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-   -   Fun times at OSH arrival (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=162509)

1001001 07-24-2018 06:29 AM

None of this sounds like any fun at all, and a lot of it sounds downright unsafe. If there is no mechanism other than goodwill and personal responsibility to discourage unsafe or impolite flying/line cutting, then how would we expect it to get better? Publishing a NOTAM/set of rules does little good if people don't feel they are bound to follow it. Hoping for good weather to smooth the arrival flow is not a real plan.

I would not want to risk my skin or my airplane in a mess like what has been described here. Driving seems like a less frustrating and safer option for me when I go in the future. Maybe just fly to a regional stop and rent a car or hail an uber.

I like to think I am a decent pilot but jam me and a hundred other "decent" pilots into a situation we are not truly familiar with, and compound it with varying levels of experience and patience, and my performance will degrade along with everyone else's. Not a good recipe. I commend those who decided to bail and come back later.

sbalmos 07-24-2018 06:33 AM

Was actually thinking the same thing Bryan, feeder routes and more metering points. Plus many of us have ADSB now. Have ATC start using it. Forget the Big Brother arguments for a moment. ATC can see along the route who is cutting in or has gotten too close, and cherry pick out the offenders.

odens_14 07-24-2018 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RV6_flyer (Post 1275627)
Unknown why ATC wanted everyone in trail with 1-mile separation. AT times, they asked for 2-miles. Is this an ATC slowdown? NOTAM says 1/2 mile in trail.

my perspective from the outside looking in via live atc. They were getting too many planes and needed to *try* and slow them down. I can understand how it would be frustrating to hear all planes being sent away from FISK but I never heard the tower slow down at all, so it's not like the runways were just wide open and they were sending people away for fun. My guess is the tower was the ones who told them no more for a few minutes.

I can't see what they could possibly do different, there is just no way to land as many planes that were making the attempt Sunday into 2 or 3 runways; when the weather gets bad especially on opening weekend I think that's just the way it is. if you can land 150 planes per hour but there's 200 planes per hour showing up, there is nothing that can be done and as time goes on that extra 50 keep stacking up.

With regards to putting controllers at Ripon, I think that would just push the cluster back a little further, the capacity issue at the runways is what is going to cause bottlenecks wherever the starting point is.

For our group specifically, does anyone know what it would take to get our own slot blocked off? "RV's to Oshkosh" and get our own 2 hr slot on Sunday?

While I miss some of the early festivities this is exactly why I prefer the second weekend since I've started flying in, 3 years now I've never had to turn back or hold on Friday morning; and as a bonus I only have to burn one vacation day.

WA85 07-24-2018 06:52 AM

I have been flying with ADSB for about 3 years now and I have seen a trend of pilots using ADSB to purposely cut in front of other traffic. There seems to be a perception that if there is a safe gap in between two aircraft, then its OK to use ADSB to surgically insert one's self, despite the hazard that it may create. I see this almost every weekend at fly in breakfasts or where there is an arrival procedure, i.e... SERFI, Triple Tree, Oshkosh. In the old days, we didn't know what we didn't know about other traffic, we used a little more common sense. Now it seems we use ADSB to purposely fly closer to others in an effort to get ahead of them. A few weeks ago I watched a Cessna driver valiantly try to dive from 5000 ft to try to cut in front of me to the downwind entry, no radio calls, no common sense. Later in the breakfast line, I heard the same pilot bragging about being at Vne to try to get in front of that RV....

RyanS 07-24-2018 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by odens_14 (Post 1275684)
...what it would take to get our own slot blocked off? "RV's to Oshkosh" and get our own 2 hr slot on Sunday?

While I miss some of the early festivities this is exactly why I prefer the second weekend...

I watched the mess yesterday and for the first time I was glad I was sitting at my computer and not up flying. It was insane. The only way I would attempt to come in the first weekend would be with the "RV's to Oshkosh". With so many RV's flying now, you'd think it would be possible to put together.

aerovin 07-24-2018 06:59 AM

From where I sat (for 5+ hours), if the controllers would break out specific aircraft from the line at Fiske to get their spacing with arrivals, the flow would work. The controllers would often just say ?STOP STOP STOP? and turn everyone out of the line so no one got in, just compounding things. They told the ones they broke out to rejoin at Ripon when there was already a good line up for 10 miles southwest of Ripon. The airshow was at Ripon. ATC needed to ?control? it. The pilots cutting in made it much worse and unsafe. After thinking about it over a beer, never again for me. I?ll go to plan B, thank you.

