refueling my RV12
 

I'm tired of hauling 5 gallon cans of gas. My airport car is a 2001 Chrysler van has a 20 gallon gas tank and internal pump that can put out 5 GPM. Is it a pipe dream to try to tap into it?

Not a pipe dream, but a slightly better option is to build a “portable unit”.

I got a 30 gallon fuel tank out of a junk yard. It had the pump internal to the tank (I think it was a Chevy tahoe). I simply put handles on it and made up a power wire to my 12V on the truck, added a static wire and booyah , a fuel transfer tank for not much money.

You could technically put it in the trunk of a car, but you might want to check your local laws. Or go roque :cool:

I'm using an old race car fuel cell bladder (ATL). Find some local race car shops and they will probably have some old ones laying around. You want the black hard plastic bladder. Northern tool sells a small 12v transfer pump with all the hoses and a gas station style filler nozzle for $100.00. It says diesel only but they have to say that. I use a large funnel with an automotive paint strainer into the tank.

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/to...2558_200612558

I use a light weight industrial push kart with the fuel cell on the top and the 12v battery and a charger on the bottom.

The top shelf on the push kart lines up well with the tail gate on the pickup so I can side the cell into the truck bed with minimal strain

Next time I go to the AP I'll take a picture.

I'd use a little caution here... "diesel only" means just that. There are similar style pumps made specifically for gasoline.

Just saying...

Down right scary what you folks are doing to save a few cents on fuel.
Just saying...
I started out hauling fuel around until certified 91 UL melted a piston. It's just not worth the risk to the engine or the plane in case of a fire.

Wait, what melted a piston?

The only fuel on field is leaded avgas, so I keep three 5 gallon plastic gas cans in the back of the truck. It's less than a mile from the gas station selling ethanol-free premium to the hangar. I've briefly considered a larger container, but I don't like the thought of hauling gasoline around any more than necessary. The guy I bought the plane from had a 15 gallon fuel can with a 2-wheel cart and pump... definitely not worth the hassle of getting something like that in and out of my pickup bed.

I've kept it on the down low hoping Rotax would come through with the warranty but that's not looking too promising.

It was a warm day, EFIS data says the engine was within it's operating parameters - Phillips 66 was nice enough to pull a fuel sample and confirm I had good fuel.

New engine - 4 hour conversation with head of Quality Control for AvGas from Phillips... Bottom line - it just not worth the risk for me.
You guys do what feels right for you.

A few cents?
 

Let’s see, at 36 gallons a week for 100LL @$4.05/gallon, that’s $145 a week. The same amount in 91UL @$2.80/gallon is $100.80. So, assuming 46 weeks a year, that’s roughly $2,000 a year. Plus, I have to deal with leaded fuel, a dirtier engine, more frequent oil changes and so on... it’s a lot more than a few cents.

Now, if you’re engine isn’t rated to run on 91AKI, then you have a separate issue. But for those who can on run on MOGAS, why not?

Stopping at the gas station on the way to airport and filling a portable tank is pretty easy. And then just running the hose over to the airplane and transfering it is pretty easy too. IMO, it’s about the same effort as moving the plane over to the pumps and fueling it there; even a little less hassle.

As for the fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) about diesel versus gasoline fuel tanks - there’s physically nothing different about the tank. Just be sure to use a static line as the diesel one’s don’t have one.

Before there is a mass migration to the "buy it at the airport philosophy" you should look at the fuels Rotax recommends, none of which are available at most local airports. Our field (PGN) is full of Rotax planes fueled by premium pump gas. Their hangers are full of five gallon lawn mower plastic cans. Hopefully, the fire marshal is sympathetic. I called the local Rotax dealer and high test pump gas is their number one recommended fuel, although I thought it would be 90 no ethanol.

If you are going to transport gasoline in any manner I suggest the best way, short of a semi truck, is a racing fuel cell designed to withstand impact collisions in excess of 200 mph. Additionally, the fuel cell comes with AN liquid transfer fitting in place, so all the normal aviation plumbing hardware screws into place.

I'm not making any recommendations as to how you should get your fuel to a location that does not have it available, I'm just telling you how I do it.

I use the 5 gallon plastic containers and I agree with the gripes about hoisting 30 lbs of fuel up to pour it in. The new self venting nozzles are horrible with the pitiful trickle they provide. Many thanks to the Vans AF member who posted the vent and nozzle kit that converts the cans to the old style of pouring from a vented container.

