Cessna NXXXXX (full call sign) or Cessna NXXX (abreviated call sign) when announcing position at uncontrolled airfields. Is there an AC or other requirement to announce "Experimental" to ATC?

Congratulations Dave. I wondered how long it was going to take someone to notice that that paragraph has not been in our operating limitations since the introduction or FAA Order 8130.2h in February of 2015. (Over 3 1/2 years ago)

On the other hand, if you have older op lims that DO include that paragraph, you are bound by them.

rvbuilder2002 10-01-2018 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mel (Post 1292543)
On the other hand, if you have older op lims that DO include that paragraph, you are bound by them.

Which is probably 95+% of the amateur built experimentals flying in the U.S.......

Tram 10-06-2018 07:34 PM

I personally don't care what people do, but the type/color guys just seems amateurish to me, based on the locals who seem to use this verbiage.

It's also annoying to have 2 or 3 red and white 172's in the pattern.

I like N numbers not for viewing but for positive communication and lack of confusion.

Color/Type with multiple aircraft of the same type in the pattern causes ambiguity, IMO..

I'm also an ""RV 314L" not "Experimental 314L."

flyinhood 10-07-2018 06:26 AM

Just got back from Ranger, TX fly in yesterday. Chose to file IFR to get there than cancelled when we had the field visually.

We obviously used our N number while IFR, until after cancelling. We entered the pattern behind a "yellow Maule and yellow biplane"

separation was maintained and everyone lived.

maniago 10-07-2018 06:58 AM

I use N number exclusively. I could care less what kind of airplane, helo or self-propelled flying car you are - youre a boggie in the air that I need to keep track of.

To belabor the point, some pilots are in-fact color blind, have crappy "corrected" vision, and are airplane-type stupid, so knowing these things is immaterial.

As some previous posters pointed out, youre just a smudge in the sky, so your existence and location is all I want to know. When were both on the ground, then we can BS about the pretty stuff.

Of course, just my .02.

Robert Anglin 10-07-2018 07:47 AM

Your call is what counts.
 
OK, this is just what we have found and not the law of the land, kind of thing.
The old NACA reports and military study's showed that after a cetane distance all aircraft become a gray dot in the field of view. Using an N numbers is cool, but if you are an EXp. it is a good idea to let ATC know up front. It is kind of like calling Piper XXX or Cessna XXX, it gives the ATC guys a mental picture of your type or to ask what type you are to get an idea of how to handle you in the system. This also works around the Patch even if you are not using ATC. And as we all know, using the shortest amount of words and clearest standard is safer for the most of us in the air. We try to stick to that format. On first call, we use "Exp. XXX", then if asked as does happen we use the Type identifier that is correct for our aircraft at the time, "RV-8". Then we go to the commonly accepted practice of shorting the call out to " XXX or XX". We have found that this format is well liked by ATC, works well around the Patch, sticks pretty close to what the rules ask us to do and makes things go smoother and safer. Just what we have found down through the years. Yours, R.E.A. III # 80888

Jaypratt 10-09-2018 08:55 AM

Idenitify?
 
Heading to uncontrolled airport.......30 miles out in my RV8. I hear...

Exp left down wind,, left base. It?s doing circuits,,, touch and goes...
Is it a Cub?..
Is it a jet?...
Is it an RV?...
Color? I don?t care, but if it?s an exp jet or exp RV or Cub,, that information might help me look closer to where it might be. Usually??? Jets fly a bigger pattern than a Cub.

YellowPeril 10-09-2018 10:52 AM

I am reminded of a tale that Bob Morse of the Lima-Lima flight team told me:

"There I was, leading a six ship formation of T-34s with a new guy flying tail-end-Charlie. As a matter of procedure, lead talked to ATC, and the rest of the guys in the flight monitored and communicated on a private freq."

"We were approaching Chicago, or Fort Wayne, or Indianapolis (I forget) at an altitude somewhere between five and seven feet above the published ceiling of the airspace in question."

"I hit the flip-flop on the radio and announced, 'Fort Wayne Approach, this is Bob. My friends and I are going to muss up your airspace for a bit. I'll let you know when we're done.' My wingman, without missing a beat replied 'Bob! Fort Wayne Approach. How you doin'? Do what you want. Let us know when you're through.' and added the altimeter setting as a nice touch."

