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-   -   XP-IO-360 vertical draft install references? (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=15778)

JonJay 04-04-2007 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RudiGreyling
Hi Guys,

Wow I started this thread and haven?t been around in a while, it has grown significantly.

Here is where I am at, with a couple of pictures below?
1)I got the arm that points the other way
2)I used the vans VA-182-PC bracket instead of the standard one that comes with the standard carb FW FWD setup.

What I noticed so far:
- The metered hose supplied by SuperiorAir going from the Throttle Body(TB) to the FI spider will work, but runs close to the exhaust, I decided I will put some additional fire sleeving on it for the section close to the Exhaust, because I don?t know how good the protection of STD brown hose is.
- The supplied hose from the Fuel Pump to the TB inlet will not work, it just runs too close to the control cables for my liking, and might cause chaffing. I decided to have a hose made up, a little longer. I will have to figure out how to support it for the last run between the engine mount and the TB inlet.

I have not tried my airbox or cowl on yet, so I don?t know what the alignment would be. I did fit the heat insulator between the Sump and the TB, you can see it is a brownish colour, between 3 supplied gaskets.

This is my first engine install so if you see something odd, let me know!

Will keep you guys posted?If you figure out something I haven?t yet please post below.

Kind Regards
Rudi



Not sure if the cowling has more clearance on the 9 than on my 6, but I did have to modify the arm. See previous post. In regard to the high pressure fuel line, I ran mine straight out of the back and up through the right back side of the baffle to the distributor. It stayed well clear of the exhaust and there is not a lot going on on the right side as the oil cooler lines are on the left but either side would work. (back side that is). It looks like you are coming out of the back but going up the side. I tried that but thought it was too close to the exhaust for my comfort. Straight out worked well. My airbox lined up well without any spacer. In fact, the spacer made the clearances worse when I tried it.
Modification to the VA-182 was simply bending the "tab" down where the mixture cable runs through to get a little shallower angle for the cable. Probably not necessary, but I felt better about it and it was very easy to manipulate.
Engine started last Saturday. Ran like a top. Inspection next week, with first flight hopefully on the 14th. Yahoo.

Captain Avgas 04-04-2007 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonJay
Not sure if the cowling has more clearance on the 9 than on my 6, but I did have to modify the arm.

JonJay, I think you mentioned that precision has an alternative mix arm that does not protrude out so far. Do you know the part number for that arm.

Also, it seems to me that you do not have any spacer either above or below the servo (is that right)...and yet your cowl inlet aligns with the FAB. The Precision servo is supposed to be 1" shorter than the carburettor it replaces so I don't know what to make of this. Others have definitely said that a spacer is required. Can you comment on this.

Regards Bob

JonJay 04-05-2007 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Avgas
JonJay, I think you mentioned that precision has an alternative mix arm that does not protrude out so far. Do you know the part number for that arm.

Also, it seems to me that you do not have any spacer either above or below the servo (is that right)...and yet your cowl inlet aligns with the FAB. The Precision servo is supposed to be 1" shorter than the carburettor it replaces so I don't know what to make of this. Others have definitely said that a spacer is required. Can you comment on this.

Regards Bob

I called Precision and they helped with the part number, but I did not go that way. They don't sell direct and retail on the arm was $100 or so. I know a good tig welder who took care of the modification for me on the existing arm for $10 or so, I think I gave him $20 for the effort.
I am confused on the spacer comment too. I did not use a spacer and my airbox lined up about 3/16"-1/4" high, which from reading the instructions, is pretty common. You simply bend down the plate where it narrows and modify the airbox slightly by slitting it at the bend point and glassing over the slit. All of this is in the instructions. If I had used the 1" spacer, I would have been 3/4" out of line on the low side. Perhaps there are differences in 6, 8, 9 snoot locations? I can not comment on the difference in height of a servo or a standard carb or an ellison or?? I dont believe in the theory that you need the spacer above the servo to provide for "proper" airflow. My engine came prebuilt by Aerosport Power without it and they know what they are doing.
If you end up needing a spacer, I have a very nice 1" aluminum spacer sitting around. At any rate, you dont need to worry about it until after you get your cowling fitted. Then you will know exactly what to do with your airbox. The cowling will dictate what happens next.

RudiGreyling 04-16-2007 11:44 PM

HI Guys,

I can give some more feedback...I wanted to use most of the standard goodies from VAN's, so most of it is from the Standard F/W kit for the 0-360 also no fancy F/W penetration saddles etc etc.

1) I drilled the engine control cables in the firewall and the inside cover at your feet pretty close to the Vans RV7 0-360 Carb locations. I just had to watch out for the reinforcement plate for the FI Fuel supply. The only difference is that I swapped the use of the 'Carb Heat' hole for the Mixture cable and used the Micture Hole for the Alternate Air cable. Remember I got both the longer 50" cables for Throttle and Mix instead of the standard lenghts. They worked out fine as you will see later. PS Ignore the platenuts for the small Electric Pump they were installed before I knew I was going FI.


