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-   -   Fun times at OSH arrival (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=162509)

snopercod 07-25-2018 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alcladrv (Post 1275848)
But, Boeing and Airbus? What are they doing at Airventure?

I think the event has become a lot more commercialized in the last 30 years and the nature of the attendees has changed. Rather than just us mad-monk homebuilders, the event is now oriented more to the general public. What year was it...1998?...when the Concorde flew in to OSH? Now THAT was awesome! Oh look, videos!

Low pass and landing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlxc6e956lU

Takeoff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0pCWn3qLyI

thinkn9a 07-25-2018 06:40 AM

Brainstorming, con?t
 
Flow control

- simple system..... using registration numbers,.... group them into 3 or 4 groups,... assign them a time slot e.g. on hour to 15 min after,.... 15 min after to 30 min after,... if your number is not up,....you are not allowed within 10 miles of RIPON,.... fairly simple check could be made at touchdown if you are in your group or not,...

eric.the.blonde 07-25-2018 07:21 AM

Not just homebuilts
 
> I've seen a lot of good and nutty ideas on this thread. Keep it up.

> I love RVs. I'm building an RV. After looking at the 35th RV I'm ready to see something different. So I enjoy the company of Boeing, Airbus et al.

> From outside the box (way outside): Fill in the median on freeway 41 and taxi in from Fond-du-Lac.

> Build a nice grass N-S runway on the outer fringes of Camp Scholler with an alternate means of taxi to the parking/camping areas.

> As of Tuesday some areas of aircraft parking/camping were sold out. It doesn't work to have aircraft attempting to fly-in if there is no place to go. Would you be happier with a reservation and an assigned arrival day rather than breezily showing up at Ripon only to find dozens grumpily piloted aircraft in your face?

> In fact, the threat of a sell-out increases opening weekend congestion. What solution or thought process would Steven Leavitt and/or Steven Dubner propose?

OkieDave 07-25-2018 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vic syracuse (Post 1275867)
Many of you may know that I am the Homebuilt council chairman, am on the BOD, and am on the EAA Safety Council, left by Charlie Precourt. I want to assure all of you that this topic has been front and center in all of our meetings this week. As mentioned by many of you here, there is no single solution. We are going to be working on it as a group, and no doubt many of the suggestions mentioned here may be incorporated.

It does pain me to hear comments about not coming back. This is the greatest aviation event in the world, for everyone from Pietenpols to B-1?s, and we are victims of our own success. Throw in the weather and some other uncrontolloble events, and I agree it is a train wreck at times. We?re going to have a lot of good people working on it, I assure you. We need to continuously figure out how to safely get everyone here who wants to be here, and get them here at the right times.

There is no quick fix this week. Be patient, and be safe if you are still coming. And please don?t key the mic to express your thoughts to the controllers. I was embarrassed by some of the behaviors of our pilot community. It doesn?t help the situation.

Just remember that without you coming to Oshkosh, there is no Oshkosh. 😀
Vic


Thanks for letting us know that this is on the radar, Vic!

Thermos 07-25-2018 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by az_gila (Post 1275849)
In two more years it will effectively be that way... :D

OSH will still be non-rule airspace, ADS-B not required but must be operating if installed.

Seems to me that an arrival procedure that leverages ADS-B would be an SA benefit for pilots and a workload reliever for both pilots and ATC. There could still be a non ADS-B arrival procedure for non-equipped airplanes.

