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-   -   thoughts on vans pricing release (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=155040)

Captain Avgas 11-08-2017 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RyanB (Post 1217539)
Bob, I agree completely, but what I think the worry for most Current 4 builders is that if you don?t have all 4 subkits, you have now been given just over a month to come up with the cash to get whatever is outstanding, and if you can?t we?ll then your 4 is going to become a very expensive toy.

The RV4 was effectively rendered obsolete when the RV8 was introduced in 1995. In other words virtually all ongoing RV4 builders have had at least 22 years to buy all their kits. ;)

n82rb 11-09-2017 12:57 AM

I think one of the things that worries me the most is the wording of the release. Like prices significantly increase, spares MAY be available, and delivery times of two years. If I hit a bird and need a couple of wing ribs that are now 20 bucks and they go to 200 bucks and it takes two years to get them, it renders my plane un-repairable. Or someone that just started the wings, buys the other kits now but messes up a former in the fuse two years down the road, and can't get a new one. If find the release lacking in details as to what over 4000 owners might be facing. I don't have a problem with long lead times for a new kit, or even discontinuing a kit, but not being able to get parts that are hard to make, such as hydro formed parts and heat treated parts, is a bit scary.

Bob burns

snopercod 11-09-2017 03:25 AM

Being a Lancair builder, I'd like to add a different perspective. When Lance started selling the model 235 kits in the late eighties, they were really inexpensive. My kit cost only $15,975 (not including engine, panel, interior, and paint). In retrospect, it's clear that Lance grossly underestimated the costs of "after-care": engineering updates, customer service and spare parts (and probably liability insurance). Lance designed some great airplanes but (IMHO), was a poor businessman. The company continued to support the original customers for almost 30 years, but they were hemorrhaging money at the end and finally had to give it up.

All I am saying is that it's important to all RVers that the company stay in business. If Vans has to raise prices on certain older designs in order to cover their costs, then I see that as reasonable and necessary.

Flame away!

-goose 11-09-2017 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n82rb (Post 1217568)
I think one of the things that worries me the most is the wording of the release. Like prices significantly increase, spares MAY be available, and delivery times of two years. If I hit a bird and need a couple of wing ribs that are now 20 bucks and they go to 200 bucks and it takes two years to get them, it renders my plane un-repairable. Or someone that just started the wings, buys the other kits now but messes up a former in the fuse two years down the road, and can't get a new one. If find the release lacking in details as to what over 4000 owners might be facing. I don't have a problem with long lead times for a new kit, or even discontinuing a kit, but not being able to get parts that are hard to make, such as hydro formed parts and heat treated parts, is a bit scary.

Bob burns

t

Bob I don't think it's too much of a concern - the skills to hand make these parts are easily acquired should it ever come to that, or it would be easy enough to find someone else who could do them. You won't be tied to the factory if repairs are ever needed.

bkervaski 11-09-2017 05:58 AM

This is one of those topics that immediately fell victim to "Forum Fever".

Nowhere does it say anything was being discontinued, if anything, it was a letter of ongoing commitment but just putting those models on notice that after many decades it's time to wind them down.

How long should Vans support a kit? What is reasonable? I think I'll start a separate vote thread on that.

WingsOnWheels 11-09-2017 06:10 AM

I can't speak to the 3, but for the -4 and 6, there is not a single part that you cannot fab yourself. All the info is in the plans, materials, heat-treat, dimensions. Parts like gear legs would be expensive, but a bird strike? You can make a couple ribs faster than the current shipping time from Vans. A piece of MDF, a jigsaw, ruler, mallet, and you are in business. Yes, it would be more work, but if the lead time turned into months, then you have time. Except for the ribs and bulkheads, most everything is flat or a couple straight bends. I'm not too concerned. The only part that sucks is the end of -3 kits for the most part.

