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Low pass and landing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlxc6e956lU Takeoff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0pCWn3qLyI |
Brainstorming, con?t
Flow control
- simple system..... using registration numbers,.... group them into 3 or 4 groups,... assign them a time slot e.g. on hour to 15 min after,.... 15 min after to 30 min after,... if your number is not up,....you are not allowed within 10 miles of RIPON,.... fairly simple check could be made at touchdown if you are in your group or not,... |
Not just homebuilts
> I've seen a lot of good and nutty ideas on this thread. Keep it up.
> I love RVs. I'm building an RV. After looking at the 35th RV I'm ready to see something different. So I enjoy the company of Boeing, Airbus et al. > From outside the box (way outside): Fill in the median on freeway 41 and taxi in from Fond-du-Lac. > Build a nice grass N-S runway on the outer fringes of Camp Scholler with an alternate means of taxi to the parking/camping areas. > As of Tuesday some areas of aircraft parking/camping were sold out. It doesn't work to have aircraft attempting to fly-in if there is no place to go. Would you be happier with a reservation and an assigned arrival day rather than breezily showing up at Ripon only to find dozens grumpily piloted aircraft in your face? > In fact, the threat of a sell-out increases opening weekend congestion. What solution or thought process would Steven Leavitt and/or Steven Dubner propose? |
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Thanks for letting us know that this is on the radar, Vic! |
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Seems to me that an arrival procedure that leverages ADS-B would be an SA benefit for pilots and a workload reliever for both pilots and ATC. There could still be a non ADS-B arrival procedure for non-equipped airplanes. The FAA might get an electropolitical benefit by something like this...could encourage pilots to equip with ADS-B In and Out. Or not. :D |
OSH mess
I was one of the arrivals in the mess on Saturday. After diverting into Dodge County, refueling and launching as dash 4 behind 3 other RV?s, and after 100+ Cessnas, we arrived over Ripon with the proper spacing, speed and altitude. While over the RR tracks I see a Cessna blowing by on my right, then a Navion try to do a descending rendezvous from my 7 o?clock clearly not seeing me. I bailed out to the left as the controllers announce the field is closed (1900?) and will remain closed until 140 Bonanza?s complete their gaggle arrival from Fon Dulac. ATC directs everyone to divert and come back tomorrow. Most do but I stuck around 20S of Ripon. At about 1930 a couple of planes approach Fiske and are allowed to continue up the RR tracks for a 27 arrival. I buster to Ripon, join the course rules, cleared in nobody in front of me and nearest behind me is at least 5 minutes back. Land on 27, clear to the right, double back to HS of 27 just as someone crashes a plastic plane, on the runway (1945?), runway closed again, ARGHHH! but happy I got in after 12 hours of this mess, nursing an alternator that decided to die on the way, so I?m one of the non ADSB guys not showing up on the pretty pictures.
Here?s my take away?s of the whole mess: 1. If you can?t read or follow the NOTAM then you have no business being here. 2. ATC unknowingly rewarded the non compliers and the rest of us were penalized. 3. ATC closed runway 27 arrivals for the Bonanza mass arrival. Why? Haven?t flown a Bonanza, but can they not stop on 36L/R like the rest of us? 4. If you want to fly formation with me, let?s brief before the flight please. 5. Old guy/gal, young guy/gal, doesn?t matter. I saw plenty of non compliance from all groups. 6. ATC, if you witness a NOTAM non complier like I?m sure you did, spin him out of the pattern to the back of the line. If he does not comply, hotline to the tower, ?XYZ aircraft inbound, DO NOT grant a landing clearance?. If he continues, 1-800-FAA, violation time. Weather obviously played a big part of this weekend?s mess, but I think we can all agree that something needs to be done. My 2 cents worth. |
Dave Passhow and Van randomly gave my wife and I a cart ride on their way the a meeting. Van got cut off twice himself this year.
They are on it. |
Mass arrivals
I am curious if the mass arrivals are helping or hurting the landing rate. Or are the being used by pilots to circumvent following the NOTAM and guaranteeing a no stress arrival at the detriment of others.
Being an RV builder, we should have a mass arrival for all homebuilts from 6 am Sat to 6pm Sat, all runways. Meeting point is Ripon. |
other ideas>
change 90 knots to 70 knots, and make it clear pilots can fly whichever is most comfortable for their airplane (70/1800 or 135/2300) I'm trying to think of an airplane type that can't fly at one of those speeds comfortably. In full on-slot mode, they could just sent all high aircraft to one runway and the slow to the other would hopefully eliminate backup's behind slower aircraft. Many airplanes wide open cruise is 90 knots, that works fine ripon to fisk, but they need to slow down to land and that can really stack up the planes on final have more services available Fri/Sat/Sun to maybe spread the crush out, it's hard to come in to camp say Friday with no food and limited other services available. Block time for the mass arrivals is published and only available for that time, i.e. if the weather doesn't work "sorry, better luck next year; fly the fisk approach". if the weather didn't work for the mass arrival it didn't work for many single flyers too; when it clears there's going to be a mad rush no matter what changes are made. at least if the times are published the ones who read the notam won't be showing up at that time and over filling the holds. The military jets are a big part of the draw, so I don't see them canceling those, and they're not flying without clear airspace. However, I believe i read the field closed on Monday at their "scheduled" time even though they were 30+ min out?!? that makes no sense, with ATC what it is they should be able to call ahead their arrival at least an hour early with an accurate ETA, this closing time should be put on the ATIS so approaching pilots are aware. |
I would think having your head down in the cockpit looking at ADS-B is the last thing you would want in this situation.
