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-   -   Input Needed (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=161348)

Av8torTom 06-13-2018 11:27 AM

Input Needed
 
Hello - I'm starting to think about the layout of my panel. Will be VFR, day/night. I'm thinking one 10" and one 7" Dynon, but not married to any manufacturer at this point. Input greatly appreciated. Also, where are most people placing their main electrical bus in the 9A?


Mike S 06-13-2018 11:43 AM

It would appear you are using a keyed ignition/start switch.

They are kinda bulky----so be sure you leave adequate room around the body of the switch.

Your breaker grid might need more room for vertical spacing, due to size/shape of the breaker body.

Xpnder?

Av8torTom 06-13-2018 11:47 AM

Thanks
 
Hey Mike thanks for the heads-up.

I was thinking of the Dynon transponder module. I believe it interfaces thru the EFIS?

Carl Froehlich 06-13-2018 11:50 AM

What I would do:
- Move the airspeed and altimeter steam gauges to above the radio stack, side by side, airspeed on left.
- Move the left 10? SkyView display further to the left.
- Move the radio stack to the left, just on the right side of the left display.
- Add the SKyView knob module under the left display, or under the intercom module (the best money you will spend on the panel)
- Replace the 7? right display with anther 10? SkyView display, just to the right of the radio stack. Normal use for the right display tends to be engine monitoring and the map ?Scratch Pad?. This is the map that I use to look out for weather, get weather reports, look for TFRs etc. It is also big enough to be the primary display for the pilot, and makes flying in the right seat easy.

This is about what I have in the RV-10 (second panel integration) and it works well. If I changed anything, I?d leave out the altimeter (but keep the airspeed). I find I never use it. I do use the round airspeed for take off and landing.

Carl

Carl Froehlich 06-13-2018 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Av8torTom (Post 1266625)
Hey Mike thanks for the heads-up.

I was thinking of the Dynon transponder module. I believe it interfaces thru the EFIS?

The Dynon SkyView XPDR is a no brainer. Good price, does TIS on the primary display, and configuring for ADS-B out compliance is simple.

The transponder integrates seamlessly with the SkyView.

Carl

Mike S 06-13-2018 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Av8torTom (Post 1266625)
Hey Mike thanks for the heads-up.

I was thinking of the Dynon transponder module. I believe it interfaces thru the EFIS?

Kinda figured that, just checking to be sure.

rv7charlie 06-13-2018 01:52 PM

If you're married to breakers (I'm not), wiring the hot 'buss' is a bigger project in a 2D array than a 1D array (line). And orders of magnitude more expensive than ATO fuses, but that's an individual choice.

sglynn 06-13-2018 02:12 PM

Panel
 
Hi, I just did my panel with Dynon HDX and D6 for backup EFIS and Garmin 430 for legal IFR.

If you are VFR only I would not bother with any backup steam gauges. The HDX is all you need. You really don't need a second screen.

You might check out audio panels by PS Engineering. They have have some cool features and are not too expensive.

Av8torTom 06-13-2018 04:14 PM

Thanks everyone
 
Thanks for all the input.

I'm still looking for advice for the lest place to locate the main electric bus

sglynn 06-13-2018 04:47 PM

VP-X
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Av8torTom (Post 1266686)
Thanks for all the input.

I'm still looking for advice for the lest place to locate the main electric bus

I would use VP-X. I did use the equivalent red box from Advanced Systems. These are power distribution and switching boxes that also provide circuit breaker functionality. I mounted it right behind the HDX screen on the subpanel. If necessary I can access it by removing the big screen.

William 06-13-2018 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Av8torTom (Post 1266686)
Thanks for all the input.

I'm still looking for advice for the lest place to locate the main electric bus

You probably already know this but in your diagram the circuit breakers are your main power bus. The circuit breakers get tied together with copper bar and then a hot wire is bolted somewhere on the copper bar. Hot wire being activated through the master switch.

Bill

Bugsy 06-13-2018 05:51 PM

Screen sizes
 
Don?t be afraid to put smaller screen size on pilots side. Gives you more options for backups etc. plus the map is what really takes up real estate on the s teen and that goes best on the second screen.

I have a single 7inch screen with PFD,map and engine instruments all sharing the same real estate. Ifr is no problem. The PFD doesn?t need to be big.

sahrens 06-13-2018 06:12 PM

By your post it looks like you are already using a software product to design your panel. I used UpNorth Aviation to draw my panel. Bill was easy to work with while designing my panel and he has a library of most of the items placed on panels. Why use him? (there are others that provide the same kind of service)

During the design process Bill would send me a full scale PDF of my panel. I would print it at an office supply store, then tape it to my panel. That way I could see how the placement of switches, EFIS, CBs etc actually looked from the pilot's seat. Could I reach them, were the switches in a logical sequence, can I really fit the EFIS where I want it. I would mark changes on the printed panel, send an email to Bill, wait for the update and repeat the process. It really helped me avoid some mistakes that would have been costly to fix. I really recommend that process.

Of course if your getting that through the software you are using, you are miles ahead of me. Good luck with the panel.

Av8torTom 06-13-2018 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William (Post 1266699)
You probably already know this but in your diagram the circuit breakers are your main power bus. The circuit breakers get tied together with copper bar and then a hot wire is bolted somewhere on the copper bar. Hot wire being activated through the master switch.

Bill

I?ve not seen that arrangement. All the wiring diagrams I?ve seen thus far show wires going from the bus to the breakers.

I?m thinking I should place the main bus and the avionics bus in the middle top of the sub panel.

Thoughts?

Carl Froehlich 06-13-2018 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Av8torTom (Post 1266710)
I?ve not seen that arrangement. All the wiring diagrams I?ve seen thus far show wires going from the bus to the breakers.