Mark Dickens 11-09-2017 06:24 AM

It seems that some want to conflate "support" with "timing". My only issue is timing. Of course, you can't support a product forever, but to put builders in a corner with less than two months notice? If they had said that the price increases (undefined, but "significant") were effective a year from now or even July 1, 2018, I'd completely support that. That gives a reasonable amount of time to plan the remaining build, cash flow, etc.

bkervaski 11-09-2017 06:36 AM

Quote:

to put builders in a corner with less than two months notice
If they had done that with the modern kits (7-14) then I would agree, but the kits they put on notice were 30+ years old:

1971 RV-3 (46 years)
1980 RV-4 (37 years)
1986 RV-6 (31 years)

It's a gift of reassurance that they issued a statement of continuing commitment to these kits.

Canadian_JOY 11-09-2017 06:37 AM

Last year I was essentially told by insurers to "look elsewhere" for insurance for my plans-built homebuilt airplane. Their rationale was that lack of "factory" support for parts would make ANY incident that bent the airplane a write-off event.

From reading all the posts in this thread I get the feeling the -3 and -4 builders/owners are a far cry from being in this predicament. Having some or all parts available, albeit perhaps at increased price and lead times, keeps the designs alive and viable.

bkervaski 11-09-2017 06:47 AM

Quote:

Their rationale was that lack of "factory" support for parts would make ANY incident that bent the airplane a write-off event.
Yea, I can see that rationale for plans-built.

There are a lot of RV-6's out there that need insurance, somebody would step up.

Anybody in the insurance industry have an opinion?

Saville 11-09-2017 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n82rb (Post 1217568)
IIf I hit a bird and need a couple of wing ribs that are now 20 bucks and they go to 200 bucks and it takes two years to get them, it renders my plane un-repairable.
Bob burns

Your comment makes me think that it might be wise to buy a couple wing ribs, vertical stab and horizontal stab ribs now so that in case they were needed for repair or fabrication of more, we would have them.

David-aviator 11-09-2017 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n82rb (Post 1217216)
first, I have the utmost respect for van and the people at vans aircraft. I don't want to start any bashing or anything along those lines. I am wondering what people think about the pricing and availability release.

I understand what they are up against with all the models of aircraft that they produce and that there are costs with servicing these models. there is fine line between profit line and customer service. changes must come as new models are introduced and older model sales slow or even stop ( as in the case of the 6)

what really concerns me is not knowing what "significantly" is. what has this decision done to the value of every 3, 4, and 6 out there? if parts become 1 to 2 years to get and significantly higher in price, I am afraid that the value of my aircraft just went down the sewer. what will parts availability do to insurance rates? expensive parts, long lead times usually leads to higher hull rates or even unavailability to get hull coverage.

I believe that vans did not come to this decision lightly, but I cant help but feel that they just threw everyone that helped them become as great a company they are under the bus.

bob burns
RV-4 N82RB

Van's is a business, decisions are made in that context.

View it from that perspective and it makes sense.

They can not support last year's model forever any more that GM supports old classic cars they've produced and sold over the years.

sf3543 11-09-2017 07:43 AM

Luckily for me my RV3 is almost done and I have all the parts already purchased.
In my opinion, most of the parts from VANs are the basic aluminum pieces that can be fabricated by just about anyone who can build a 3, 4 or 6. My three already has a few RV8 parts in it and I?m sure a lot of the current kit parts can be modified for the older kits.
The hard to make parts, like canopies, weldments and cowling are made by third party suppliers anyway and I?m pretty sure they would be happy to sell you one of their parts if VANs no longer makes them available.
At any rate, business is business and if it keeps VANs going I?m all for it.
You never know, I might want to build an RV16!

Snowflake 11-09-2017 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saville (Post 1217622)
Your comment makes me think that it might be wise to buy a couple wing ribs, vertical stab and horizontal stab ribs now so that in case they were needed for repair or fabrication of more, we would have them.

