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None of this sounds like any fun at all, and a lot of it sounds downright unsafe. If there is no mechanism other than goodwill and personal responsibility to discourage unsafe or impolite flying/line cutting, then how would we expect it to get better? Publishing a NOTAM/set of rules does little good if people don't feel they are bound to follow it. Hoping for good weather to smooth the arrival flow is not a real plan.
I would not want to risk my skin or my airplane in a mess like what has been described here. Driving seems like a less frustrating and safer option for me when I go in the future. Maybe just fly to a regional stop and rent a car or hail an uber. I like to think I am a decent pilot but jam me and a hundred other "decent" pilots into a situation we are not truly familiar with, and compound it with varying levels of experience and patience, and my performance will degrade along with everyone else's. Not a good recipe. I commend those who decided to bail and come back later. |
Was actually thinking the same thing Bryan, feeder routes and more metering points. Plus many of us have ADSB now. Have ATC start using it. Forget the Big Brother arguments for a moment. ATC can see along the route who is cutting in or has gotten too close, and cherry pick out the offenders.
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I can't see what they could possibly do different, there is just no way to land as many planes that were making the attempt Sunday into 2 or 3 runways; when the weather gets bad especially on opening weekend I think that's just the way it is. if you can land 150 planes per hour but there's 200 planes per hour showing up, there is nothing that can be done and as time goes on that extra 50 keep stacking up. With regards to putting controllers at Ripon, I think that would just push the cluster back a little further, the capacity issue at the runways is what is going to cause bottlenecks wherever the starting point is. For our group specifically, does anyone know what it would take to get our own slot blocked off? "RV's to Oshkosh" and get our own 2 hr slot on Sunday? While I miss some of the early festivities this is exactly why I prefer the second weekend since I've started flying in, 3 years now I've never had to turn back or hold on Friday morning; and as a bonus I only have to burn one vacation day. |
I have been flying with ADSB for about 3 years now and I have seen a trend of pilots using ADSB to purposely cut in front of other traffic. There seems to be a perception that if there is a safe gap in between two aircraft, then its OK to use ADSB to surgically insert one's self, despite the hazard that it may create. I see this almost every weekend at fly in breakfasts or where there is an arrival procedure, i.e... SERFI, Triple Tree, Oshkosh. In the old days, we didn't know what we didn't know about other traffic, we used a little more common sense. Now it seems we use ADSB to purposely fly closer to others in an effort to get ahead of them. A few weeks ago I watched a Cessna driver valiantly try to dive from 5000 ft to try to cut in front of me to the downwind entry, no radio calls, no common sense. Later in the breakfast line, I heard the same pilot bragging about being at Vne to try to get in front of that RV....
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From where I sat (for 5+ hours), if the controllers would break out specific aircraft from the line at Fiske to get their spacing with arrivals, the flow would work. The controllers would often just say ?STOP STOP STOP? and turn everyone out of the line so no one got in, just compounding things. They told the ones they broke out to rejoin at Ripon when there was already a good line up for 10 miles southwest of Ripon. The airshow was at Ripon. ATC needed to ?control? it. The pilots cutting in made it much worse and unsafe. After thinking about it over a beer, never again for me. I?ll go to plan B, thank you.
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I?ve flown in probably 8-10 times and will absolutely do it again. This year things were compounded because of the weather delaying all arrivals. I have landed and waited for the holds to clear once before, but usually we get right in. I would consider this year an anomaly. It is disappointing that it seemed like the ones that got in were the ones that didn?t follow instructions, but there will always be some of those. The procedure, as I see it, is adequate. There are probably over 10,000 planes on the ground here and not a single accident in all the holding. See and avoid has worked because most people read and follow the notam and they just put up with people cutting in and doing things wrong without making a big deal about it. I think the controllers did the best they could with what they had. I congratulate the controllers and the pilots for not having any mid-airs and am sorry for those who didn?t get in. It?s a great event and worth the hassle, IMHO. Blaming anybody for the trouble doesn?t do anything productive. Let?s just all continue to do what we can to be safe and suck up our pride when somebody is inconsiderate or ignores the procedure. I?m sure we?ve all done something wrong in our flying careers.
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When it was done by the trained and approved originators, "merging and spacing" was for IFR at ATC's approval. It was not just eyeballed, you could watch the closure and range and see the speeds.
