VAF Forums

VAF Forums (https://vansairforce.net/community/index.php)
-   RV General Discussion/News (https://vansairforce.net/community/forumdisplay.php?f=2)
-   -   BFR in an RV that's not really transition training? (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=159110)

DonFromTX 05-10-2018 05:53 PM

This struck me as odd, not being able to give a BFR in your plane.
I recently sent for a copy of a LODA for someone I knew, and found NO REFERENCE whatever to a BFR requirement nor any prohibition against giving a BFR. Is this normal practice, or does it just strike each FSDO differently each day of the week?

[quote=TimO;1250391]I have a LODA (authorization from the FAA) to do transition training in the RV-14. Last year I went thru the process. I'm sure that there is at least a SMALL chance that some people would have different results than I did, but, in my case doing a Flight Review in the RV-14 not all all do-able.

As part of my authorization I cannot even give transition training unless the pilot ALREADY has a current "BFR".

BobTurner 05-10-2018 08:17 PM

[quote=DonFromTX;1259135]This struck me as odd, not being able to give a BFR in your plane.
I recently sent for a copy of a LODA for someone I knew, and found NO REFERENCE whatever to a BFR requirement nor any prohibition against giving a BFR. Is this normal practice, or does it just strike each FSDO differently each day of the week?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimO (Post 1250391)
I have a LODA (authorization from the FAA) to do transition training in the RV-14. Last year I went thru the process. I'm sure that there is at least a SMALL chance that some people would have different results than I did, but, in my case doing a Flight Review in the RV-14 not all all do-able.

As part of my authorization I cannot even give transition training unless the pilot ALREADY has a current "BFR".

The FAA?s position is quite clear: an EAB airplane may not be used for compensation. They will issue a waiver (LODA) specifically for transition training only because it cannot realistically be done in anything other than an RV. Every LODA I?ve seen says ?transition training only?. Now there is the question, ?If during transition training we satisfactorly accomplish all the elements of a Flight Review, may I (as a cfi) endorse the pilot?s logbook as Flight Review given?? My LODA says ?no?. This strikes me as unusually strict. But I guess if it was otherwise, people would cheat - e.g., ask for/offer transition training when all they really wanted was a Flight Review. Just to be clear, a LODA is needed for the EAB to be used for compensation. You may get and pay for a Flight Review in your EAB, the presumption being that you don?t rent the plane from yourself.

DonFromTX 05-10-2018 08:31 PM

Interesting. To make a discussion, the words "for transition training only" certainly does not infer to me that you could not use your plane for pleasure or sightseeing or personal travel - or giving a flight review. The one I received however had the statement that the plane can make "No demonstration flights are allowed". I am not even sure what a "demonstration flight" consists of.

[quote=BobTurner;1259165]
Quote:

Originally Posted by DonFromTX (Post 1259135)
This struck me as odd, not being able to give a BFR in your plane.
I recently sent for a copy of a LODA for someone I knew, and found NO REFERENCE whatever to a BFR requirement nor any prohibition against giving a BFR. Is this normal practice, or does it just strike each FSDO differently each day of the week?


The FAA?s position is quite clear: an EAB airplane may not be used for compensation. They will issue a waiver (LODA) specifically for transition training only because it cannot realistically be done in anything other than an RV. Every LODA I?ve seen says ?transition training only?. Now there is the question, ?If during transition training we satisfactorly accomplish all the elements of a Flight Review, may I (as a cfi) endorse the pilot?s logbook as Flight Review given?? My LODA says ?no?. This strikes me as unusually strict. But I guess if it was otherwise, people would cheat - e.g., ask for/offer transition training when all they really wanted was a Flight Review. Just to be clear, a LODA is needed for the EAB to be used for compensation. You may get and pay for a Flight Review in your EAB, the presumption being that you don?t rent the plane from yourself.


BobTurner 05-10-2018 08:46 PM

The waiver (LODA) is for using the airplane for compensation. You don?t need the waiver if no compensation is involved, like personal travel. No waiver is needed if you get a Flight Review for free. But a CFI cannot furnish his airplane ?for free? and charge for his services - the airplane is clearly tied to him being compensated.

flyinhood 05-11-2018 06:38 AM

Thank you to everyone in advance. I am new here and just bought my first RV last week.

I am an active CFI with no LODA (yet...maybe)

Can I offer flight training with me, and my plane, if no money changes hands?

ie: a young person spending time with me to suppliment their private, a few approaches with a friend to get current, etc.