I thought about a fuel caddy, but then realized I would still have to fill cans at the station to then pour into the caddy before fueling my plane. (I have no practical way to transport a caddy with 120 lbs of fuel in it between the airport and gas station.

In the end I just continue to haul gas and curse the spills and weight of the cans.

Since 91UL is actually the preferred fuel (as recommended by Rotax), I have a feeling there is more to this story that just hasn't been discovered yet.....

Well Scott - I'd be happy to discuss it. I've spoke to several folks at Vans and the black hole that is Rotax support is what it is.

The questions I would have expected to be asked never came up. At some point I'll put it all on a blog but I wanted to hear Rotax say - no, we won't cover the failure.

The difference between AvGas and MoGas is about $0.50 / gallon here is CA. Takes a lot of fifty cents to cover a twenty thousand dollar engine. Just sayin.

product recommendation
 

I use a fuel transport system designed for sports enthusiasts (boaters, race cars, etc.) I have no financial interest or affiliation with the company, but think that their system works well.

I have 2 red transport jugs of 8 gal each and 1 hand cranked fuel pump that screws into each jug. I drive to the gas station, and purchase 16 gal of premium pump gas and drive back to the airport. I attach the pump and manually fill my tank in about 5 min of easy cranking. Put everything away, go fly!

http://flofast.com

The reason some transfer pumps say "diesel only" is that many of them are lubricated by the "oil" in diesel. Gasoline lacks this lubricating quality causing the pump to fail prematurely.

There are other, more likely, causes of a melted piston than using unleaded fuel recommended by Rotax: incorrect ignition timing, mechanical problems, oil lubrication problems, incorrect prop pitch.

Usually its the type of seals used and gas will cause them to swell and fail.
Used to work on diesel and gas engines have found out along with hydraulic seals the same.

Wonder why it was only one piston as there usually is damage to the others also but to a lesser degree as the hottest cylinder would have the most damage.

I don't know either.... There has been very little info provided so any explanation would just be a total guess on anyone's part.

There are details specific to the design of the 912 that could account for just one cyl having a problem....
With the two carb's each connected to just the left or right side cyl, a 912 is essentially two engines connected via a common crankshaft.
It is easy to accept that there could be a problem on one side that didn't exist on the other.
There is also differences between the front and rear cyl. on both sides. With the designed shape of the intake manifold, the induction flow for the rear cyl has to make a sharp turn immediately after exiting the carburetor. This results in a well known condition of the rear cyl. always running slightly leaner than the front cyl. (this can often be seen when inspecting the condition of spark plugs).
So it would be understandable that if a specific condition became marginal, that one of the cyl may have been negatively affected when the other wasn't (though Jim never mentioned which cyl had a problem).

Maybe this post is what you're referring to...http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...35&postcount=1

Fighting this along with everyone else, but I am surprised no one has mentioned the Swift Fuel UL94. I am on a campaign to get it at my airport and it would seem to be ideal for many of us. Has anyone else been using it?

If the engine is rated for the fuel, where is the loss of twenty thousand dollars?? You’re not making any sense. Just sayin’.

I’m in Wackifornia. Current price 100LL is $4.05/gallon and 91AKI is $2.89 at the local Quick Stop. Maybe everyone else is rich, but saving a more a couple AMU’s a year in fuel costs and having a cleaner engine that will go longer between oil changes makes a lot sense to me.

Ron, I'm right next door in the Burg. To keep in the spirit of this thread - it's your choice to run AutoFuel. You decide if all the extra handling, formula changes and lack of quality control is worth the risk to your plane, the planes around you and possibly your life.

I have twenty thou$and reasons why I won't. No mater the rating, I've got a box of parts that says it won't hold up.

I thought you were going with the UL?

Yes, Jim, that?s the post I was referring too. I?ve converted all my gas containers to vented ones.

I am doing UL. But much like the Rotax, the UL is rated to run on regular unleaded 91AKI fuel with up to 15% ethanol (I think the Rotax is only for 10%). It’s difficult for me to understand what risks you’re speaking of without more information - probably good for a separate thread.

My brother’s Piper Warrior runs on MOGAS just fine and has done so for many years. At the risk of being very obvious, my car runs fine on MOGAS and it’s the same compression ratio as my aircraft engine. Running MOGAS is just fine, assuming your engine is rated to run on it.

If the engine is rated to run on certain fuel and you’re still getting detonation, there’s likely something else at issue - maybe timing?

Back to the thread, transferring your own fuel is a very cost effective process.