Jesse 07-24-2018 07:01 AM

I?ve flown in probably 8-10 times and will absolutely do it again. This year things were compounded because of the weather delaying all arrivals. I have landed and waited for the holds to clear once before, but usually we get right in. I would consider this year an anomaly. It is disappointing that it seemed like the ones that got in were the ones that didn?t follow instructions, but there will always be some of those. The procedure, as I see it, is adequate. There are probably over 10,000 planes on the ground here and not a single accident in all the holding. See and avoid has worked because most people read and follow the notam and they just put up with people cutting in and doing things wrong without making a big deal about it. I think the controllers did the best they could with what they had. I congratulate the controllers and the pilots for not having any mid-airs and am sorry for those who didn?t get in. It?s a great event and worth the hassle, IMHO. Blaming anybody for the trouble doesn?t do anything productive. Let?s just all continue to do what we can to be safe and suck up our pride when somebody is inconsiderate or ignores the procedure. I?m sure we?ve all done something wrong in our flying careers.

moosepileit 07-24-2018 07:13 AM

When it was done by the trained and approved originators, "merging and spacing" was for IFR at ATC's approval. It was not just eyeballed, you could watch the closure and range and see the speeds.

See and avoid and VFR altitudes can only do so much if you think your ADSB picture buys you a passing right or short cut.

Unintended consequences in aviation are a bit thornier than in many pursuits. Folks turned off to flying into Oshkosh in these threads is an example.

Spent time Sun and Mon listening and watching at 9 threshold and the show.

ATC did seem to say, "we're shut off" often, then just one runway. It would help if the patch from tower to arrivals giving and taking planes could be heard or explained by an insider.

When traffic hits a critical point, it stinks, period. The Sat and Sunday weather did not help.

Wiley 07-24-2018 07:18 AM

Sunday evening
 
I was in the mess Sunday late afternoon for two rounds then diverting to Appleton. I am amazed at human nature. If I had a Cardinal pull around us at 50yards distance at any other time, it would be catastrophically unheard of. Discussions would be had. Tempers would flare at the FBO. All because it is obviously unsafe, illegal, and well below any personal minimums. Just because this is OSH, it seems acceptable or understandable given weather, ATC, get-there-itis, etc. What's worse, I stayed at it for one more round with the system obviously not working. Where were my convictions to personal minimums? Like road rage, the answer is obvious in retrospect. I can't see flying here again at this time.

jclark 07-24-2018 07:56 AM

We (EAA Board) hear you (and many other flyers)
 
Being the Board member referenced, I can say the following:

We just spent the opening of the board meeting discussing this and will have a lot of people working to understand the root causes, propose solutions and establish action plans.

This is a BIG DEAL for us!

When there is something I can share, I will do so.


Quote:

Originally Posted by RV6_flyer (Post 1275627)
This is the 19th AirVenture that I have flown my RV to. IF I experience another year like this one, I will no longer fly my RV to AirVenture.

I put 2.6 hours on my hobbs meter going from KUNU to KOSH. It should not take 2.6 hours to fly from 41-nautical miles even at 90 kts NOTAM arrival.

Unknown why ATC wanted everyone in trail with 1-mile separation. AT times, they asked for 2-miles. Is this an ATC slowdown? NOTAM says 1/2 mile in trail.

My APRS track shows 2.2-hours. The other 0.4 hours on the hobbs must be taxi time as there was a long wait sitting waiting for ATC to let us cross RWY 27.

Here is what the ground track looked like on aprs.fi.



You may still be able to see my track on AirPRS.com if the site has not gone dark.

This is what the AirPRS track looks like:


This is what traffic looked like toward the end of the hold that started at 7:50 AM.



I did report my negative arrival experience to an EAA Board Member and promised to follow up with an email. I have a friend that is working ATC here and plan to inquire what his understanding is of all the bad experiences being reported this year.

One BIG mess up today was the B1 morning fly by. They closed the airport to arrives during the schedule B1 time slot. It did not show on time. When it showed up almost one hour later, they closed the airport. This screw up is why I think I flew so long in a holding pattern. In my opinion, when the schedule time was missed, another one should not have been given.

I may be the only one that does not mind holding for the rescheduled mass arrivals but not for my tax dollars being wasted to make noise and causing me to spend more money to fly a holding pattern.



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