Or...does anyone know if, because a Comm is required to have a CFI, that ALL training is considered "commercial" regardless of money changing hands?

Thx,

Hoody

Jesse 05-11-2018 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyinhood (Post 1259207)
Thank you to everyone in advance. I am new here and just bought my first RV last week.

I am an active CFI with no LODA (yet...maybe)

Can I offer flight training with me, and my plane, if no money changes hands?

ie: a young person spending time with me to suppliment their private, a few approaches with a friend to get current, etc.

Or...does anyone know if, because a Comm is required to have a CFI, that ALL training is considered "commercial" regardless of money changing hands?

Thx,

Hoody

As long as you pay your pro rata share of the expenses, you are not flying for hire, so you can do it.

Vern 05-11-2018 07:15 AM

Airshow performer use of EAB aircraft
 
I've always wondered at the regs that will not allow the needed training in EAB but allow some airshow pilots to make a living using their EAB aircraft.
Anyone got any ideas?

Auburntsts 05-11-2018 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonFromTX (Post 1259135)
The FAA’s position is quite clear: an EAB airplane may not be used for compensation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vern (Post 1259218)
I've always wondered at the regs that will not allow the needed training in EAB but allow some airshow pilots to make a living using their EAB aircraft.
Anyone got any ideas?

I get the primary training vs transition training and LODA stuff. However, I'm not sold on the total no compensation bit outside of the training issues.

Can someone point me to where it says you can't be compensated for performing other, non-training tasks with an E-AB aircraft?
I get 91.319 states:
(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate—
(1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued; or
(2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.

And my OPLIMS, issued under the older FAA order 8130.2G (current version is 2J IIRC) has the same verbiage as 91.319 (a) (2). I'm also prohibited by my OPLIMS from glider towing, banner towing, or intentional parachute jumping.

But what about skywriting or aerial photography? Why couldn't a pilot flying their own E-AB be compensated (ie paid) for those activities? There's no carriage of persons or property.

rvbuilder2002 05-11-2018 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auburntsts (Post 1259231)
I get the primary training vs transition training and LODA stuff. However, I'm not sold on the total no compensation bit outside of the training issues.

Can someone point me to where it says you can't be compensated for performing other, non-training tasks with an E-AB aircraft?
I get 91.319 states:
(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate?
(1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued; or
(2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.

And my OPLIMS, issued under the older FAA order 8130.2G (current version is 2J IIRC) has the same verbiage as 91.319 (a) (2). I'm also prohibited by my OPLIMS from glider towing, banner towing, or intentional parachute jumping.

But what about skywriting or aerial photography? Why couldn't a pilot flying their own E-AB be compensated (ie paid) for those activities? There's no carriage of persons or property.

When reading a document in the context of "legal" meaning, single specific words can mean a lot (even if the person reading it doesn't understand the relevance).

In that context, ask your self why does it say compensation and hire? Wouldn't just one suffice?

Apparently not.

So now you need to find out what the FAA means by those two terms.

Unfortunately, in this case, the writer (FAA legal dept) gets to define the terms, not the person reading them. The FAA has been very clear in the past regarding what their definition is.

Auburntsts 05-11-2018 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 (Post 1259248)
When reading a document in the context of "legal" meaning, single specific words can mean a lot (even if the person reading it doesn't understand the relevance).

In that context, ask your self why does it say compensation and hire? Wouldn't just one suffice?

Apparently not.

So now you need to find out what the FAA means by those two terms.

Unfortunately, in this case, the writer (FAA legal dept) gets to define the terms, not the person reading them. The FAA has been very clear in the past regarding what their definition is.

Umm, because they don't mean the same thing? In any event, the way the paragraph is worded to me implies that the compensation and hire prohibition applies to the carriage, and only the carriage, of persons or property. Otherwise if you wanted to prohibit all activities for compensation or hire why not just leave "persons" and "property" out altogether? But they didn't so they made the prohibited activities specific and not general.

I also have no plan to ask the FAA anything. I simply want to know is there a reference that applies the compensation prohibition beyond what's stated in 91.319 such as a reg or FAA General Counsel ruling and not for anyone to try an provide an interpretation of 91.319, legal or not.

NOTE: This if for my edification only -- I have absolutely no desire or need to fly for compensation in any aircraft, regardless of its certification.