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This was the first year I drove. It may not be the last. I'm so sorry to read about the experiences a lot of you had. I was sitting on the ground at a nearby airport listening to ATC and talking to the people who landed after running through their fuel.
I think it's great that EAA is taking the issues seriously but unless someone can get the FAA to play ball it seems like little will change. I do think it's unconscionable that anyone actually qualified to fly an aircraft would treat the NOTAM like some optional recommendation. A few years spent on the ground might get their attention. |
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This situation is clearly:
1. A significant safety issue that needs addressing, And 2. An issue that deserves careful thought as to the possible causes, true root causes and contributing factors, and solutions. It is great to brainstorm and throw out ideas without jumping to conclusions or blaming groups or individuals before all the facts are in and analyzed. I am sure that with the fine minds available, a good solution will be identified and implemented. At the same time, until that implementation is complete and proven, I will probably not fly in. Some things are beyond my personal risk tolerance. I look forward to an improved future here, and encourage the EAA in its efforts to do a thorough job.. |
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Why are people NOT getting violated for doing stuff like that? If people knew they would get nailed they would be less likely to be cowboys. I know it isn't fun for the FAA to do that but if they don't... |
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screen off, and keep my head outside where it belongs. SEE & be seen!!! |
Just curious, with all that traffic so close together how do you suppress "TRAFFIC" alerts on your ADS-B Out/In equipment? I would think it would drive you crazy, much less scare the heck out of you.
Chris |
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My alerts drove us nuts last year to the extent of wasted neurons clearing the alerts. Head inside to do it as well. Just like FMS entries in big airplanes one gets diminishing returns the closer to the runway when heads down & inside.
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Have never had the opportunity to attend OSH and am hoping to next year. I have looked at the Notams every year for the past several years "just in case". That said, the idea of having two approach gates would seem to alleviate a lot of the problems. Mass arrivals allowed only in good VFR as discussed would also be helpful. The two ideas together would probably cure most of the problems.
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Arrival gate
Having two arrival gates makes a lot of since BUT. With one gate "FISK" they have the ability to keep the flow going when there is a problem on the runway or mass arrivals shut down a runway for a period.
Can you imagine arriving at gate "B" and being told to use gate "A" because they are shutting down for a half hour of mass arrivals. Single gate with multiple runways gives they more options. No I don't have the answer either. Maybe if they had a single gate during the MA's and limit that to only a few morning hours. Then they could have a set time of two gates with both runways and not allow 36 to be shut down for fly overs or MA's after that time. They could still work in the IFR, Warbird, demo and show planes arrivals with regular flow. I spent some time listening and watching arrivals Sunday and Monday and I was surprised at how slow the traffic seamed. I thought they could have easily used 1/2 mile spacing. There were a few periods of saturation that required a few go-arounds but that seemed to be a function of controller/pilot error. The poor IFR Gulfstream went around twice and finally made the third time. |
Flying In & Out of Oshkosh seesion today
I'm attending a forum session at 1430 today.
Flying In & Out of Oshkosh This is presented by the NATCA Controllers. This will be a very interesting one. See you all at Forum Stage 6 |
Here's an idea -
Use the same flow-control reservation paradigm that IFR traffic has to use. That way, in order to arrive VFR at OSH, you would need to obtain a reservation for a particular arrival slot in advance. This would allow them to control how many aircraft arrive at any given hour and would at least encourage people to read the NOTAM. The accountability could be manifest by not parking anyone who's tail number didn't match up with an arrival slot reservation. Would also limit the number of mass arrivals at any given time. |
So we hear a lot about the arrival being saturated in this thread - Was the actual runway pattern also saturated as well?
In other words, was tower consistently landing airplanes at minimum spacing? |
I'm another that opted to stay home due to the weather outlook for Friday, Saturday and Sunday - and guessing everyone would be trying to get in Sunday afternoon and/or Monday. After reading most of this thread, I know I made the right choice. Unfortunately for Tom (TS FLightLines) Swearengen, he had to drive 18 hours instead of enjoying a relatively short flight.
