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-   -   Lycoming SB 632 7/17/2017 (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=151506)

jwilbur 07-25-2017 10:57 AM

Tool update?
 
Anybody see this ST-531 tool yet?

KJBSouth 07-26-2017 01:49 PM

Saw the tool
 
The S/B tool was at the OSH Lyc. booth yesterday. Was told they are making ~40 per day.

Also, that Lyc. will send me a crate for my never run 360-M1B and pay freight both ways if I wish. The engine is currently mounted on the airframe with all sensors and ascessories connected. I'll first see if a local shop will send a mechanic and do the job in my hangar and for the allowed hours.

I talked to two engine shops at OSH today and both thought the job could be done in the warranty allowed hours. :rolleyes:

jwilbur 07-26-2017 01:53 PM

Yep.
 
I saw it too.

I was surprised to receive the tool in the mail yesterday from Lycoming along with the top overhaul gasket kit. I expected it to take a lot longer given the high demand. I'm planning to have a local A&P do the work for me while I watch.

bruceflys 07-30-2017 06:54 AM

Do Not Ignore This SB
 
I spoke separately with a tech rep and the head of product support at Oshkosh about SB 632. The connecting rod bushings from an outside supplier assembled properly. Only when field failures occurred did the company realize that some did not meet specs. The failure modes are 1) making metal, 2) loose piston pins and plugs banging around in the cylinder and 3) connecting rod breaking. The company showed pix of broken connecting rods that failed IN FLIGHT.

I asked about operating with frequent oil analysis and filter cuts to early detect an impending failure. Both said no, as some failures occurred less than 25 hours after clean oil changes.

As mentioned above, a demonstration showed that the test with their tool is quick and simple. Exposing the connecting rods is not. Lycoming's policy is to re-hone and re-ring a cylinder if the piston is ever removed, even on new engines with only test cell time. The reps stressed pulling the cylinder only enough to remove the piston pin and caps, leaving most of the piston and the rings in the cylinder.

For those of us who bought engines through Vans, that company is our dealer and the conduit for warranty reimbursement. I hope that we will hear something about procedures once Vans' product support persons return from Wisconsin.

FWIW, both had a chagrined attitude and said that Lycoming wanted to make things right.

jwilbur 07-30-2017 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruceflys (Post 1191471)
For those of us who bought engines through Vans, that company is our dealer and the conduit for warranty reimbursement. I hope that we will hear something about procedures once Vans' product support persons return from Wisconsin.

I don't think you need to go through Van's. I bought my engine and prop through Van's about 16 months ago. When the SB was first released I spoke with Lycoming and they told me I could work with any Lycoming distributor. I contacted Triad and they are handling all the warranty claims for me. In fact, it was less than a week from when I contacted them to when I had the tool and top overhaul gasket kit in hand. As mentioned in a previous post, I was very pleasantly surprised how quickly they responded. Because I'm just a single experimental customer whose not even flying yet, I was anticipating a long wait for the tool.

Obviously I wish I didn't have to deal with tearing down a bran new engine that's only run for 0.6 hours on my airplane. But stuff happens. And so far my experience with Lycoming and Triad has been surprisingly very positive.

ctennis 07-30-2017 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwilbur (Post 1191548)
In fact, it was less than a week from when I contacted them to when I had the tool and top overhaul gasket kit in hand.

I wish I had the same experience.

When the SB came out, I started calling distributors. The first I called I left a message, which they never returned. The next I called said they didn't want to talk to me, they wanted to talk to a mechanic who would be doing the work (on an non-certificated engine??). I had an A&P call them back, but he got nowhere.

Finally I found a company where I could speak to a reasonable person, and got the tool and gasket kit ordered last Friday. I called back again this past Friday (a week later) to find out they still haven't received ANY of the tools yet for the people who were even ahead of me in line for them. I asked if Lycoming was preferring one distributor over another, since I've heard of others already getting the tool. He was very doubtful, and said he if found out that was happening there would be some major repercussions.