The FAA might get an electropolitical benefit by something like this...could encourage pilots to equip with ADS-B In and Out. Or not. :D

Carlos151 07-25-2018 07:47 AM

OSH mess
 
I was one of the arrivals in the mess on Saturday. After diverting into Dodge County, refueling and launching as dash 4 behind 3 other RV?s, and after 100+ Cessnas, we arrived over Ripon with the proper spacing, speed and altitude. While over the RR tracks I see a Cessna blowing by on my right, then a Navion try to do a descending rendezvous from my 7 o?clock clearly not seeing me. I bailed out to the left as the controllers announce the field is closed (1900?) and will remain closed until 140 Bonanza?s complete their gaggle arrival from Fon Dulac. ATC directs everyone to divert and come back tomorrow. Most do but I stuck around 20S of Ripon. At about 1930 a couple of planes approach Fiske and are allowed to continue up the RR tracks for a 27 arrival. I buster to Ripon, join the course rules, cleared in nobody in front of me and nearest behind me is at least 5 minutes back. Land on 27, clear to the right, double back to HS of 27 just as someone crashes a plastic plane, on the runway (1945?), runway closed again, ARGHHH! but happy I got in after 12 hours of this mess, nursing an alternator that decided to die on the way, so I?m one of the non ADSB guys not showing up on the pretty pictures.

Here?s my take away?s of the whole mess:

1. If you can?t read or follow the NOTAM then you have no business being here.
2. ATC unknowingly rewarded the non compliers and the rest of us were penalized.
3. ATC closed runway 27 arrivals for the Bonanza mass arrival. Why? Haven?t flown a Bonanza, but can they not stop on 36L/R like the rest of us?
4. If you want to fly formation with me, let?s brief before the flight please.
5. Old guy/gal, young guy/gal, doesn?t matter. I saw plenty of non compliance from all groups.
6. ATC, if you witness a NOTAM non complier like I?m sure you did, spin him out of the pattern to the back of the line. If he does not comply, hotline to the tower, ?XYZ aircraft inbound, DO NOT grant a landing clearance?. If he continues, 1-800-FAA, violation time.

Weather obviously played a big part of this weekend?s mess, but I think we can all agree that something needs to be done.

My 2 cents worth.

moosepileit 07-25-2018 07:55 AM

Dave Passhow and Van randomly gave my wife and I a cart ride on their way the a meeting. Van got cut off twice himself this year.

They are on it.

PilotjohnS 07-25-2018 07:58 AM

Mass arrivals
 
I am curious if the mass arrivals are helping or hurting the landing rate. Or are the being used by pilots to circumvent following the NOTAM and guaranteeing a no stress arrival at the detriment of others.

Being an RV builder, we should have a mass arrival for all homebuilts from 6 am Sat to 6pm Sat, all runways. Meeting point is Ripon.

odens_14 07-25-2018 08:13 AM

other ideas>

change 90 knots to 70 knots, and make it clear pilots can fly whichever is most comfortable for their airplane (70/1800 or 135/2300) I'm trying to think of an airplane type that can't fly at one of those speeds comfortably. In full on-slot mode, they could just sent all high aircraft to one runway and the slow to the other would hopefully eliminate backup's behind slower aircraft. Many airplanes wide open cruise is 90 knots, that works fine ripon to fisk, but they need to slow down to land and that can really stack up the planes on final

have more services available Fri/Sat/Sun to maybe spread the crush out, it's hard to come in to camp say Friday with no food and limited other services available.

Block time for the mass arrivals is published and only available for that time, i.e. if the weather doesn't work "sorry, better luck next year; fly the fisk approach". if the weather didn't work for the mass arrival it didn't work for many single flyers too; when it clears there's going to be a mad rush no matter what changes are made. at least if the times are published the ones who read the notam won't be showing up at that time and over filling the holds.

The military jets are a big part of the draw, so I don't see them canceling those, and they're not flying without clear airspace. However, I believe i read the field closed on Monday at their "scheduled" time even though they were 30+ min out?!? that makes no sense, with ATC what it is they should be able to call ahead their arrival at least an hour early with an accurate ETA, this closing time should be put on the ATIS so approaching pilots are aware.

flybill7 07-25-2018 08:25 AM

I would think having your head down in the cockpit looking at ADS-B is the last thing you would want in this situation.

az_gila 07-25-2018 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flybill7 (Post 1275899)
I would think having your head down in the cockpit looking at ADS-B is the last thing you would want in this situation.