I was thinking the same thing... Which means there's about to be a scarcity of partially-built -3, -4, and -6 kits, that people will be buying and stockpiling for the future, rather than finishing into flying aircraft.

bkervaski 11-09-2017 08:30 AM

Quote:

They can not support last year's model forever any more that GM supports old classic cars they've produced and sold over the years.
.. and GM sells many millions of cars per year

JonJay 11-09-2017 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake (Post 1217642)
I was thinking the same thing... Which means there's about to be a scarcity of partially-built -3, -4, and -6 kits, that people will be buying and stockpiling for the future, rather than finishing into flying aircraft.

Ribs are formed at an outside vendor. I have seen the tooling. I would be surprised if Vans wouldn't allow you to contact them directly. It is a small outfit that will do one offs.
Regardless, you can fabricate a rib less lightening holes with a simple MDF form block. There are a few EAA videos on how to do it. You can cut and flange the lightening holes if you feel the need.
The plans show the rib profiles.
Although they fabricate them out of "O" or "W" (not sure) and then temper, there is no reason you can't form them directly out of T3 Sheet.
An MDF form should hold up for at least a few ribs if not more.

Sam Buchanan 11-09-2017 09:06 AM

Me thinks we are seeing a bright line being drawn between aircraft assemblers and aircraft builders....... ;)

Saville 11-09-2017 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Buchanan (Post 1217679)
Me thinks we are seeing a bright line being drawn between aircraft assemblers and aircraft builders....... ;)

And there's another line as well - between aircraft owners of EAB's who didn't build but will maintain and if necessary repair. :)

For many of those people, they don't have the full set of skills that assemblers or builders have. So they have no idea how to form a rib or cut the lightening holes but are willing to learn. For them, having one or two on hand is a tremendous help.

I own an -8 which is not part of the change in Van's business. Still, I think it might be very helpful to have a spare or two on hand.

grubbat 11-09-2017 09:25 AM

Agree
 
I was thinking the same thing Sam. Profit margin for assemblers is obviously a lot higher.

But hey, it could be worse folks. My other plane was orphaned after only 5yrs by a flood. It didn't help that the surviving tooling was buried. After 50yrs, she's still flying.

One thing to consider is that when a company decides to vacate a market, it opens up an opportunity for others who may not need the profit margins nor have the overhead costs. In this case Vans isn't vacating, just increasing lead time and cost while reducing inventory. Sounds like a smart business decision to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Buchanan (Post 1217679)
Me thinks we are seeing a bright line being drawn between aircraft assemblers and aircraft builders....... ;)


rv6builder 11-09-2017 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Buchanan (Post 1217679)
Me thinks we are seeing a bright line being drawn between aircraft assemblers and aircraft builders....... ;)

I reckon you nailed it!

Snowflake 11-09-2017 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonJay (Post 1217664)
Ribs are formed at an outside vendor. I have seen the tooling. I would be surprised if Vans wouldn't allow you to contact them directly. It is a small outfit that will do one offs.
Regardless, you can fabricate a rib less lightening holes with a simple MDF form block. There are a few EAA videos on how to do it. You can cut and flange the lightening holes if you feel the need.
The plans show the rib profiles.
Although they fabricate them out of "O" or "W" (not sure) and then temper, there is no reason you can't form them directly out of T3 Sheet.
An MDF form should hold up for at least a few ribs if not more.

I agree, but I wasn't thinking of small one-part repairs. I was thinking in terms of non-builder owners who ding something serious, and need whole assemblies... A new wing, horizontal stab, elevator, flap, etc. for whatever reason and would rather find a new one than have to learn homebuilding to fabricate a replacement from scratch.

RV7A Flyer 11-09-2017 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonJay (Post 1217664)
Ribs are formed at an outside vendor. I have seen the tooling. I would be surprised if Vans wouldn't allow you to contact them directly. It is a small outfit that will do one offs.
Regardless, you can fabricate a rib less lightening holes with a simple MDF form block. There are a few EAA videos on how to do it. You can cut and flange the lightening holes if you feel the need.
The plans show the rib profiles.
Although they fabricate them out of "O" or "W" (not sure) and then temper, there is no reason you can't form them directly out of T3 Sheet.
An MDF form should hold up for at least a few ribs if not more.