I just got my RV-8 airworthiness certificate 3 days ago. At this point, no clue when I'll actually be able to go flying though. However, I'm also at peace with the ordeal knowing that I'm glad I wasn't one of the unlucky ones who found out about the bad bushings the hard way.

jwilbur 07-30-2017 06:03 PM

When I'm finished with the tool I'll post here (hopefully early this week). I'll send it to anyone still waiting. Then they can send it to someone else, etc.

tturner 07-30-2017 06:49 PM

SB-632 completed
 
I order the tool and gasket kit from Aircraft Spruce the Friday before OSH. It arrived Last Friday. I removed the cylinders today performed the inspection and reassembled the engine. All my rod bushings are fine ( IO-360-M1B ). I had already removed the baffling last week. The first cylinder took about 2 hours ( this does not count time to remove and replace exhaust, intake runners and oil drain lines ), after that they were about an hour each. It is real touchy trying to keep from exposing the rings. I laid a piece of carpet under the engine in case I dropped anything and it save a lifter and one pin button. I removed and replaced the cylinders one at a time which negates the need for the torque plates. I think I spend more time assembling the documentation and lubricants needed then it took to do the work. I received my engine June 2016 and I have not run it. The date code on the connecting rods was 12/15/15.

BGS 08-02-2017 01:06 PM

Affected
 
I also have a brand new 540 in the crate that was purchased through Vans. Called and spoke to Lycoming and they are covering all costs to send the engine back, inspect, fix, return. Luckily it is not installed on the plan yet and still in the box. Still a pain but nearly as bad as some I would suppose.

bruceflys 08-04-2017 12:00 PM

Runaround
 
As instructed by Lycoming, I contacted Vans as my engine distributor asking how to obtain the tool and gasket kit and for instructions about later submitting a warranty claim. My email to Support, which explained that I was referred by Lycoming, was answered by Fedosia in the Parts Dept with this statement, "If your engine is on the list for the service bulletin contact Lycoming for questions."

That is hardy the response I expected after giving Vans $47,000 for a new engine. Has anyone else gotten better info as to how Vans will handle this situation?

Meanwhile I sent my questions to Support and Fedosia again.

bruceflys 08-04-2017 12:14 PM

2nd Response
 
Vans quickly got back to me with the following, "Van's is not dealing with this SB here. We will not have the tools etc. The person you talked with at Lycoming is misinformed. Please contact Jonathan Korelitz, our Lycoming rep. for instructions."

Looks like we are on our own to find the tool and gaskets at Spruce, Aviall, etc.

Mean while AOPA sent this bulletin: https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...n=170803epilot

ctennis 08-04-2017 02:20 PM

Yep, very disappointing. Good luck getting anywhere with some of the distributors too. If you're not a shop or an A&P with an account, they also won't deal with you.

I ordered a gasket kit from Omaha Airplane Supply. I also had the tool on order with them, but Tommy Turner nicely sent me his at cost. It took 1.5 weeks for the gasket kit to arrive and drop ship to me, and I don't know how much longer the tool would have taken.

My understanding is Spruce has them both now listed, and if you call and talk to the counter sales they can handle the warranty claim too.

Lycoming is not reimbursing the tool, though I hear you can get some of a credit back for returning it.

If anyone needs the ST-531, I should be done with it after this weekend and will be glad to send it on at cost.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruceflys (Post 1193131)
Vans quickly got back to me with the following, "Van's is not dealing with this SB here. We will not have the tools etc. The person you talked with at Lycoming is misinformed. Please contact Jonathan Korelitz, our Lycoming rep. for instructions."

Looks like we are on our own to find the tool and gaskets at Spruce, Aviall, etc.


jwilbur 08-04-2017 10:13 PM

ST-531
 
With the help of a few local A&Ps I got the work done for SB632. I have the ST-531 tool available if anyone needs it. Send me a PM.

ctennis 08-05-2017 10:31 AM

Not so lucky as the others: two bad bushings in mine! One bushing required about 1/2 of a turn before it slipped, the other about 1.5 turns. The other two were fine.

My A&P said and expletive on the first one. He's pretty shocked. He went back and checked the two that are "good" from the other direction just to make sure.


Rv3Dave 08-05-2017 10:58 AM

Revision to SB 632
 
There is a revision to this SB that came out Aug 4. No big change but more detail about inspection procedures. I am waiting on info from rebuild shop on when my rod bearings were received from Lycoming. My engine was assembled with new Lycoming rod bearings but I don't know when those bearings came from Lycoming.

RickSolana 08-06-2017 06:23 AM

Recommended engine repair facility
 
Well, my brand new engine is on the list. 80 hours, flying since March. After reading Mike Busch's comments, I am thinking I should take this plane to a really good repair facility and not just a local A&P.

