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-   -   switch use on the stick (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=156709)

Champ 09-23-2018 07:58 PM

I have Infinity grips front & back with switches as shown on the cockpit placards below.



Also have an enable/disable switch on the side console to kill the back stick. I ended up completely disconnecting the flap switch from the rear stick so no one could "accidentally" drop the flaps when the rear stick was enabled. Probably the only really useful switch in the back is the PTT in case the pilot becomes incapacitated and possibly the trim if the rear seater is flying & controlling the throttle. The grip looks cool though.

I like the boost pump on the stick especially on approach as I don't have to take my hand off the stick or throttle. Same with the flap switch on roll out and approach. With the flap switch so close to the trim though you have to be careful not to hit the flap switch down when trimming nose up by mistake or brain fart. Doing this gets your attention pretty quick though - ask me how I know.

I've never used the comm repeat yet - a frequency flip/flop or some other future function would be more useful here.

chris mitchell 09-24-2018 02:29 AM

Do you really need extra controls on the stick top??
 
Just to be a little contrary..... when I wanted to put extra controls on my Infinity stick top, my advisors - all ex-Air Force pilots fell around laughing and shouted ?wannabe...? at me.
Their attitude was that HOTAS was for time critical functions. Important on a bombing run, maybe not for a burger run.

So - starter? Very bad idea. With a n enable/kill switch - complexity, wiring, and anyway why??
Flaps? Bad idea. Inadvertent activation - one of my advisors had found himself inadvertently deploying flaps mid-spin.
AP disconnect, radio flip flop, fuel pump? Well ok but again, it?s wiring and complexity. Smoke well just about, given the moments you might want it on.
So now, I have only trim and PTT. Everything else is on the left, flaps and fuel pump just ahead of the throttle, radio and transponder also on the left so I never need to take my right hand off the stick.
I know we all wanted to fly F-16s -15-s etc etc, and some of us do or did. So I?m curious to know - how many former Air Force or navy pilots here have extra stick top functions and feel that they are critical or even necessary for easy and safe operation?
Just my thoughts.

Chris

rv8ch 09-24-2018 08:09 AM

Roll trim
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nihon_Ni (Post 1290652)
...
China hat: Pitch trim (U/D), Audio Playback (L) and Ident (R)
...

... I'm thinking about adding the ident switch to the China Hat. I wasn't previously intending to use it, but I'll have a remote transponder, so that might be a good function. Otherwise the China Hat (R) will be unused.

ATC is going to love the next guy to fly your 8 when he wants a bit of right roll trim :D

DanH 09-24-2018 09:54 AM

I fail to understand concerns about a start button on the grip. Yes, it needs to be wired through a separate start arming switch. It is trivial to wire the arming circuit so it flashes a big red LED on the panel; only blind pilots would fly around with the system armed. I'm not worried about bystanders arming the system, because first they would have to turn on the master switch, then find the arm switch. It's hidden, which is also a minor theft deterrent.

Obvious benefit is that I always start with the stick full back.

RV7A Flyer 09-24-2018 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanH (Post 1290690)
I fail to understand concerns about a start button on the grip. Yes, it needs to be wired through a separate start arming switch. It is trivial to wire the arming circuit so it flashes a big red LED on the panel; only blind pilots would fly around with the system armed. I'm not worried about bystanders arming the system, because first they would have to turn on the master switch, then find the arm switch. It's hidden, which is also a minor theft deterrent.

Never underestimate the mind's ability to completely ignore warning lights, bells, horns, etc.

As an example, Piper put the gear up warning horn and light on some models of Arrows (and perhaps others, not sure)...and still people manage to land them gear up.

You start the plane ONCE per flight (in theory)...why complicate things and introduce needless risk?

RV7A Flyer 09-24-2018 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nihon_Ni (Post 1290652)
China hat: Pitch trim (U/D), Audio Playback (L) and Ident (R)
...

This sounds like a horrible idea.

DanH 09-24-2018 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RV7A Flyer (Post 1290700)
Never underestimate the mind's ability to completely ignore warning lights, bells, horns, etc.

As an example, Piper put the gear up warning horn and light on some models of Arrows (and perhaps others, not sure)...and still people manage to land them gear up.