What I do - -
 

I bought a smaller aluminum platform to stand on. I built a funnel that fits tight into filler neck. I can dump 5 - 6 gallons in less than a minute. Makes it much easier. Will try to get new pic site so I can show pics.

Test pic site - -
 

Still testing

I use a Mr Funnel to filter my auto fuel when I'm transferring to a Flo-Fast container then use a Flo-Fast pump to pump (http://www.flofast.com/pumpstore.html) it into my -12. I don't care for the extra transfer that takes but does have the advantage of filtering all fuel that goes into the plane. Using the pump easily transfers the fuel into the plane.

I use a Mr. Funnel too, the 5gpm model. Definitely recommended to get any water or particulate out. BTW, I’ve tested mine with a gallon of fuel containing 1qt of water and it really does a good job of holding water; I was impressed.

MoGas is filtered to 30 microns at the pump provided the distributor maintains their filters. AvGas is filtered at 10 microns - always. Your filter is good for 127 microns per the manufacture.

According to my filter label, it’s 50 microns, so I have no idea where you got your information. And the average paper element oil filter is 50-100 microns. Additionally, no paper element maintains the same filtration sizing, they only have an initial and not to exceed size. The actual ASTM allows “not to exceed” of 75 microns. But I thought your issue was with octane?

What’s your point?

I?ve been using gas pump UL premium for almost 6 years without dropping one bead of sweat over the gas quality from ARCO. Now you guys want to ruin my sleep quality!😱

That filter is 0.05 inches - not microns.

The thread is about refueling the RV-12 and how folks have approached that. Mine is to use to use a Flo-Fast pump rather than try to deal with hoisting a 5 gallon can. It works well. Part of what I do is transfer, at ground level, from the cans I get the gas into a Flo-Fast container using a funnel. What I chose was a Mr Funnel that provides an additional filter that also helps eliminate moisture that might be in the fuel. I'm not trying to argue the quality of the filter.

As far as the issue of AvGas vs MoGas that the thread seems to have morphed to, the engine manufacturer endorses the use of MoGas and so it would seem to be OK to use. I'm always open to new information, though, so if you have some hard data that indicates a problem using MoGas I'm interested in seeing it.

The engine manufacturer also endorses the use of AvGas so use that if you'd rather, just be sure to adjust the maintenance schedule accordingly.

Would it be possible to see a picture of the burnt piston and the diagnosis rotax gave on exactly what happened ?

I use VP racing jugs to fill my plane, you will not spill a drop using these as they have a 2ft clear tube that you fill from and solid handles. This is what people use for dirt bikes etc. And you can easily see the fuel level in them.

Julian,

Do you have a link to buy them?

Rich

I?ll start a new thread for the piston.

Folks, I was a proud advocate of hauling MoGas to the airport. Did so for nearly 250 gallons. My incident caused me to assess the risks involved- that?s all.
Each of us has to accept the risks of what it takes to escape the surly bonds.

The VP cans are the best.

Rich,

hose

https://www.amazon.com/VP-Racing-Fue...ds=vp+fuel+jug


jug

https://www.amazon.com/VP-Racing-Fue...CN8GEATTACT6YD

Here is a picture of my fuel cart. What I like about it;

It lines up well with the tail gate on the pickup, if you don't have a pickup this system still beats lifting the cans individually five feet off Terra firma.

You can take the furl out line off the fuel cell tank, extend it to a five gallon can on the floor, put the fuel nozzle (previously fuel out from the cell) into the fuel cell and fill the cell. This way you never have to lift anything off the floor or out of your trunk (remember, the cart has four wheels) As you may have surmised, I'm too old to be doing any of this.

The cart is composite, very light and purchased from Uline I think. I'll look it up is anyone cares to know.

The fill nozzle is very convenient, with no spillage.

I've pumped over fifty gallons with it without a battery charge.

The black fuel cell is standard circle track stuff, pricey new ($300.00) but cheap if you scout around your local auto racing shops. Everything is AN so it becomes a safe reliable integration.

What I don't like;

The cost adds up, I had the cell but if you bought it all new, over six hundred bucks.

It's one more d**n "system" that needs to be maintained, pampered and charged.

There has been some discussion about filtration. I fill the cell, whether at the gas station, or from five gallon cans, into a funnel with an automotive paper paint strainer. I have no idea what it's micron rejection is but will probably get a lesson on it shortly :D

vern,
i have basically the same set up with a 55 gal. drum but my automotive fuel pump is very anemic for this purpose. can you name a supplier of your pump?
thanks.