DonFromTX 05-11-2018 11:43 AM

OK, I think I have it now. If you are getting some transition training from a LODA guy and need a BFR, you should probably give him a birthday present of say $100, then when asking about a BFR, remind him that you gave him a birthday present yesterday (regardless of when his birthday was). That would make it all legal in the eyes of the FAA since he was just giving you a birthday present as well..

skylor 05-11-2018 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auburntsts (Post 1259231)
I get the primary training vs transition training and LODA stuff. However, I'm not sold on the total no compensation bit outside of the training issues.

Can someone point me to where it says you can't be compensated for performing other, non-training tasks with an E-AB aircraft?
I get 91.319 states:
(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate?
(1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued; or
(2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.

And my OPLIMS, issued under the older FAA order 8130.2G (current version is 2J IIRC) has the same verbiage as 91.319 (a) (2). I'm also prohibited by my OPLIMS from glider towing, banner towing, or intentional parachute jumping.

But what about skywriting or aerial photography? Why couldn't a pilot flying their own E-AB be compensated (ie paid) for those activities? There's no carriage of persons or property.

If a person is charging for aerial photography or skywriting in an EAB, aren't they "being carried for hire"? I think this could be why the "or" is in 2).

Regarding EAB aircraft compensation for air-show performances: The FAA has made it clear that a commercial rated pilot may be compensated for air-show performances in an EAB aircraft (this may be part of the air-show waiver). However, they have also made it clear that air-show performers may not be compensated for giving VIP or press rides in an EAB aircraft.

Skylor

skylor 05-11-2018 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonFromTX (Post 1259305)
OK, I think I have it now. If you are getting some transition training from a LODA guy and need a BFR, you should probably give him a birthday present of say $100, then when asking about a BFR, remind him that you gave him a birthday present yesterday (regardless of when his birthday was). That would make it all legal in the eyes of the FAA since he was just giving you a birthday present as well..

Not really. At least in the eyes of other branches of government as well as government contractors, this type of behavior is considered both unethical and illegal. The example you gave is very similar to examples used in ethics training for govt. contractors. No, you can't give the birthday present to his wife or daughter, either...

Auburntsts 05-11-2018 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skylor (Post 1259316)
If a person is charging for aerial photography or skywriting in an EAB, aren't they "being carried for hire"? I think this could be why the "or" is in 2).

Skylor

IMO no. I take 91.319 (2) to mean carrying someone other than the pilot conducting the flight as in a 121 or 135 operation. But hay, my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it.

BobTurner 05-11-2018 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse (Post 1259213)
As long as you pay your pro rata share of the expenses, you are not flying for hire, so you can do it.

Jesse, this is a common but incorrect perception. You need to go to the for-hire FARs (like part 135), where it is more clear that you may share the expenses of a flight with passengers ONLY when the flying is incidental to the trip. For example, if you and your friends want to gamble, then you may share the costs of a trip to Las Vegas. But if your friends want to gamble but you only want to fly, and intend to hang around the FBO while they gamble, then this is NOT legal. Likewise for aerial sightseeing, or if receiving flight instruction, then the flight is not incidental, but rather the main reason for going. Cost sharing under these circumstances is not allowed. (This has nothing to do with EAB, the same rules apply to normally certified aircraft.)

Ironflight 05-11-2018 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vern (Post 1259218)
I've always wondered at the regs that will not allow the needed training in EAB but allow some airshow pilots to make a living using their EAB aircraft.
Anyone got any ideas?

I won?t speak for ALL cases, but in many cases, those ?experimental? aren?t E-AB - often times they are Exhibition, which carries different rules and ops Lims....

Northernliving 05-12-2018 05:40 AM

Generous people
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTurner (Post 1250355)
The rulings that come out of courts often surprise me. But in this case, my opinion is that the FAA lawyers would rip this arguement to shreds. The airplane is being used to generate compensation for its owner, the cfi. Now, if you separate the two - you have an owner, not the cfi, who will genuinely let you borrow his plane for free - then you can legally pay the cfi. Same as if you are the owner.
BTW, actual cost numbers from when I was doing transition training in my -10: gas, $50/hr; insurance (just extra cost for giving dual), $400 per person (or $80/hr if 5 hours were needed); wear and tear on brakes, tires, ....??. So you see that your suggested ?rate? doesn?t come close to covering costs.

I had just this. I used an RV6 for free, and an RV8 for free for my transition training. 2 hours in each. They were filled with fuel when I took them out, and I filled them when I returned them. I agreed to pay the CFI, but he ended up doing it for free anyway (well, I had to listen to all his flying stories, that were really cool anyway!).


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:24 AM.