Yes, but the fact that ATC could see your registration would make it easier for them to sequence arrivals and ask/tell the 'queue jumpers' to loop back. :)

tmcquinn 07-25-2018 09:06 AM

This was the first year I drove. It may not be the last. I'm so sorry to read about the experiences a lot of you had. I was sitting on the ground at a nearby airport listening to ATC and talking to the people who landed after running through their fuel.

I think it's great that EAA is taking the issues seriously but unless someone can get the FAA to play ball it seems like little will change.

I do think it's unconscionable that anyone actually qualified to fly an aircraft would treat the NOTAM like some optional recommendation. A few years spent on the ground might get their attention.

Thermos 07-25-2018 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flybill7 (Post 1275899)
I would think having your head down in the cockpit looking at ADS-B is the last thing you would want in this situation.

I absolutely agree that spending too much heads-down in the panel isn’t a good thing, but in a busy environment I’d be throwing away a valuable SA resource if I didn’t judiciously use ADS-B. Unless our airplanes and craniums are transparent, I guarantee our Mk 1 eyeballs wouldn’t have seen all the traffic that was around during Sunday’s furball! :D

scard 07-25-2018 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flybill7 (Post 1275899)
I would think having your head down in the cockpit looking at ADS-B is the last thing you would want in this situation.

This is what I?ve been saying. I?ve yet to find an RV driver that agrees.

1001001 07-25-2018 09:57 AM

This situation is clearly:

1. A significant safety issue that needs addressing,

And

2. An issue that deserves careful thought as to the possible causes, true root causes and contributing factors, and solutions.

It is great to brainstorm and throw out ideas without jumping to conclusions or blaming groups or individuals before all the facts are in and analyzed. I am sure that with the fine minds available, a good solution will be identified and implemented. At the same time, until that implementation is complete and proven, I will probably not fly in. Some things are beyond my personal risk tolerance.

I look forward to an improved future here, and encourage the EAA in its efforts to do a thorough job..

sblack 07-25-2018 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N941WR (Post 1275465)
Sunday evening we saw a V tail Bonanza ordered to go around as he almost landed on a Cessna. So the guy powered up, starts to climb, flies over the Cessna and lands in front of him. I'm guessing he didn't understand the term "Go around".

There was that great article in Flying (I think) way back, like 10-15 yrs ago called I have seen the enemy and it is us. Looks like not a lot has changed.

Why are people NOT getting violated for doing stuff like that? If people knew they would get nailed they would be less likely to be cowboys. I know it isn't fun for the FAA to do that but if they don't...

PerfTech 07-25-2018 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scard (Post 1275915)
This is what I?ve been saying. I?ve yet to find an RV driver that agrees.

?.I am in full agreement, and at times in heavily congested areas I turn my
screen off, and keep my head outside where it belongs. SEE & be seen!!!

chrispratt 07-25-2018 10:23 AM

Just curious, with all that traffic so close together how do you suppress "TRAFFIC" alerts on your ADS-B Out/In equipment? I would think it would drive you crazy, much less scare the heck out of you.

Chris

sblack 07-25-2018 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carlos151 (Post 1275884)
I was one of the arrivals in the mess on Saturday. .........
Here?s my take away?s of the whole mess:

1. If you can?t read or follow the NOTAM then you have no business being here.
2. ATC unknowingly rewarded the non compliers and the rest of us were penalized.
3. ATC closed runway 27 arrivals for the Bonanza mass arrival. Why? Haven?t flown a Bonanza, but can they not stop on 36L/R like the rest of us?
4. If you want to fly formation with me, let?s brief before the flight please.
5. Old guy/gal, young guy/gal, doesn?t matter. I saw plenty of non compliance from all groups.


6. ATC, if you witness a NOTAM non complier like I?m sure you did, spin him out of the pattern to the back of the line. If he does not comply, hotline to the tower, ?XYZ aircraft inbound, DO NOT grant a landing clearance?. If he continues, 1-800-FAA, violation time.