Can anyone recommend a good repair shop to me? I am in Virginia, but am willing to fly it to a shop that is further away. In the end, i want to be flying an engine that I trust has been reassembled well. Some names I have come up with so far are Penn Yan, Zephyr, Triad, Aero Performance in PA. Does Aviall do repairs or just parts? Does Lycoming do engine repairs at their shop? What about Barrett's, Aerosport power, Superior, etc. You can tell I don't know anything about these shops!

Thanks for the help,

Rick Solana
RV-10
N804RS

BillL 08-06-2017 06:36 AM

Is that s SPLIT bushing????
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ctennis (Post 1193396)
Not so lucky as the others: two bad bushings in mine! One bushing required about 1/2 of a turn before it slipped, the other about 1.5 turns. The other two were fine.

My A&P said and expletive on the first one. He's pretty shocked. He went back and checked the two that are "good" from the other direction just to make sure.

Is that a split bushing !?!?!?!?! :eek: :eek:

or a weird mark??

ctennis 08-06-2017 08:31 AM

It is split, but it's supposed to be. However the amount of split is likely the problem as to why it can "slip" out of place. Probably a tolerance issue in the part by the supplier.

Rotorheadrob 08-07-2017 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Ashby (Post 1188867)
A quote from the SB

"YOU MUST COMPLETE THE ?REQUIRED ACTION? IN THIS SERVICE BULLETIN. IF YOU DO NOT COMPLETE THE ?REQUIRED ACTION? IN THIS SERVICE BULLETIN, AND THE CONNECTING ROD BUSHING MOVES OUT OF PLACE, THE CONNECTING ROD CAN FAIL AND CAUSE UN-COMMANDED STRUCTURAL ENGINE FAILURE."

I love that term, "Un-Commanded Structural Engine Failure", as opposed to, I guess, a "Commanded Structural Engine Failure".

I am wiring the cockpit right now. I am thinking of putting in a switch with the notation of "Commanded Structural Engine Failure", just in case I need to kill the engine at some point. Just to be safe, I will make it a guarded switch.

Yeah, good idea,,, guarded switch will prevent any fast fingers from hitting the switch prematurely and you wouldn't want that!

flion 08-08-2017 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rgbewley (Post 1188847)
Chances are that most of the affected engines are factory or Thunderbolt built engines shipped from November 2016 - February 2017.

If you engine was overhauled/repaired in the field prior to 11/2016, you will not be affected.

From my shop if your engine was overhauled/repaired between 11/2016 and 2/2017, you most likely will not be affected as the shop we use for these repairs almost exclusively uses Superior rod bushings, except for parts under EASA regulations. But, if you have a question, feel free to drop me an email.

I just wanted to make a shout-out for Rhonda; I found out about the SB, dug out my paperwork and saw I was in the timeframe. Since the connecting rods on my engine were done by another shop, I didn't have part numbers so I emailed Rhonda last night just to be sure. This morning while I'm eating breakfast her reply arrived, with the Superior part numbers used for my build. So, she got the email this morning, researched the build, and got back to me before I even got my tail in gear. That's fast! Just another reason I'm glad I had my engine built at BPE.

Dustyone 08-09-2017 06:21 AM

AWB 85-020 Issue 2 ? 9 August 2017
 
Meanwhile ,down in Australia....

AWB 85-020 Issue 2 ? 9 August 2017

https://www.casa.gov.au/file/187126/...token=itziGCHn

RV6_flyer 08-09-2017 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dustyone (Post 1194597)
Meanwhile ,down in Australia....

AWB 85-020 Issue 2 ? 9 August 2017

https://www.casa.gov.au/file/187126/...token=itziGCHn

Not sure I understand why Australian Civil Aviation Safety Authority listed Group 1 Factory Engines during 2011 calendar year. From reading the Lycoming SB, the bad parts started late 2015.

Copy / Paste Lycoming SB632B: "If your engine was overhauled or repaired on or after November 18, 2015,"

airguy 08-09-2017 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RV6_flyer (Post 1194611)
Not sure I understand why Australian Civil Aviation Safety Authority listed Group 1 Factory Engines during 2011 calendar year. From reading the Lycoming SB, the bad parts started late 2015.

