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-   -   ADS-B "Save" (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=153326)

snopercod 09-14-2017 04:20 PM

Thanks
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bicyclops (Post 1204034)
... if you are not broadcasting ADS-B out, you will not trigger the re-broadcast. You have to count on somebody in the same vicinity as you with out capability to trigger the re-broadcast.

Thanks for explaining that.

GalinHdz 09-14-2017 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bicyclops (Post 1204034)
But, and this is the rub, if you are not broadcasting ADS-B out, you will not trigger the re-broadcast. You have to count on somebody in the same vicinity as you with out capability to trigger the re-broadcast.

And the re-broadcast you receive is the traffic meant for the other guy, not necessarily the traffic near you. This can be VERY misleading and give a false sense of security for the person with only ADS-B in.

:cool:

Pat Hatch 09-14-2017 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rv7boy (Post 1203986)
Okay, so I'll ask the neophyte questions...

Did you receive the traffic alert because the twin had ADS-B out? Or better stated, would you have received an alert if the twin was not equipped with ADS-B out?

I'm just trying to learn. My biggest concern is that out in the boondocks (which is most of the country's airspace), where aircraft without ADS-B out can operate after 2020 legally (generally in non Class A, non Class B and non Class C and Class E below 10,000 MSL), some good ol' boy could come honking along and not be seen by a pilot who's on snooze control because he has the latest and greatest avionics. It's still going to be "see and avoid" for VFR cross-country after 2020, right?

I know I need to read and study about ADS-B, but I'd like to hear some discussion from pilots who are already using it.

What you are describing is known as ADS-R or "re-broadcast." So theoretically the controller has the twin on his radar, you are ads-b in and out, you should receive the twin's position through ADS-R even though the twin may not have ADS-B out. Here's a brief explanation on the FAA website:

https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/ins_and_outs/

GalinHdz 09-14-2017 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat Hatch (Post 1204072)
What you are describing is known as ADS-R or "re-broadcast." So theoretically the controller has the twin on his radar, you are ads-b in and out, you should receive the twin's position through ADS-R even though the twin may not have ADS-B out. Here's a brief explanation on the FAA website:

https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/ins_and_outs/

Actually it is TIS-B not ADS-R.

"TIS-B is a client-based service that provides ADS-B Out/In equipped aircraft with surveillance information about aircraft that are not ADS-B equipped. To qualify as a TIS-B target, an aircraft must be equipped with a transponder, and be within radar coverage."

;)

Pat Hatch 09-14-2017 05:03 PM

Yes, you're right, of course. It's TIS-B, not ADS-R, which is a little different. Got to stay on top of all of these acronyms!

vic syracuse 09-14-2017 05:25 PM

I feel your pain, if you want to call it that. I am just getting over what should have been a mid air a couple of weeks ago. It gave me the chills all the way home and for a couple of weeks, quite honestly. And it has me wondering if we are paying to much attention to the electronics or just relying on them too much.

I had just performed a DAR inspection at an airport in Florida underneath the Orlando Class B. I was departing and headed north on an IFR flight plan, but had departed without a clearance as it was good VFR where I was departing. After take off at 1000' I did my usual of setting climb power, engaging the autopilot, checking for traffic on the EFIS, & switching frequencies. As I glanced over to the center console to verify the com swap had worked and I was going to be transmitting on the right frequency, something caught my eye flashing by underneath the left wing. It was the top of a Cessna and I really don't know how I missed the ADF antenna wire with my landing gear! Mind you, I had been looking forward up until I glanced over at the radio stack. It was that quick.

A short delay in my takeoff roll, or any other myriad of of things, and I know I would have been a statistic.

I know head on traffic is the hardest to see. We learn it, I teach it as a CFII, and am always watchful. It didn't work this time, and shook me up pretty good.

BTW, I checked the screen and NO traffic showed up on it after we passed, and that person was within 5 seconds of being underneath the Class B. Either the transponder was off, inoperative, or the ADSB hadn't got it to my aircraft yet. I'll never know, but I sure am thankful we didn't collide.

Vic

rv7boy 09-14-2017 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat Hatch (Post 1204072)
...Here's a brief explanation on the FAA website:

https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/ins_and_outs/

Thank you, Pat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GalinHdz (Post 1204077)
Actually it is TIS-B not ADS-R. ;)

Thank you, Galin.

These two posts are very valuable and informative.

This thread is very educational.

maus92 09-14-2017 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vic syracuse (Post 1204083)
I feel your pain, if you want to call it that. I am just getting over what should have been a mid air a couple of weeks ago. It gave me the chills all the way home and for a couple of weeks, quite honestly. And it has me wondering if we are paying to much attention to the electronics or just relying on them too much.

I had just performed a DAR inspection at an airport in Florida underneath the Orlando Class B. I was departing and headed north on an IFR flight plan, but had departed without a clearance as it was good VFR where I was departing. After take off at 1000' I did my usual of setting climb power, engaging the autopilot, checking for traffic on the EFIS, & switching frequencies. As I glanced over to the center console to verify the com swap had worked and I was going to be transmitting on the right frequency, something caught my eye flashing by underneath the left wing. It was the top of a Cessna and I really don't know how I missed the ADF antenna wire with my landing gear! Mind you, I had been looking forward up until I glanced over at the radio stack. It was that quick.

A short delay in my takeoff roll, or any other myriad of of things, and I know I would have been a statistic.

I know head on traffic is the hardest to see. We learn it, I teach it as a CFII, and am always watchful. It didn't work this time, and shook me up pretty good.

BTW, I checked the screen and NO traffic showed up on it after we passed, and that person was within 5 seconds of being underneath the Class B. Either the transponder was off, inoperative, or the ADSB hadn't got it to my aircraft yet. I'll never know, but I sure am thankful we didn't collide.

Vic

Question: Does Orlando's approach radar support TIS-A, and are you able to receive those targets from your transponder?

I've found that once I'm established on cruise, have the course set, and engaged the autopilot, I spend most of my time looking out of the cockpit in VFR conditions. I occasionally scan the instruments, but now rely more on EFIS alerts than a constant instrument scan. I look at the traffic display from time to time to get an idea what's around, and what might be coming my way. What I find surprising is the traffic that shows up on the display that you never see, and the traffic that you don't see until it gets *too* close. Eye-openning.

rv8ch 09-14-2017 10:37 PM

Wow
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vic syracuse (Post 1204083)
... BTW, I checked the screen and NO traffic showed up on it after we passed, and that person was within 5 seconds of being underneath the Class B. Either the transponder was off, inoperative, or the ADSB hadn't got it to my aircraft yet. I'll never know, but I sure am thankful we didn't collide.

Vic

That is scary, Vic. From what I read in this thread, seems like we have to have our heads outside to look for bogeys, keep talking to ATC, make sure we have the latest tech in the cockpit, and be lucky!

I've had a few close calls, but nothing like that. Sure gets your attention.

vic syracuse 09-15-2017 04:52 AM

[quote=maus92;1204142]Question: Does Orlando's approach radar support TIS-A, and are you able to receive those targets from your transponder?


Yes, I see TIS-A targets in the Atlanta area (it even says TIS-A on the AFS EFIS). I don't know if Orlando supports TIS-A.

I agree with the other comment about how many targets are displayed and yet it seems like sometimes no amount of eyestraining and looking can visually acquire the target. Spooky at times.

What I really hate is to be in solid IMC and hear ATC call a traffic followed by "we aren't talking to him." Have had that happen more than once. Yes, there's no doubt they are IFR without a clearance.

Vic


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