Aren't they all NACA profiles to begin with?

I have no idea, but which models have the same NACA 4 or 5 digit profiles? I believe the 7 and 8 are the same IIRC, but what about the 3, 4 or 6? Are they the same 23013.5?

LettersFromFlyoverCountry 11-09-2017 01:38 PM

For anyone who doesn't spend a lot of time in the Forums, the discussion is interesting but there's no detail or link to what people are talking about. Can someone post the actual release?

[ed. Bob, it's on the front page of VAF for the next few days... v/r,dr]

bkervaski 11-09-2017 01:40 PM

@LettersFromFlyoverCountry https://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/letters/RV-3-4-6P1.pdf

MLock 11-09-2017 05:58 PM

This new policy is not to be misconstrued as a faltering in our commitment or willingness to support our customers whether an order was placed yesterday or forty-six years ago. We will produce a singular part if need be to make certain the reason an RV doesn?t fly is not due to us. But the economic reality to perpetuate this level of dedication compels us to make hard choices. Any model we produce must generate enough revenue to at least keep it from being subsidized. This was our only path to keep these models viable, old ones flying and hopefully new ones to finally take to the air.

rv6builder 11-09-2017 06:30 PM

Thanks for stepping in Mitch its great to hear your reasoning and commitment to support. I totally understand Vans' position!

Rv3Dave 11-09-2017 06:57 PM

Good to hear your commitment Mitch but I have to point out that your public announcement says parts MAY be available not WILL be. Expressing a commitment to parts for these kits would have alleviated many of the concerns expressed in this thread.

gasman 11-09-2017 10:36 PM

Let's look at subsidized..... Isn't it true that the RV8, and then the RV7 was heavily subsidized by the RV6/6A?

In fact, the main reason to discontinue RV6 parts is so the 7 can catch up and claim to be the most popular kit aircraft in the world....... That still won't happen for a long time.



OK, just kidding. I think Van's just made a good business choice but was a little short on relaying the information.

In 1999 I was excited about all of the glass kits. And then some dropped out. I did airframe repair in the AirForce. Aluminum aircraft are very repairable in the field. I headed towards the RV6A for that reason. It has been said before, the PLANS that come with your RV6 kit has all of the information needed to fabricate any part of the airframe.

If I remember correctly back then, Van said they were an airframe company, not an aircraft company.

n82rb 11-10-2017 08:18 AM

Thank you Mitchell for chiming in. Maybe a little more infowould put some of us more at ease. As I have said a few times, the wording has me worried. It uses some very wide open terms. Since this new pricing is in effect in less than 2 months, I would assume you know what those numbers are. Are we talking 20%, 60%, 500%? Given past sales how long do you anticipate the current parts stock to be depleted? Any estimates as to the percent rise once it becomes a custom one off operation? 50%,100%, 1000%? It's kind of scary not knowing what screwing up a part could cost farther into the build.

Bob burns
Rv-4

RV6_flyer 11-10-2017 08:39 AM

Those of us that have built and are flying an RV for more than 20-years that we built have drawings for each part and can make the part from our own sourced materials. When I messed up a part while building, I made some of my own replacement parts and some I purchased from Van's. It cost me the same or more in material to make the part as if I purchased the part ready made from Van's.

So Van's will now not be making large batches of parts for our older model airplanes. I would not be afraid to bet that the new parts pricing structure is the same cost or less than for me to pay myself to make the part and pay for the material. Those that do not want to pay Van's for the part can take their drawings to an A&P and pay the A&P for his time to make the part.

Van's has the tooling. It is only fair that they make a profit on the time and material that they use to sell us parts. It one spends some time price shopping, one finds that when Van's does not have the lowest price on an item, they are very close to the lowest price. This is from being a Van's Aircraft Customer for more than 28-years and price shopping on many items.