It would have been my first trip to OSH. Maybe next year! |
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Someone should dedicate a website to the selfish idiots who cut people off and did dangerous things. Everyone makes mistakes but you?re absolutely rightt that thiose who blatantly cut people off and ignored the notam should be shamed. That **** could cost someone their life. |
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I sensed that those speed differentials were adding quite a bit to the spacing problem. It doesn't matter a bit if one flies at the assigned airspeed if either a) the guy behind you is faster, or b) the guy in front is slower, or c) both, spacing is going to get all bolluxed up. That and I wonder if the spacing is poor from the start (RIPON) because it's a choke point, and if maybe having 2 or 3 "transitions" to RIPON would help? Say, start at points A, B and maybe C with 1-mile spacing, then those three paths merge at RIPON and assume 1/2 mile spacing *at the correct speed*. Might that work instead of a jumble of aircraft all arriving at a single point from multiple directions and at varying speeds? Thinking out loud here... |
The ATC forum was predictable. Multiple approaches would just move problems elsewhere, and the ubiquitous "staffing shortages" excuses. They tend to believe the mass arrivals are /more/ efficient because they land 3 abreast the 2 36s.
The big shocker is a ton of time was gummed up from an "unplanned/unannounced" mass arrival of 70(!!!) T-6 Texans. How the **** can you have a mass arrival that OSH controllers know nothing about? Something's amiss there, or someone needs their butt chewed royally for that if that really is true that the Texan mass arrival was completely unknown. |
A couple of thoughts/ observations. On Sunday the pattern was surprisingly quiet due to the mass arrival of the Mooneys, bonanzas and T-6s. I was expecting a mass arrival of single aircraft hitting their dots on 36, it didn?t materialize. I assumed at the time the wx was bad at Ripon.
I?m sure it was nice to have Music playing while they announced your call sign but with the mess at Ripon EAA should have stepped in and stopped the mass arrival show. Land in your spot and move off the runway like everyone else. Perhaps a minimum wx standard should be established. If it?s 3000 and 5 your mass arrival is good to go, otherwise it?s canceled...get in line. |
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So the mass Mooney arrival sahrens mentioned... We flew out together from CA and as he said arrived on Saturday. Some issues there but nothing like Sunday.
We happened to be out there during the Mooney mass arrival, and I gotta say it was ridiculous. Elements A through Z or whatever, looked like each element was a three ship. A female announcer/pilot from the group on the PA introduced each one ?element whatever, lead by Billy Bob from Podunk, call sign crusher - blah blah for each one. This went on for ages as the song ?Ride of the Valkyrie? played over and over. Are you s*&tting me? I was ambivalent the about mass arrival issues until this trip, but the Mooney BS put it over the top. You want a mass arrival? OK, here?s your slot time and weather mins, miss it and that?s just too bad. |
Re: cutting in line
I'm not at Oshkosh this year and I've only flown in myself once. Fortunately on my flight which occurred on Monday morning last year, I had good weather. Although I did not personally observe any bad airmanship, I would describe the experience as rather chaotic. From the sound of it, I guess I was just lucky.
Having just read this entire thread, I would like to better understand what people mean when that say that they observed people cutting in line. Is it that some aircraft joined the line between Ripon and Fisk without having first flown over Ripon? Were these bad actors not actually over the railroad tracks? I can certainly understand why someone who was directly over the railroad tracks and had their altitude and airspeed nailed, would be infuriated at seeing someone else passing them on the right (or anywhere else) or entering the line ahead of them. |
Monday arrival
Our Monday mid morning arrival sounds like a lot of your arrivals. We were in one hold or another for over 2hours, thankfully fuel was not an issue.
A couple of suggestions / observations; We were in hold for over 3/4 hour when the B1 arrived. Why can't they arrive during the airshow? It would be exciting and easy to plan in and not disruptive to the rest of us. This delay snowballed into total loss of control by ATC. The mass arrivals are fine but they should have a different entrance and be restricted to just one runway. If conditions don't allow, then get in line with everyone else! Don't restrict or disrespect spam cans because this is the EAA. I discovered experimental by flying into OSH with my Cardinal before I knew anything about RVs or home building! I was introduced to the most exciting and satisfying building, ownership, and flying community imaginable! Don't remove this opportunity from future builders. Holding special events (beer tasting Sunday night) and others, creates a lot of "get there itis" I love these events and understand their existence but ....... Just some thoughts. |
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Is this the EAA or the CAA
I?m a little confused here. Is this the Experimental Aircraft Association or the Certificated Aircraft Association?
No disrespect intentended here but all of these spam can drivers want what we have. So why exactly do Cessna, Mooney, Bonanza, etc mass gaggle fly ins get priority? If ANYONE should get priority, it should be an Experimental aircraft on the arrival. READ THE NOTAM, join the line at RIPON like the rest of us, fly the course rules as directed in the NOTAM and come join the fun. You want a Cessna, Bonanza, etc reunion, please go somewhere else. |
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