2) The Throttle lined up good, but the Mixture Cable did not see picture below, I got the VA-182-PC KIT THRTLE/MIX BRCKT IO 320/360 Vert. Induction instead of the standard Carb Bracket


3) By bending the bracket a little the alignment problem is solved.



4) Here you can see how I routed my hoses and cables..well so far so good ;-). I had to get a new fuel supply cable made since the Van's one did not fit, neither did the XP one. The High Pressure Metered Fuel hose to the FI spider is the XP supplied one. I juse added some additional firesleeve on it, cause it will sit close to the Exhaust.


Everyting is on temporary, I need to fit the cowl to see how it works out, stay tuned...

Kind Regards,
Rudi
PS: This is my first engine install, so use this info at your own risk, also if you see something wrong, email me...

Captain Avgas 04-17-2007 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RudiGreyling
HI Guys,

Everyting is on temporary, I need to fit the cowl to see how it works out, stay tuned...

Kind Regards,
Rudi

We're standing by Rudi. It will be interesting to see whether your mix arm hits the cowl. Please advise.

JonJay 04-17-2007 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Avgas
We're standing by Rudi. It will be interesting to see whether your mix arm hits the cowl. Please advise.

It hit on mine, but it was an easy fix to cut down that lever and have it tig welded or buy the ready made one from Precision for $100. Everything else you described is exactly what I did in regard to cable penetrations, hoses, and bending of the standard bracket. Your skinning that cat.
I am very glad I went with vertical induction and kept the classic scoop on my 6.
Four hours flying and it all works fine.

Captain Avgas 04-17-2007 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonJay
It hit on mine, but it was an easy fix to cut down that lever and have it tig welded or buy the ready made one from Precision for $100. .

JonJay, when I look at Rudi's photo shot from directly under the engine it shows that there is VERY little clearance between the throttle body and the mix cable "extender rod" with the standard mix lever installed. You have modified your mix lever arm to bring it in closer to the throttle body so I'm surprised that your mix cable extender rod does not hit the throttle body. How much clearance do you have.

RudiGreyling 04-18-2007 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Avgas
JonJay, when I look at Rudi's photo shot from directly under the engine it shows that there is VERY little clearance between the throttle body and the mix cable "extender rod" with the standard mix lever installed. You have modified your mix lever arm to bring it in closer to the throttle body so I'm surprised that your mix cable extender rod does not hit the throttle body. How much clearance do you have.

Hi Captain Afgas,

Ditto there is very little clearance maybe 1/4" between the TB and Mix Cable, with the bracket I got. It the arm need to change then I will have to change my bracket as well...if the arm comes closer to the TB then the Bracket holding the Mix cable have to go out further to compensate.

Anycase don't hold your breath for the Cowl, there are lot and lots of stuff to do before I get there, maybe a month or so.

Regards
Rudi

RudiGreyling 07-26-2007 12:53 AM

Hi Guys,

So OK it took a little more than one month to post an update...but here it is.

I got some cowl interfence, exactly like the guys like JonJay experienced. I am working with Superior to see how and if we can resolve, but being Oshkhosh time things are a bit slow as can be expected.

I'll keep you guys in the loop, so you can learn:

I got some interference and thought I could solve it by Re-clocking the arm a bit...
1) Photo 1 shows how I reclocked the arm 1 notch hoping to get more clearance, you can see my Green Sharpie Marking references, note also the shallow angle of the mix cable in the background at full open.


2) Photo 2 shows the arm and cable shallow angle, I am concerned about the cable jamming in the full open position, with that shallow angle.


3) Photo 3 shows the arm and how close it gets to the bottom cowl when the mixture is fully closed.


4) Photo 4 is taken through the air filter intake in the cowl, it shows there are less than 1/16" clearance with the arm re-clocked.


This current set-up will definitely hit the cowl when the engine is operational and I am still concerned about a cable jam, going from full open to close again.

As I said I am working with XP to see how we resolve, but Oshkosh is taking it's toll.

I don't want to go the cut and tig weld route at this stage...

Regards
Rudi

tonyjohnson 01-27-2008 05:29 PM

How did it work out Rudi?
 
Rudi,

How did you resolve the issue you posted last? Those of us with vertical intake I-O360 precision FI systems would like to know how it worked out for you.

Does anyone else have any updated information on this topic?