I think this has to be step 1. If this is not addressed nothing else is going to work.

az_gila 07-25-2018 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrispratt (Post 1275927)
Just curious, with all that traffic so close together how do you suppress "TRAFFIC" alerts on your ADS-B Out/In equipment? I would think it would drive you crazy, much less scare the heck out of you.

Chris

Heck - Half (most?) of the traffic alerts won't even be shown since the non-ADSB folks are told to switch transponders to STBY before approaching Ripon.

hrhodes2@comcast.net 07-25-2018 10:43 AM

My alerts drove us nuts last year to the extent of wasted neurons clearing the alerts. Head inside to do it as well. Just like FMS entries in big airplanes one gets diminishing returns the closer to the runway when heads down & inside.

daniel_hagan 07-25-2018 11:07 AM

Have never had the opportunity to attend OSH and am hoping to next year. I have looked at the Notams every year for the past several years "just in case". That said, the idea of having two approach gates would seem to alleviate a lot of the problems. Mass arrivals allowed only in good VFR as discussed would also be helpful. The two ideas together would probably cure most of the problems.

tfriendshuh 07-25-2018 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scard (Post 1275915)
This is what I?ve been saying. I?ve yet to find an RV driver that agrees.

I agree :-)

MarkW 07-25-2018 12:12 PM

Arrival gate
 
Having two arrival gates makes a lot of since BUT. With one gate "FISK" they have the ability to keep the flow going when there is a problem on the runway or mass arrivals shut down a runway for a period.
Can you imagine arriving at gate "B" and being told to use gate "A" because they are shutting down for a half hour of mass arrivals.
Single gate with multiple runways gives they more options.
No I don't have the answer either.

Maybe if they had a single gate during the MA's and limit that to only a few morning hours. Then they could have a set time of two gates with both runways and not allow 36 to be shut down for fly overs or MA's after that time.
They could still work in the IFR, Warbird, demo and show planes arrivals with regular flow.
I spent some time listening and watching arrivals Sunday and Monday and I was surprised at how slow the traffic seamed.
I thought they could have easily used 1/2 mile spacing. There were a few periods of saturation that required a few go-arounds but that seemed to be a function of controller/pilot error. The poor IFR Gulfstream went around twice and finally made the third time.

roadrunner20 07-25-2018 12:24 PM

Flying In & Out of Oshkosh seesion today
 
I'm attending a forum session at 1430 today.

Flying In & Out of Oshkosh

This is presented by the NATCA Controllers.


This will be a very interesting one.
See you all at Forum Stage 6

jonweisw 07-25-2018 12:40 PM

Here's an idea -

Use the same flow-control reservation paradigm that IFR traffic has to use. That way, in order to arrive VFR at OSH, you would need to obtain a reservation for a particular arrival slot in advance. This would allow them to control how many aircraft arrive at any given hour and would at least encourage people to read the NOTAM. The accountability could be manifest by not parking anyone who's tail number didn't match up with an arrival slot reservation.

Would also limit the number of mass arrivals at any given time.

Toobuilder 07-25-2018 12:55 PM

So we hear a lot about the arrival being saturated in this thread - Was the actual runway pattern also saturated as well?

In other words, was tower consistently landing airplanes at minimum spacing?

Raymo 07-25-2018 01:22 PM

I'm another that opted to stay home due to the weather outlook for Friday, Saturday and Sunday - and guessing everyone would be trying to get in Sunday afternoon and/or Monday. After reading most of this thread, I know I made the right choice. Unfortunately for Tom (TS FLightLines) Swearengen, he had to drive 18 hours instead of enjoying a relatively short flight.

It would have been my first trip to OSH. Maybe next year!

Turbo69bird 07-25-2018 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakej (Post 1275593)
My first flight into OSH - what an interesting spectacle, I?m surprised there were no mid airs.
So now that we have ADSB don?t people realise that others can see & record what you do ? Whenever we click on an aircraft in FLT rdr24 we can see you & all of the tracking you did & it wasn?t pretty :eek:
The selfish, downright dangerous & stupid ones were obvious. I know the weather caused pent up demand for arrivals however that does not excuse the behaviour of many people.