See and avoid and VFR altitudes can only do so much if you think your ADSB picture buys you a passing right or short cut. Unintended consequences in aviation are a bit thornier than in many pursuits. Folks turned off to flying into Oshkosh in these threads is an example. Spent time Sun and Mon listening and watching at 9 threshold and the show. ATC did seem to say, "we're shut off" often, then just one runway. It would help if the patch from tower to arrivals giving and taking planes could be heard or explained by an insider. When traffic hits a critical point, it stinks, period. The Sat and Sunday weather did not help. |
Sunday evening
I was in the mess Sunday late afternoon for two rounds then diverting to Appleton. I am amazed at human nature. If I had a Cardinal pull around us at 50yards distance at any other time, it would be catastrophically unheard of. Discussions would be had. Tempers would flare at the FBO. All because it is obviously unsafe, illegal, and well below any personal minimums. Just because this is OSH, it seems acceptable or understandable given weather, ATC, get-there-itis, etc. What's worse, I stayed at it for one more round with the system obviously not working. Where were my convictions to personal minimums? Like road rage, the answer is obvious in retrospect. I can't see flying here again at this time.
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We (EAA Board) hear you (and many other flyers)
Being the Board member referenced, I can say the following:
We just spent the opening of the board meeting discussing this and will have a lot of people working to understand the root causes, propose solutions and establish action plans. This is a BIG DEAL for us! When there is something I can share, I will do so. Quote:
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I have not had the opportunity to fly into OSH but have been into Sun N Fun several times. (Also stayed at Holiday Inn ) and have gone thru the arrival procedure for OSH but not seriously planned a trip. Do they not use the TAXI as a parallel runway on both/or either 35 and 27? By splitting up the arrival points to two DIFFERENT locations ie FISK and KSIF looks they could use parallel runways to stage the traffic with complete separation from the other. BUT that's not going to help much on the ground handling saturation and parking issues.
I do agree it may be time to re look the arrival procedure for traffic volume just from the safety aspect. And don't misunderstand, I am NOT saying Sun N Fun has the greatest arrival plan by any means. |
I'd be interested to hear from someone watching on the ground Sunday/Monday, did it seem like the runways could handle more traffic? If all 3 available runways were operating at or close to maximum capacity no approach changes are going to make any difference in getting planes in any faster. No approach system is going to work if there is no where to put planes down.
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Air Rage
I'm thinking this past weekend will be one of those "benchmark dates" when we realize the term "AIR RAGE" came into our vocabulary.
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Whatever dude you don’t agree that is fine I am not going to argue.
What managers engineers have to do with flying into AirVenture is a bit of a mystery to me. I always thought it was about pilots and controllers. |
Oshkosh Arrival
Saw this crazy event unfold on Flight Radar 24. Couldn't believe what I was seeing and the near misses by a couple hundred feet. I can't believe that there wasn't an accident and no one was killed.
I'll will be going again to Air Venture but will still leave my RV-4 home. |
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And the point was I was making is that's it's ridiculous to blame an entire generation for behavior you don't like. Usually it's older disparaging younger ones, it's not original, and it's not accurate. It's basically this: ![]() ANYWAY. Nice to see they're taking these issue to heart and looking at ways to improve. Hopefully it's better by the time I plan to fly in. |
I do NOT choose to fly close formation with people I do not know. It is very easy to fly into FDL and take the bus.
Mark |
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Well that blows it for me.
After reading all this it is for sure I will either arrive well before the first Friday or not at all and come by commercial.
The one place sounded like you could land and then bus up. Who needs to die while going to an airshow? Dave |
Aside from the non-go around hop-frog, if the below was a V-tail, he scared the gazinks out of tower. Sun 3:15pm thereabouts.
The notam of 1/2 mile nose to tail is generous enough. What seemed to gum up the works was ATC asking for one and at times two miles. Has that been done before? Folks cried out for 90 knots and 1800 feet far more often than I'd heard or heard of occuring. Busting everyone en masse to a left turn back to Ripon wasted runway time. Quote:
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They need 1 mile when down to 1 runway. 2 mile spacing I've never heard of. That does bring up another point - why did Tower keep shutting down runways. Before this year, the only shutdowns I've seen or heard is when someone has an accident. Seems like Tower had to keep "fixing" metering problems created by the Fisk controller.
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Well said
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Thanks Jesse! |
Why do they continue to have both runways be fed from Ripon to FISK. The runways operate completely independent so why not have a separate VFR arrival path for 18/36? It would half the traffic heading up the railroad tracks and be simple conga line for each runway. Could even have one line be the 90 knoters and another the 135 knoters. That alone would help out the huge discrepancy of folding in fast and slow at FISK.
I know there is a thousand issues with this suggestion, but maybe they are easier to solve then the one big issue being discussed in this thread. |
As a multi-year veteran of the Ripon knife fight, I'm glad the weather in Florida and along the entire route kept me home this year.