Thanks

JonJay 01-28-2008 09:12 AM

Modified Arm works fine
 
The arm has to be modified as shown previously in the thread. AFP has an arm they will sell you for $100 that looks like it would work, but I found it easier to modify mine and have it TIG welded. I have about 3/4" of clearance.
85 hours no issues.
Curious though, whey would those with Horizontal injection care as this issue does not affect them, only Vertical injection?

tonyjohnson 02-23-2008 03:44 PM

I meant vertical
 
JonJay, in my last post I meant to say vertical, but typed in horizontal.

It seems to be a consensus that if you use the precision fuel injection on a vertical draft 360 engine, you will have to modify the mixture arm or buy the straight one from precision, in order to avoid the arm hitting the side of the cowling. :(

Jekyll 02-23-2008 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyjohnson (Post 201143)
It seems to be a consensus that if you use the precision fuel injection on a vertical draft 360 engine, you will have to modify the mixture arm or buy the straight one from precision, in order to avoid the arm hitting the side of the cowling. :(

No consensus here. Mine has plenty of clearance in the normal, arm down, configuration. I moved my FAB to the right 1/2 inch by making a new mount plate and I did use the Van's cut out. The move was to get enough clearance between the FAB body and cowling. Post shift, the arm doesn't extend past the FAB in it's normal position.

Mine came with a straight arm. I guess those intended for an arm-up configuration come with a joggled arm by the looks in Rudi's pictures. Needed to clear the high points it rotates by?

Jekyll
7A, TMX-IO-360 (B1B) Precision FI

Edit: Sorry Tony, you did say straight arm, maybe there is a consensus.

C-GRVT 03-31-2008 01:56 PM

a bit more info for the mix
 
I have been scratching my head over this install (Precision Silver Hawk install on a vertical induction 360 RV-6A) from the point of view of figuring our what to order from Van's as firewall forward, and what to specify to the engine builder re. the servo arms (straight, offset, length, reverse rotation or not). In speaking to the engine builder, to Van's, and to Precision, I can add the following information to the discussion. Being only at the ordering stage, I can't say what works.
However, for what it is worth:
Precision cannot say what will work and what will not - they say they have no access to an RV, and have not tried to design a kit specifically for any model or configuration. (Seems a real loss of an opportunity for them, but their call of course.)
Precision does say that they think most RV builders order a reverse rotation servo arm, and that four levers (builder's choice) are available, 1.625? and 2?, offset and straight. Precision could not suggest which one was likely to be the best fit for an RV, but did offer to exchange what I ordered if I decided it was the wrong one.
Van's say in response to the question of what modifications to the firewall forward kit are required for a vertical induction 360 fuel injection, that they don't know, they have never done a vertical fuel injection engine. They do however supply a different cable bracket that might be useful, and a VA-131-Q kit to modify the FAB to create a clearance where one might be needed, depending on what mixture bracket one picks. They can offer no advice on cable lengths.
The engine builder says that most RV builders specify a reverse rotation mixture control on the servo, and that no spacer is required if one uses that.
An RV builder I discussed this with had done a successful install with the normal rotation servo, using the VA-131-Q cut out and remaking the top mount plate, and no spacer, and suggests this is not difficult and the way to go.
So, there is where it sits for the moment. Clearly there are different ways to approach this, and it can be done. The various posts to this list underline what an incredible resource this list is (or more precisely, this list and the members who have gone before and are prepared to share their experiences, particularly with things like this.
Bill Brooks
Ottawa, Canada
RV-6A in progress

Jekyll 04-01-2008 10:16 AM

Bill:

The mixture cable bracket is the standard carb bracket. It fits the vertical set up with no modification.

Also I failed to mention I needed a longer mixture cable over the standard carb set up. I needed to order a 50.5. A 49 inch cable would have been better but Vans changed the selections available. Spruce will make one any lenght you desire but the price is 4 times as much for a special order.

Jekyll

lancef53 01-15-2009 05:45 AM

Any more updates to this thread--I am in the process now, with a standard bendix servo.

bubba 04-07-2012 07:12 AM

pictures
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Capflyer (Post 110339)
My TMX-I/O360 has the Silverhawk and to cure the problem of the arm hitting the FAB I made a 1" spacer using a commercial grade cutting board that is chemical & heat resistant. It goes between the bottom of the throttle body and the FAB and will give the clearance needed for the mixture arm. Simple and took only an hour to make.

I'll post some pics over the weekend if anyone is interested.

I am new @ this Webb site and I am having the same problem, Can you send pictures to airtravelers@msn.com or let me know where I can view the pictures.

Thank you
Bubba

Robertc 10-15-2016 07:46 PM

This is an old thread, but I think I need the spacer shown in the photos of RudyGrayling's post #39. Does any one know if this is a composite spacer & is it commercially available? I've been having some heat issues with an AFP injection system on my RV-7. A composite spacer that's known to hold up in service would probably help.
Bob


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