I feel this is a watershed moment for the Oshkosh event & wonder what the FEDs must be thinking. Those who did obviously dangerous things have, IMO, just done a lot of damage to our industry & the good relationships that many people have strived to achieve with the regulators - hang your heads in shame.

Well said, was going to fly there for the first time w my daughter so glad I didn?t go.

Someone should dedicate a website to the selfish idiots who cut people off and did dangerous things. Everyone makes mistakes but you?re absolutely rightt that thiose who blatantly cut people off and ignored the notam should be shamed. That **** could cost someone their life.

RV7A Flyer 07-25-2018 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by odens_14 (Post 1275895)
change 90 knots to 70 knots, and make it clear pilots can fly whichever is most comfortable for their airplane (70/1800 or 135/2300) I'm trying to think of an airplane type that can't fly at one of those speeds comfortably.

You could specify any speed, and there will be a significant number who will insist that they have to fly at some *other* speed. There are always excuses.

I sensed that those speed differentials were adding quite a bit to the spacing problem. It doesn't matter a bit if one flies at the assigned airspeed if either a) the guy behind you is faster, or b) the guy in front is slower, or c) both, spacing is going to get all bolluxed up.

That and I wonder if the spacing is poor from the start (RIPON) because it's a choke point, and if maybe having 2 or 3 "transitions" to RIPON would help? Say, start at points A, B and maybe C with 1-mile spacing, then those three paths merge at RIPON and assume 1/2 mile spacing *at the correct speed*. Might that work instead of a jumble of aircraft all arriving at a single point from multiple directions and at varying speeds?

Thinking out loud here...

sbalmos 07-25-2018 03:04 PM

The ATC forum was predictable. Multiple approaches would just move problems elsewhere, and the ubiquitous "staffing shortages" excuses. They tend to believe the mass arrivals are /more/ efficient because they land 3 abreast the 2 36s.

The big shocker is a ton of time was gummed up from an "unplanned/unannounced" mass arrival of 70(!!!) T-6 Texans. How the **** can you have a mass arrival that OSH controllers know nothing about? Something's amiss there, or someone needs their butt chewed royally for that if that really is true that the Texan mass arrival was completely unknown.

sahrens 07-25-2018 03:45 PM

A couple of thoughts/ observations. On Sunday the pattern was surprisingly quiet due to the mass arrival of the Mooneys, bonanzas and T-6s. I was expecting a mass arrival of single aircraft hitting their dots on 36, it didn?t materialize. I assumed at the time the wx was bad at Ripon.
I?m sure it was nice to have Music playing while they announced your call sign but with the mess at Ripon EAA should have stepped in and stopped the mass arrival show. Land in your spot and move off the runway like everyone else. Perhaps a minimum wx standard should be established. If it?s 3000 and 5 your mass arrival is good to go, otherwise it?s canceled...get in line.

cgroves 07-25-2018 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sahrens (Post 1275998)
I?m sure it was nice to have Music playing while they announced your call sign but with the mess at Ripon EAA should have stepped in and stopped the mass arrival show.

I wasn?t aware of this one, I thought the mass arrivals would be setup to maximize runway utilization, not a single file parade.

DougJ 07-25-2018 06:47 PM

So the mass Mooney arrival sahrens mentioned... We flew out together from CA and as he said arrived on Saturday. Some issues there but nothing like Sunday.

We happened to be out there during the Mooney mass arrival, and I gotta say it was ridiculous. Elements A through Z or whatever, looked like each element was a three ship. A female announcer/pilot from the group on the PA introduced each one ?element whatever, lead by Billy Bob from Podunk, call sign crusher - blah blah for each one. This went on for ages as the song ?Ride of the Valkyrie? played over and over. Are you s*&tting me?