Thoughts for the future in no particular order: 1. Cancel all group arrivals and flybys when the weather goes south. I know all the planning they do but Plan B is single ship especially when your Notam'd time has passed. 2. Develop additional start points to augment Ripon. 3. Don't bother publishing a NOTAM because nobody seems to read it. 4. Don't bother making instructional "How to Land at Oshkosh" videos because, well, you know. 5. Every weather report published the entire week prior to opening day showed rain and IFR conditions persisting until Monday the 23rd, yet 10,000 airplanes showed up on Saturday. 6. Answers and corrective actions need be on hand when the FAA reviews the arrival footage and reads this thread and the like. 7. I'll plan for a early Thursday or Friday arrival for 2019. |
1 runway and 2 mile spacing
From what I deduced listening on tower freq?s and watching FlightRadar24, the problem was the weather induced pouncing on Ripon, exacerbated by spam-can mass arrivals and warbird arrivals that all happened in the space of 3-4 hours on Sunday afternoon, requiring a dedicated runway (36) for the mass gaggles, and overflow warbirds onto 09. Throw in the bizjets and IFR arrivals and it was mayhem. So the runways weren?t closed, they just weren?t available or dedicated for Fisk. The controllers seemed to be doing their usual awesome job of orchestrating the madness, and yes it sounded like a few rookie controllers, but with no place to land, it?s moot. Pilots not flying properly definitely didn?t help.
If EAA doesn?t do something to minimize the number of and priority given to, or even eliminate mass arrivals entirely, the experimental community, the backbone of EAA will continue to suffer similar malaise trying to get into their Mecca. Let GA do their mass arrivals somewhere else and take the bus like lots of guys had to do this week. Perhaps the concept of an experimental exclusive runway with easy access and entry, much like the ultra lights, but paved, should be entertained. Just thinking. Woody Quote:
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Brainstorming rules,... all thoughts recorded,... no criticism
After a while some wild and crazy things start to gel and point to something probably nobody thought of to begin with,...
Possible ?buckets? 1 - flow control 2 - crowd control. (Would not want to use the word enforcement) 3 - ? (Looking for others...) Ok,... I?ll start Flow control - force all to land at feeder airports within 100nm ( pick a number) - ?slots? can only be assigned when on ground at airport,...ready to depart in plus X,... control slots,...so no more than Y in hold around lake - lottery assignments on sequence,.... based on ?bids? for arrival windows,....real time updates as weather, etc impacts arrivals,.... e.g. if you flew the simulator at Osh this year,.. did you get a wait list text,...and could check real time where you were in the queue,..and could cancel if you decided to not make it Crowd control - ADSB has been mentioned,..hmmm - maybe border control needs training on aircraft - pre defined levels of action for busted NOTAM, and safety.... ( this could get me thrown off the forum) Anyway,..you get the idea..... |
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Thanks in advance or your help in helping to improve the safety in this area. |
Flying into OSH.
After reading all these comments, i am very glad i didn't spend the day and hundreds $$$$ in fuel on Sunday to try and get in ( and of course all the other costs lost like hotel,rental cars etc.). Sounds to me the pilots who were cutting in should be held accountable ( and they know who they are). They should be banned from entering OSH for at least a couple of years, Considering the mess they caused and of course the possible dangers of mid airs, that should be a minimum charge.
I also agree with the Mass fly overs, If you have these type of Weather problems the highest time wasters ( Mass flyovers) should be ruled out or rescheduled. And the B-1 Fly over that was late!! Give me a break!! Be on time or just flat reschedule. This cost all fuel and frustrating waiting again.. I also think EAA should consider Experimental aircraft have the priority over GA, after all isn't this what Paul P. started Oshkosh for???? I don't think he did it for Mass Mooney or Bonanza flyins!!! I "Might" Try again next year, Ill wait and see what comes from this. |
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The weather was fine - what was the driving force behind 2 miles in trail? |
Once I got past Fisk, it seemed I had the sky to myself.
Sure seemed like they could have had more planes in the pipe to 27, but that?s not my call (and Fisk is not the only pipe of arrivals). I am used to landing a thousand feet behind another plane and do it every weekend, so my level of comfort may not be the norm (and I know and trust those pilots!) I look forward to an evolution of the procedure based on the evolution of the types of planes that are coming to Airventure I was in the mess Sunday evening (was turned away) and Monday morning. I was hanging at 62mph multiple times:eek:. I bailed south after three wallowing laps around Rush and went high. It was like a different world at 2300?. Everyone was following the NOTAM exactly and nailed on speed and altitude. Still went around Rush four more times at least (lost count), but it was tolerable and controlled. Down low was amateur hour(s). |
Thoughts after a couple of post-show beverages...