You start the plane ONCE per flight (in theory)...why complicate things and introduce needless risk?

Poor example. I was a Piper salesman way back when. It's a miserable system from a human factors standpoint.

The big red light is "Gear Unsafe". It illuminates when the gear is in transit during normal operations. Put another way, the system teaches the pilot to ignore the light, as it lights with every cycle of the gear, up or down.

Meanwhile, the real warning light is down by the throttle. It is amber, and is intended to remind the pilot that he locked out the automatic gear extension system. Again, we have a "teach to ignore", as a pilot flies with the light flashing for extended periods during a checkout, or while doing practice airwork. Can't do a gear up stall or emergency glide any other way, including the classic training power chop on downwind. You know what happens next.

Contrast with a start arm light. The system is only activated on the ground. There is no reason for it to be armed after start. You have an opportunity to catch it at the runup pad, in a visual scan or on a checklist. Last, there is no critical failure. Worst case is a ruined ring gear. Where is the risk?

In return, all starts are stick back...fuel injected 390 in a tailwheel 8. Plenty of pilots do a crappy hot start two-handed, throttle WOT, mixture in ICO, with the stick sorta held between their knees.

StressedOut 09-24-2018 02:01 PM

Dan, can you elaborate on the importance of holding the still full back? I don't have much experience in a tail wheel aircraft aside from my spin training in a Decathlon. I don't remember that being part of the start sequence. The majority of my time was in 172's and Warriors with a smattering of Mooney and Cirrus.

Is this something specific for a tail dragger?

RV7A Flyer 09-24-2018 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanH (Post 1290754)
Last, there is no critical failure. Worst case is a ruined ring gear. Where is the risk?

In return, all starts are stick back...fuel injected 390 in a tailwheel 8. Plenty of pilots do a crappy hot start two-handed, throttle WOT, mixture in ICO, with the stick sorta held between their knees.

It may not be a critical risk, assuming the whizzing away starter being driven by the engine doesn't cause some sort of electrical problem, but I try to avoid destroying parts of my engine whenever I can, and that includes system design that prevents the hazard wherever possible.

Anybody can do what they want, and far from me to argue about it with them. I just think there's a better way. I also have an injected engine, and I have zero problems with hot starts *without* going WOT. It's a -7A, though, so, you know... :)

Just my .02.

Mel 09-24-2018 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StressedOut (Post 1290766)
Dan, can you elaborate on the importance of holding the still full back? I don't have much experience in a tail wheel aircraft aside from my spin training in a Decathlon. I don't remember that being part of the start sequence. The majority of my time was in 172's and Warriors with a smattering of Mooney and Cirrus.
Is this something specific for a tail dragger?

I'm not Dan, but I'll answer that. There is always a chance that the engine could start at full throttle. It could be a broken throttle cable, a flooded engine, etc. Regardless of the reason, if the stick is not held full back, you could very easily experience a prop strike. In my opinion, when on the ground, in a taildragger, the stick should be held back at all times unless you are doing a control check or ready to raise the tail on take-off.

rbibb 09-24-2018 03:05 PM

On my -4 I currrently have elevator trim, flaps, freq flip flop, radio channel memory select, PTT, and Xpndr Ident on my stick. I have the Ray Allen grip so fewer options.

I'm making some changes and here is how it will be set up soon:

PTT
Elevator Trim
Flaps (this is spring loaded toggle switch that must be held in postion to deploy or retract flaps - no set positions).
Autopilot Disconnect (instead of IDENT).
Autopilot Control Wheel Steering
Freq Flip Flop.

I'd elminate any radio controls but my comm radio is in a console between legs so I like to be able to change freqs without having to look down. In planned next upgrade Comm radio moves back to main panel and I wil elminate this from the stick.

Since I must take positive action and hold it in place to move the flaps I find having it on the stick to be convenient. Chance of accidental deployment is nil.

Now screwing up my radio frequencies does happen but if I eliminate the memory channel button the worst result is flip flopping from right frequency to wrong one which is easily remedied.

If I had aileron trilm I'd have it on the stick....

Ident on the stick is a waste.