I was ambivalent the about mass arrival issues until this trip, but the Mooney BS put it over the top. You want a mass arrival? OK, here?s your slot time and weather mins, miss it and that?s just too bad.

joe_rainbolt 07-25-2018 07:11 PM

Re: cutting in line
 
I'm not at Oshkosh this year and I've only flown in myself once. Fortunately on my flight which occurred on Monday morning last year, I had good weather. Although I did not personally observe any bad airmanship, I would describe the experience as rather chaotic. From the sound of it, I guess I was just lucky.

Having just read this entire thread, I would like to better understand what people mean when that say that they observed people cutting in line.
Is it that some aircraft joined the line between Ripon and Fisk without having first flown over Ripon?
Were these bad actors not actually over the railroad tracks?

I can certainly understand why someone who was directly over the railroad tracks and had their altitude and airspeed nailed, would be infuriated at seeing someone else passing them on the right (or anywhere else) or entering the line ahead of them.

Paul K 07-25-2018 07:14 PM

Monday arrival
 
Our Monday mid morning arrival sounds like a lot of your arrivals. We were in one hold or another for over 2hours, thankfully fuel was not an issue.

A couple of suggestions / observations;

We were in hold for over 3/4 hour when the B1 arrived. Why can't they arrive during the airshow? It would be exciting and easy to plan in and not disruptive to the rest of us. This delay snowballed into total loss of control by ATC.

The mass arrivals are fine but they should have a different entrance and be restricted to just one runway. If conditions don't allow, then get in line with everyone else!

Don't restrict or disrespect spam cans because this is the EAA. I discovered experimental by flying into OSH with my Cardinal before I knew anything about RVs or home building! I was introduced to the most exciting and satisfying building, ownership, and flying community imaginable! Don't remove this opportunity from future builders.

Holding special events (beer tasting Sunday night) and others, creates a lot of "get there itis" I love these events and understand their existence but .......

Just some thoughts.

Carlos151 07-25-2018 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joe_rainbolt (Post 1276031)
Is it that some aircraft joined the line between Ripon and Fisk without having first flown over Ripon?
Were these bad actors not actually over the railroad tracks?

I can certainly understand why someone who was directly over the railroad tracks and had their altitude and airspeed nailed, would be infuriated at seeing someone else passing them on the right (or anywhere else) or entering the line ahead of them.

This is EXACTLY what we?re saying. When people don?t even bother to read or let alone follow the NOTAM, there should be repercussions.

cgroves 07-25-2018 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joe_rainbolt (Post 1276031)
I'm not at Oshkosh this year and I've only flown in myself once. Fortunately on my flight which occurred on Monday morning last year, I had good weather. Although I did not personally observe any bad airmanship, I would describe the experience as rather chaotic. From the sound of it, I guess I was just lucky.

Having just read this entire thread, I would like to better understand what people mean when that say that they observed people cutting in line.
Is it that some aircraft joined the line between Ripon and Fisk without having first flown over Ripon?
Were these bad actors not actually over the railroad tracks?

I can certainly understand why someone who was directly over the railroad tracks and had their altitude and airspeed nailed, would be infuriated at seeing someone else passing them on the right (or anywhere else) or entering the line ahead of them.

I saw lots of short cuts over Rush Lake, joining well inside Ripon, or my favourite: turning right at Fisk and flying against traffic just South of the track

DanH 07-25-2018 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toobuilder (Post 1275963)
So we hear a lot about the arrival being saturated in this thread - Was the actual runway pattern also saturated as well?

In other words, was tower consistently landing airplanes at minimum spacing?

Not Sunday afternoon on 36L and 36R. Not even close.

Carlos151 07-25-2018 07:32 PM

Is this the EAA or the CAA
 
I?m a little confused here. Is this the Experimental Aircraft Association or the Certificated Aircraft Association?

No disrespect intentended here but all of these spam can drivers want what we have. So why exactly do Cessna, Mooney, Bonanza, etc mass gaggle fly ins get priority? If ANYONE should get priority, it should be an Experimental aircraft on the arrival.

READ THE NOTAM, join the line at RIPON like the rest of us, fly the course rules as directed in the NOTAM and come join the fun. You want a Cessna, Bonanza, etc reunion, please go somewhere else.


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