I?m thinking I should place the main bus and the avionics bus in the middle top of the sub panel.

Thoughts?

Not sure why you are tripping over this.

Once you have the panel layout for the avionics, any logical grouping of breakers is the path forward. Drill the holes and mount the breakers - done.

PM me if you want details on a two battery power distribution design.

Carl

Mike S 06-13-2018 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William (Post 1266699)
You probably already know this but in your diagram the circuit breakers are your main power bus. The circuit breakers get tied together with copper bar and then a hot wire is bolted somewhere on the copper bar. Hot wire being activated through the master switch.

Bill

Yep, what he said.

You can also use short pieces of copper bar to gang together like items, such as all avionics, all lights, etc.

I buy copper pipe couplings and cut off a ring a bit over 1/4" then cut it open and flatten out to make a buss bar for breaker hookup.

William 06-13-2018 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Av8torTom (Post 1266710)
I?ve not seen that arrangement. All the wiring diagrams I?ve seen thus far show wires going from the bus to the breakers.

I?m thinking I should place the main bus and the avionics bus in the middle top of the sub panel.

Thoughts?


A quick search brought this up. Hope this helps, a picture with worth.... http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...Copper+bus+bar

rv7charlie 06-13-2018 06:54 PM

Tom,

Here's a useful description of an electrical buss (bus; busbar, etc):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Busbar

If you're using breakers, the bus is the set of hot terminals on the breakers, strung together with wire or a metal bar (see previous posts), which is why I mentioned the complexity of wiring a 2D array (grid) in my earlier post.

I hate to sound like a tape loop, but have you read the Aeroelectric Connection book yet? If not, you might want to put design work in pause and go there, first.

Charlie

TJCF16 06-13-2018 07:50 PM

You might want to put the A/P head on top and put the radios down low. This is because the A/P head is shallow and will fit high in the middle with out cutting the support.

wjb 06-13-2018 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Av8torTom (Post 1266620)
Hello - I'm starting to think about the layout of my panel.....


Just FYI ... the Van's .dxf drawings of the panel show the blank WITHOUT the bend ... the actual panel is about 1 inch shorter with the bend at the bottom (guess how I know).

rzbill 06-14-2018 05:31 AM

I was reading this thread with the intention of saying the same thing as Bill did above.

There is a bent flange on the bottom. Plus you have to take the bend radius into account and a little space to get well into the flat part of the panel for switches, etc. CAD model is the unbent flat part.

In addition, there is a 3/4" angle aluminum riveted around the top and other edges. This can be intruded upon but (on a tip up) there is canopy structure that also occupies some of this panel area. Can't comment on slider.

Flying Canuck 06-14-2018 07:51 AM

Others have just commented on the bottom bend, you loose a lot of room with that. I have just enough room under my HDX (located similarly) for toggle switches and their labels. You need to have some clearance to your labels below that bottom ledge of the HDX as it does block the view.

One other detail is the location of your fwd fuselage ribs. You'll need to relocate the left one to fit the 10" display. Where the resulting flange sits behind the panel will create a bit of dead space that may impact your switch spacing and placement. There are also pre-drilled holes in the panel for the rib flanges - you probably want to hide the bottom one (the top one will come out with your display cut out) by planning a hole in that location for a switch or something.

I presume that you are using a tip up canopy - your photo log seems to indicate that. You have the canopy jettison handle to deal with - if you don't bring that through the top of the panel like the plans show, you'll still have a big pre-drilled hole to accomodate there.

The map box is a little tricky to place, you do have latitude with the actual location, but remember that the back of the box will go through your sub panel as well as a chunk of your canopy deck. Too far to the right and it could interfere with your fresh air inlet and plumbing. My map box doubles as the shelf for the Dynon transponder unit, so I placed it lower than you have it.

My panel layout is fairly similar to yours, I don't have any pictures handy, I'll have to get some and post them. Not perfect at all, but it came together well.

vlittle 06-14-2018 09:11 AM

I would recommend a separate IDENT pushbutton for the transponder. Saves key pressess during busy times. I second the motion to have two 10 inch screens.

Consider ditching the backup instruments in favour of a second ADAHRS and use the SkyView backup batteries.

V

Av8torTom 06-14-2018 09:16 AM

Awesome!
 
These are awesome comments - keep 'em coming!!!

n981ms 06-14-2018 09:31 AM

I would certainly ditch the backup gauges.

I just priced them at spruce for about $500 for the pair.

A garmin G5 is $1308 with the harness.

Half the panel space and a fully redundant EFIS. Awesome overkill for a VFR panel. But who knows you might want to IFR equip someday.

This an aesthetics thing and I do love symmetry in general. However, I am in the camp of having 2 screens in front of the pilot rather than a symmetrical panel. #1 set to EFIS/Engine. #2 for the Map/AP/remote mounted items. I love a big ole map where I can see it and fiddle with the screen as needed.

agirard7a 06-14-2018 09:34 AM

Panel
 
Tom, your flap switch should be easily operated from your index finger while your hand is on the throttle. You can get a paddle switch that mounts on a momentary toggle. Same goes for auto pilot switches should be close to throttle. You don?t need an audio panel with the Garmin Gtr200 Radio which I highly recommend.

Av8torTom 06-15-2018 07:20 AM

Thanks
 
Thanks everyone - lots of great info here!

Jpm757 06-15-2018 01:17 PM

I would ditch the glove box, panel space is always at a premium, down the road you may wish you had that space. Why not 2 x 10" displays? You can always find a place for your gloves and other stuff.

springer 06-15-2018 01:46 PM

Keep you back up steam A/S indicator. I lost my Dynon EFIS/EMS instruments at a nearby airport and returned home with just the back up A/S. No need for a back up altimeter.


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