Starter on the stick seems like it may make sense but I've hit all the buttons at the wrong time once or twice so I think I'll not go there.

I think a starter button located where I could with a bit of contortion engage it while keeping a hand on the throttle would be nice. Other hand holding full aft stick, etc to avoid Mel's nightmare scenario...

rmartingt 09-24-2018 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mitchell (Post 1290616)
AP disconnect, radio flip flop, fuel pump? Well ok but again, it?s wiring and complexity. Smoke well just about, given the moments you might want it on.

It's worth noting that AP disconnect on the stick/wheel is basically a requirement for certified aircraft.

Part 23 (yes, I know Part 23 has been redone... )
Quote:

?23.1329

Automatic pilot system.

If an automatic pilot system is installed, it must meet the following:
(a) Each system must be designed so that the automatic pilot can--
(1) Be quickly and positively disengaged by the pilots to prevent it from interfering with their control of the airplane; or
(2) Be sufficiently overpowered by one pilot to let him control the airplane.
(b) If the provisions of paragraph (a)(1) of this section are applied, the quick release (emergency) control must be located on the control wheel [(both control wheels if the airplane can be operated from either pilot seat)] on the side opposite the throttles, or on the stick control, (both stick controls, if the airplane can be operated from either pilot seat) such that it can be operated without moving the hand from its normal position on the control.
Part 25:
Quote:

?25.1329 Flight guidance system.

(a) Quick disengagement controls for the autopilot and autothrust functions must be provided for each pilot. The autopilot quick disengagement controls must be located on both control wheels (or equivalent). The autothrust quick disengagement controls must be located on the thrust control levers. Quick disengagement controls must be readily accessible to each pilot while operating the control wheel (or equivalent) and thrust control levers.


Yes, I know that our homebuilts aren't bound by either set of regulations. Yes, we can meet the "be sufficiently overpowered" clause. But IMO, there's a pretty good reason these regs are there.

kbalch 09-24-2018 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mel (Post 1290774)
In my opinion, when on the ground, in a taildragger, the stick should be held back at all times unless you are doing a control check or ready to raise the tail on take-off.

Agreed. One more exception to add: when needing to unlock the tailwheel (by moving the stick full-forward) on a P-51 or similarly equipped T-6 in order to go full-swivel for a tight turn.

Mel 09-24-2018 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbalch (Post 1290810)
Agreed. One more exception to add: when needing to unlock the tailwheel (by moving the stick full-forward) on a P-51 or similarly equipped T-6 in order to go full-swivel for a tight turn.

Of course there are exceptions for everything.

jliltd 09-24-2018 05:12 PM

Did somebody say opinions? Well alrighty then.

Aside from the "old standards" of PTT and trim:

My favorite: Flaps

Second Favorite: Starter; Love it on the stick with a panel-mounted "arm" switch. It is only armed when mags are turned on and is unarmed after engine start.

Third favorite: CW Steering

Final favorite: Fuel Pump with annunciation light on panel

And my "never": Ident. No go reason for it and I have flown an RV-8 with it on the stick and that just caused problems all the time.

Jim

Nihon_Ni 09-24-2018 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rv8ch (Post 1290667)
ATC is going to love the next guy to fly your 8 when he wants a bit of right roll trim :D

Truthfully, I haven't thought about what the next owner might like or dislike. lt would be simple enough to deactivate those two functions if a new owner didn't like them, or re-purpose them for something else.

Until I started reading this thread I hadn't planned to use the China Hat L-R functions. I'm still thinking about it, and may change my mind again.

Carl Froehlich 09-24-2018 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nihon_Ni (Post 1290837)
SNIP

Until I started reading this thread I hadn't planned to use the China Hat L-R functions. I'm still thinking about it, and may change my mind again.

Add the aileron trim kit. It is easy and worth the money.

Carl

bkervaski 09-24-2018 06:28 PM

Quote:

Add the aileron trim kit. It is easy and worth the money.
Agreed++

Very easy to install.