"There was a pause, and then the new guy said, 'Wow.'"

Pilotjim77 10-09-2018 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YellowPeril (Post 1294245)
I am reminded of a tale that Bob Morse of the Lima-Lima flight team told me:

"There I was, leading a six ship formation of T-34s with a new guy flying tail-end-Charlie. As a matter of procedure, lead talked to ATC, and the rest of the guys in the flight monitored and communicated on a private freq."

"We were approaching Chicago, or Fort Wayne, or Indianapolis (I forget) at an altitude somewhere between five and seven feet above the published ceiling of the airspace in question."

"I hit the flip-flop on the radio and announced, 'Fort Wayne Approach, this is Bob. My friends and I are going to muss up your airspace for a bit. I'll let you know when we're done.' My wingman, without missing a beat replied 'Bob! Fort Wayne Approach. How you doin'? Do what you want. Let us know when you're through.' and added the altimeter setting as a nice touch."

"There was a pause, and then the new guy said, 'Wow.'"

:D

Great story!

cgeyman 10-13-2018 05:07 PM

Rv sounds like army
 
I use ?experimental xxxx? as flying the Denver front-range the Atc hears ?army? often instead of RV, so I gave up on this. Using n number also helps map the Adsb traffic as you are flying into congested airspace. They can always ask me my type and model later (rv9a)
Cal

Ironflight 10-13-2018 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgeyman (Post 1295241)
I use ?experimental xxxx? as flying the Denver front-range the Atc hears ?army? often instead of RV, so I gave up on this. Using n number also helps map the Adsb traffic as you are flying into congested airspace. They can always ask me my type and model later (rv9a)
Cal

But your experimental might be anything from a Homebuilt J-3 that ca max out at 60 knots, or a jet that can do 300....since this thread is about uncontrolled airspace, it really helps other pilots if you say something that helps them
know what to expect. When I get my Subsonex flying, I will probably call it ?experimental jet XXXX? until there are enough flying so people know what a Subsonex is. But just about anyone at an uncontrolled field knows what an RV is these days....

glongpilot 10-16-2018 01:51 PM

Announcing Call sign
 
The FAA requiring the call sign may have more to do with the FCC and radio licensure. There used to be a requirement (decades ago) for an actual license to use the aircraft radio. No test, just a fee. For many years I kept a wallet card with me. That is no longer required. None of my instructors have ever said anything about using color when identifying. Color may be just as difficult to see as call sign at a distance. Of course with the new ADS-B requirements going into effect in a little over a year your call sign is encoded in the ADS-B out and can be seen by everyone. But that has nothing to do with voice announcements of position.

BobTurner 10-16-2018 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glongpilot (Post 1295847)
The FAA requiring the call sign may have more to do with the FCC and radio licensure. There used to be a requirement (decades ago) for an actual license to use the aircraft radio. No test, just a fee. For many years I kept a wallet card with me. That is no longer required. None of my instructors have ever said anything about using color when identifying. Color may be just as difficult to see as call sign at a distance. Of course with the new ADS-B requirements going into effect in a little over a year your call sign is encoded in the ADS-B out and can be seen by everyone. But that has nothing to do with voice announcements of position.

Actually, there were two licenses required: one for you (a radiotelephone operator license) and one for the airplane (a base station license), and while the US no longer requires them most other countries (Canada, Mexico, Bahamas) still do, at least in principle. You can still get these documents on-line from the FCC (not FAA) for some outrageous fee.
As for ADSB, remember that in most places it will not be required. It remains to be seen how many GA aircraft comply.

JonJay 10-16-2018 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glongpilot (Post 1295847)
Of course with the new ADS-B requirements going into effect in a little over a year your call sign is encoded in the ADS-B out and can be seen by everyone. But that has nothing to do with voice announcements of position.

Don’t count on it. Many uncontrolled fields will not fall under the rule and I know folks that will not be equipped as they don’t/won’t fly in airspace with ADS-B requirements. ( sorry, was typing at the same time making the same point)


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