Maybe it?s time for the FAA to consider making ADS-B Out equpage mandatory for Airventure arrivals in 2020. It would make self-separation a helluva lot less stressful for those of us with ADS-B In and make it easier to ID the line-jumpers and others who can?t/won?t comply with the NOTAM.
Just kidding...mostly. |
Crowds at Ripon
Would it help if ATC specifically announced "Holding over Green Lake in progress." The NOTAM is written to proceed to RIPON, then mentions what to do if holding in progress. If holding is not specifically mentioned by ATC, pilots will proceed to RIPON to see if they can get in. Once there, they either enter holding around the lake (overcrowding and hacking everyone off), try to circle around the RIPON area (dangerous), or make a right turnout with most people approaching from the south. This ATC announcement would blatantly encourage people not to approach RIPON instead of deducing it for themselves. Sunday ATC just told people "turn left and go back to Ripon and get behind someone." Shouldn't ATC be able to use ADSB data to see lake holding progress to know when to announce "OK to approach Ripon"
Also, if Ripon was only approached from the West/NW, people would be able to enter the tail of the holding pattern once open. Just spitballing after a bad experience Sunday. |
After reading this year?s iteration and last year?s experience it seems one recommendation makes sense. If you have a mass arrival slot or single ship (B1) and WEATHER IS ACCEPTABLE, do it. Otherwise cancel if IFR or min VFR and let the natural VFR flow occur when weather improves.
Not a silver bullet but hey it is EAA not SpamAA or WarbirdAA. Be Safe HR |
Ah, the B-1 and mass arrivals "disrupting" traffic. Who is Airventure really for? Seems like that's a question that needs to be addressed. The mass arrivals idea came about simply so a bunch of Bonanza pilots could camp together. As a result, they take up prime space in the North 40 and generally inconvenience everyone else 'in a good weather year' for their own benefit. In a poor weather year? Well, you already know what happens then.
I think it's time to end the practice of mass arrivals, except in very specific circumstances. All of those groups assemble at airports close enough to OSH that a simple phone call to OSH tower before they depart would get final approval for the operation. Criteria could be good VFR at OSH, say 3000' ceiling and 5 miles vis, AND a 2 runway operation in progress at OSH, so regular arrivals could continue on one runway while the mass arrival used the other. Maybe limit them them to maximum number of planes per "wave' with the waves spaced a half hour or hour apart. The subject came up when I struck up a conversation and had lunch with a fellow named Jake, who was making his first visit to Airventure. He was similar in age to myself, who made my first visit in 1975 and have made about 90% of them in the intervening years. I recounted to him that it was long before Hangars A,B,C & D were built. Beechcraft had a couple of airplanes and a tent about twice the size of Vans. Vans hasn't really changed their presence much. But, Boeing and Airbus? What are they doing at Airventure? I mentioned to Jake that, at least Cirrus had their roots in the homebuilt arena, even though the first Cirrus didn't look anything like the current models. Anyway, Jake was telling me of a Gulfstream on Monday who had to make 2 or 3 go-arounds while in the pattern and was getting increasingly annoyed over the frequency. Too which the controller simply gave a priceless response,"Welcome to Oshkosh.". |
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Many of you may know that I am the Homebuilt council chairman, am on the BOD, and am on the EAA Safety Council, left by Charlie Precourt. I want to assure all of you that this topic has been front and center in all of our meetings this week. As mentioned by many of you here, there is no single solution. We are going to be working on it as a group, and no doubt many of the suggestions mentioned here may be incorporated.
It does pain me to hear comments about not coming back. This is the greatest aviation event in the world, for everyone from Pietenpols to B-1?s, and we are victims of our own success. Throw in the weather and some other uncrontolloble events, and I agree it is a train wreck at times. We?re going to have a lot of good people working on it, I assure you. We need to continuously figure out how to safely get everyone here who wants to be here, and get them here at the right times. There is no quick fix this week. Be patient, and be safe if you are still coming. And please don?t key the mic to express your thoughts to the controllers. I was embarrassed by some of the behaviors of our pilot community. It doesn?t help the situation. Just remember that without you coming to Oshkosh, there is no Oshkosh. 😀 Vic |
Brainstorming,... con?t
As someone asked before,...what are the real bottlenecks? Is it taxiing capacity,...is it hold and breakout,..is it really runway? Is it trying to have all the different kinds of traffic at once?
Flow control - so,..windows for mixed and dedicated traffic? - lots of folks hate the the 90 kt. What about making a 70 Kt approach lane,...easier for slow pokes,...spacing should be workable - additional holding patterns,...with call out based on ADSB/ callsign and time to make the spacing about right,.... - or aligned so that alternating patterns could have visiblilty to merge - as stated earlier,...additional flow options based on weather,...including cancel of mass arrival |
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