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-   -   Fun times at OSH arrival (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=162509)

Piplnr65656 07-25-2018 07:50 PM

Meanwhile over at the seaplane base...makes me wish I could put floats on the RV.

It?s like a whole ?nother world over there.

Timberwolf 07-25-2018 08:00 PM

I think we're missing the mark here. This is sponsored by the EAA, but is intended to bring all GA and beyond aircraft together so we can learn from each other. Not to be political here but people are getting a little too segregational with this whole thing. Yes the focus is on Experimental, but if it wasn't for the certified realm, we wouldn't even exist. The issue isn't with the mass arrivals and what airplane is which, but with the fact that they are rejecting experimentals in lieu of certified's which have abided by the NOTAM. The plain and simple fact is the arrival process needs to evolve to accept such a large number of aircraft. The mass arrival's are just playing by the rules to get a large number of XX type in at the same time allowing them to essentially circumvent the NOTAM, and it makes it easier for them, but screws the rest of us. As has been said previously, almost all of us have had our start in certified's; we are forgetting our roots thinking we are better than everyone else since we are flying an Experimental and this is put on by an association representing experimentals. I can't fault them for abiding by the rules, but the rules need to change to meet the number of aircraft that are being seen at such events. Finger pointing is not the answer. Maybe once everyone returns home and cooler heads prevail we can provide Vic with useful input that will add to the conversation.

mturnerb 07-25-2018 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanH (Post 1276036)
Not Sunday afternoon on 36L and 36R. Not even close.

We went from Fisk to approach end of 36L/R around 4PM Sunday - I agree with this assessment. We parked off the E-W road and mostly stood around waiting for aircraft to arrive. Listening to the tower frequency it sounded more like a lazy Sunday afternoon at my home field than the "busiest airport in the world". A few bizjets/King Air types calling in "3 mile final" and the occasional Fisk arrival. Given our experience watching the madhouse at Ripon and Fisk could not understand why so many aircraft were turned back at Fisk.

We then went around to approach end of 9 which was reasonably busy but not consistently so.

I admittedly am an Oshkosh rookie but I've watched dozens if not more YouTube videos of OSH arrivals and none of what I saw on Sunday resembled that. Happy to know that this issue has full attention of EAA with great folks like Vic Syracuse being involved.

Tankerpilot75 07-25-2018 08:10 PM

I just left the Young Eagles awards banquet and Jack Pelton mentioned briefly the difficulties weather presented this year for Friday, Saturday and Sunday arrivals. He said they were going to re-examine arrival procedures for next year?s AirVenture. The growth in GA traffic (both certified and experimental) has really put a strain on ATC and airport resources. I strongly suspect next year arrival procedures will be different.

philcam 07-25-2018 08:12 PM

The idea of mass arrivals going away isn’t going to happen.

AirVenture is all about money for the EAA. Upsetting large groups of members, donors and owners groups with sponsorships is NOT going to happen.

The idea of controllers telling everyone in line between Ripon and Fisk to turn left only compounds the problem. How about “blue Cessna over Ripon, rock your wings. Ok. Good rock, blue Cessna I’m sorry I can’t get you a runway, turn left head back to Ripon and I’ll get you next round”. Or better yet “blue Cessna turn left make left traffic around Rush Lake” and no more RR track arrivals until Rush lake is empty.

Carlos151 07-25-2018 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timberwolf (Post 1276042)
but if it wasn't for the certified realm, we wouldn't even exist.

I think we got it backwards and that?s part of the problem. If it wasn?t for EXPERIMENTAL aviation, we would not be where we?re at now. Just ask Wilbur and Orville.

I?m all about including everyone, HOWEVER, you gotta follow the rules and follow the protocols. If you don?t, there should be repercussions. Like someone else mentioned, let?s do a 10,000 RV mass gaggle fly in. How long do you think that would close OSH down for?

smash 07-25-2018 08:47 PM

The Mooney Caravan landed 61 airplanes in less than 10 minutes. They fly and land as elements of 3 with 15 second spacing between elements.

The Mooney Caravan procedures are professionally produced and are included as part of the letter of agreement with the FAA. They can be viewed here:https://sites.google.com/site/mooney...van-procedures

The go / no-go decision matrix for launching the formation can be viewed here:https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rFu...1_SUB-JsK/view

All pilots that participate in the formation are required to attend clinics and demonstrate formation proficiency. Training and preparation for flying into Oshkosh is a year round process. Last year regional clinics were held in Arizona, Virginia, Kansas, Texas and California. You can view the formation and training materials here: https://sites.google.com/site/mooneycaravan/training

By the time pilots arrive in Madison for staging they are knowledgeable and have practiced all procedures including aborts, diversion airports, emergencies and alternate runway landing procedures. They also brief and are familiar with the standard OSH Notam. All have participated in one or more mass formations before they fly to OSH and have flown formation with their element. Many have flown previously flown the Fisk arrival and now prefer to fly with the Caravan because it is more structured (safer).

Just because the Mooney pilots did not build their own airplane please do not disparage this group of aviators. They are as enthusiastic about all things aviation related as my friends in the homebuilt community are. They commit to training for flying into Oshkosh because they want to make sure they get in safely with as little impact on the runways and facilities as possible. The pilots look forward to flying to Wisconsin all year and Oshkosh is the pinnacle of their flying season. Oh- and more than a few Mooney pilots have been known to home build as well;)

thompsonbr87 07-25-2018 08:56 PM

Limit scheduling of mass arrivals to typically slower times? Sunday evening seems like it was a poor choice.

Carlos151 07-25-2018 09:00 PM

No disparaging going on here. All I?m saying is read the NOTAM, follow the NOTAM.

After stopping at Dodge County airport, 50+/- NM south of OSH here?s what I heard from some of the Cessna mass gaggle participants:

?Should I be at 90 knots or 135 knots. I don?t know, I was in the back and could not hear the brief.?

Seriously?!?!?

Here?s your ?experienced?, ?well briefed? pilots. Oh, I?ll just follow the guys in front. Never mind READING THE NOTAM FOR YOURSELF!!!

6 Gun 07-25-2018 09:59 PM

Sunday
 
Well cheated death one more time from Ripon to Fisk!Im going to say this in a nice way if you think you have a problem with your plane or your low on gas or have a sick passanger there are at lest 5 airports close by STOP and get your problem handled before coming to Ripon and having the controller clear the whole track for you its not fair to those who stopped and took care of there problems before they got there.On Sundaythe time I spent on the tracks was very scary to say the lest and most people said the hold around the lake was the same.Not sure what the answer is maybe we should try it one year without the controllers and see if its any worse.

Bob


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