N941WR 09-26-2018 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mel (Post 1290774)
Quote:

Originally Posted by StressedOut (Post 1290766)
Dan, can you elaborate on the importance of holding the still full back? I don't have much experience in a tail wheel aircraft aside from my spin training in a Decathlon. I don't remember that being part of the start sequence. The majority of my time was in 172's and Warriors with a smattering of Mooney and Cirrus.

Is this something specific for a tail dragger?

I'm not Dan, but I'll answer that. There is always a chance that the engine could start at full throttle. It could be a broken throttle cable, a flooded engine, etc. Regardless of the reason, if the stick is not held full back, you could very easily experience a prop strike. In my opinion, when on the ground, in a taildragger, the stick should be held back at all times unless you are doing a control check or ready to raise the tail on take-off.

I'm not Dan either but I did shake his hand once.

I will add that I learned in Cessnas and was taught to hold the yoke back ALL the time, unless taxiing downwind. It is just good form.

N941WR 09-26-2018 02:53 PM

Interesting thread.

What about onbthe simple side of things.

I have teak grips with the PTT on the top.

If I were to add an autopilot button, should it go in the trigger position, panel, should the PTT be moved and the AP button installed on top?

Suggestions please.

RV7A Flyer 09-26-2018 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N941WR (Post 1291323)

If I were to add an autopilot button, should it go in the trigger position, ... PTT be moved and the AP button installed on top?

Suggestions please.

PTT on trigger, AP on top.

N941WR 09-26-2018 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RV7A Flyer (Post 1291372)
PTT on trigger, AP on top.

Why?

The right stick will retain the PTT on top.

RV7A Flyer 09-27-2018 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N941WR (Post 1291382)
Why?

The right stick will retain the PTT on top.

Because I find it easier to just "squeeze" my finger to activate PTT than to press my thumb down. It's just more comfortable for me.

I never fly from the right, so that's not really of much concern for me :) (plus, there's only one button on that stick anyway, whereas the pilot's stick has quite a few functions...trim, A/P, smoke, PTT).

supik 10-11-2018 01:49 PM

TOGA GMC vs GTN
 
Michael,

did you find out whether it's enough to wire the TOGA input into the GMC507 or does the GTN need a dedicated input?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoilermakerRV (Post 1287553)
You are correct in that it goes to the GMC 507. And that is what I intended by G3X. I think of the whole system as a the "G3X". I still think the GTN needs it's own TO/GA input. Happy to be corrected.

Thanks,

Ed_Wischmeyer 10-11-2018 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by supik (Post 1294754)
did you find out whether it's enough to wire the TOGA input into the GMC507 or does the GTN need a dedicated input?

They both need TOGA:
On the G3X, TOGA takes the autopilot to pre-programmed pitch up and wings level;
On the GTN, TOGA activates the missed approach procedure for guidance;
The pilot still has to reconnect the autopilot to the GTN on a missed approach.

On my RV-9A with a fixed pitch prop, if I'm slowed to final approach speed and go to full throttle and TOGA, the plane gets as slow as the autopilot programming will let it. This means that an autopilot go around at minimums would be interesting. However, following the lead of a jet test pilot friends, I try to avoid flying where ceilings are less than a thousand, just in case the engine poops out, so that means that I don't ever plan to fly an approach to minimums in IMC. The key phrase here is that I don't *plan* to, but I still need to know how to do it reliably. I go through the TOGA drill on every approach, and I always engage the autopilot on every takeoff, just for practice, even on a VFR flight. If I had a constant speed on the RV-9A and better acceleration, TOGA acceleration might not be as much of a factor.

supik 10-15-2018 02:00 AM

TOGA GMC507
 
As the GMC507 is connected via CAN Bus to G3X, no dedicated/discrete input is needed for the G3X. The question is if the G3X can trigger the Missed Approach Proc on the GTN remotely..

supik 10-26-2018 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by supik (Post 1295501)
As the GMC507 is connected via CAN Bus to G3X, no dedicated/discrete input is needed for the G3X. The question is if the G3X can trigger the Missed Approach Proc on the GTN remotely..

Here is the answer to my question.. :D
Let me know if the image is not displayed.


supik 10-26-2018 04:31 PM

..can't find the TO/GA discrete input wiring in the GTN install manual dated dec2012, rev.4 :confused:


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