Saville 11-10-2017 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n82rb (Post 1217975)
Thank you Mitchell for chiming in. Maybe a little more infowould put some of us more at ease. As I have said a few times, the wording has me worried. It uses some very wide open terms.

I think that's probably done on purpose given that Van's cannot predict delays and pricing.....they just can't know how things will shake out.

Larco 11-10-2017 12:43 PM

It might just knock the heck out of the resale value of the earlier models as well??

KatieB 11-10-2017 01:06 PM

I doubt resale will be affected. Most parts can be made from scratch. I made a wing leading edge skin, rudder skin, stiffeners, tail tips, hinge brackets, instrument panel, half my canopy frame, glass canopy skirt and tail fairing from raw stock. I've made wing ribs from form blocks too. I screwed up some of my Vans parts and just made new ones from scrap. Anything you get from Vans has to be trimmed, adjusted and drilled to your airframe anyhow. Its usually cheaper and quicker than ordering Van's parts.

ChiefPilot 11-10-2017 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larco (Post 1218025)
It might just knock the heck out of the resale value of the earlier models as well??

It will for some, undoubtedly. The kind-of-ironic thing is that those will mostly be the same folks that couldn't install a new part (wing rib, for example) by themselves anyway.

EXflyer 11-13-2017 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KatieB (Post 1218030)
I doubt resale will be affected. Most parts can be made from scratch. I made a wing leading edge skin, rudder skin, stiffeners, tail tips, hinge brackets, instrument panel, half my canopy frame, glass canopy skirt and tail fairing from raw stock. I've made wing ribs from form blocks too. I screwed up some of my Vans parts and just made new ones from scrap. Anything you get from Vans has to be trimmed, adjusted and drilled to your airframe anyhow. Its usually cheaper and quicker than ordering Van's parts.

Heck when I was building my RV3 some parts were, well, basic starting points. The long rivets in the wing spar were things to loose sleep over trying to drive them before all of the neat tools showed up, after I had mine done. That was the good part, instructions were almost none existant, you picked thru the plans hoping you didn't miss something.
If it were today I would have a completed aircraft due to the fabrication Van has done since my kit.

KRviator 01-06-2018 10:08 PM

So The Mothership has released the updated prices for th RV-3...total has gone from $16,230 last year to $21,750. It isn't as bad as I had initially feared, but still a big chunk of change, with lead times listed as 2 months for all subkitw bar the empennage.

Anyone want to buy a low-time -9A? :-P

rv6builder 01-06-2018 11:38 PM

Thats really not bad at all. Two month lead time is nothing, takes me longer than that to clean the work shop sometimes.... Well maybe thats a slight exagguraton but still not a long wait.

Alex

arffguy 01-07-2018 01:46 AM

Yikes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KRviator (Post 1230339)
So The Mothership has released the updated prices for th RV-3...total has gone from $16,230 last year to $21,750.


Wow, that's a 34 percent increase! For two grand more, you can have an RV-7 kit with all the extra work done for you.

Ironflight 01-07-2018 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arffguy (Post 1230352)
Wow, that's a 34 percent increase! For two grand more, you can have an RV-7 kit with all the extra work done for you.

Ahh....but that's the thing. If you look at the completed aircraft, the kit price is only about a third - figure a third for the kit, and a third for avionics and other equipment as well. So the 34 percent increase in the kit price isn't anywhere near as significant.

This is what people don't think about when looking at RV-3's. They figure "half the seats, half the airplane, half the price....." Nope - kit price is overwhelmed by the rest of what you need to make an airplane. A single-seater isn't that much less expensive than a two-seater...which is why so many people go with two-seaters. More bang for the buck. Unless you really savor the handling and performance of the single seater, and are in a situation where you can justify it.

Billythekid 01-07-2018 10:23 AM

the love
 
we are all in this for our own reasons and will do what ever we(as individuals) will do and to do what we want, be it build or fly and basically follow our free will... it really is pointless to ponder THEIR move.. I will build on.


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