Copy / Paste Lycoming SB632B: "If your engine was overhauled or repaired on or after November 18, 2015,"

As several have speculated, it appears this problem may be a bit more widespread than the Lycoming SB indicates.

rgbewley 08-09-2017 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillL (Post 1189093)
Rhonda, so what is (your opinion) the design issue? Are the Lyc bushings just dimensionally poor or is the bushing material too soft and they are yielding and losing preload?

Sorry for all the questions, but one more - are the bushings installed with rod and bushing cold and pressed, hot, or light pressed then internally burnished to expand and reamed to final dimension?

Sorry for the delay in response - still getting back in the swing after Oshkosh. I'm not privy to information as to whether it is a manufacturing issue or a material/design issue.

My initial thoughts were that the OD of the bushings was simply out of spec and it got missed in QA, or maybe that they weren't properly installed in the factory engines, but that doesn't make sense as Lycoming also quarantined lots of bushings sent out for field overhaul of rods.

The bushings are installed at room temp, pressed in then burnished and machined or rolled to final dimensions. I believe that ASSI rolls theirs to final dims.

rgbewley 08-09-2017 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickSolana (Post 1193602)
Well, my brand new engine is on the list. 80 hours, flying since March. After reading Mike Busch's comments, I am thinking I should take this plane to a really good repair facility and not just a local A&P.

Can anyone recommend a good repair shop to me? I am in Virginia, but am willing to fly it to a shop that is further away. In the end, i want to be flying an engine that I trust has been reassembled well. Some names I have come up with so far are Penn Yan, Zephyr, Triad, Aero Performance in PA. Does Aviall do repairs or just parts? Does Lycoming do engine repairs at their shop? What about Barrett's, Aerosport power, Superior, etc. You can tell I don't know anything about these shops!

Thanks for the help,

Rick Solana
RV-10
N804RS

Hi Rick:

We can complete the work for you and apply for the warranty through our Lycoming distributor if you like. I don't know if Lycoming will pay freight to and from me though. Worth checking on. Please feel free to contact me directly if you need assistance. 918-835-1089

jwilbur 08-10-2017 12:22 PM

FAA released AD
 
FAA releasing AD for "all" listed engines.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-insp...2017-16968.pdf

DanH 08-10-2017 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rgbewley (Post 1194625)
Sorry for the delay in response - still getting back in the swing after Oshkosh. I'm not privy to information as to whether it is a manufacturing issue or a material/design issue.

My initial thoughts were that the OD of the bushings was simply out of spec and it got missed in QA, or maybe that they weren't properly installed in the factory engines, but that doesn't make sense as Lycoming also quarantined lots of bushings sent out for field overhaul of rods.

See the CASA link previously posted #61. Interesting reading, entirely correct or not.

BTW, for those who don't bother checking the suction screen at every oil change, Section 5 is worth a look.

BillL 08-10-2017 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rgbewley (Post 1194625)
Sorry for the delay in response - still getting back in the swing after Oshkosh. I'm not privy to information as to whether it is a manufacturing issue or a material/design issue.

My initial thoughts were that the OD of the bushings was simply out of spec and it got missed in QA, or maybe that they weren't properly installed in the factory engines, but that doesn't make sense as Lycoming also quarantined lots of bushings sent out for field overhaul of rods.

The bushings are installed at room temp, pressed in then burnished and machined or rolled to final dimensions. I believe that ASSI rolls theirs to final dims.

Rhonda, Thanks for a precise reply. That helps, If the busing was pressed and machined, I could see how the large gap might might have yielded less than 100% contact, but if it is roller burnished the expansion in place would press it to the rod wall. The CASA report shows an failure that I am not familiar with, it appears that small pieces are fatigued and broken off, resulting in a cocking load on the con-rod. Thinner walls are more difficult to retain installation press fits.

Dave Bernard 08-12-2017 10:40 PM

I bought an experimental O-360 through Vans about a year ago and it's on the list... about 50 hours on my engine now with no problems.

The odd thing is, I only found out about this from an A&P friend during casual conversation. Lycoming knows I have an engine on the list, shouldn't I have heard of this through them, like a serious-looking envelope in the mail or something?

What is the normal channel for an engine owner to be notified of a time sensitive SB?

Tim Lewis 08-14-2017 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Bernard (Post 1195699)
What is the normal channel for an engine owner to be notified of a time sensitive SB?

In prior years, the owner who wanted to stay informed could buy a set of service letters/service instructions/service bulletins (SL/SI/SB) from Lycoming, and subscribe to annual Lycoming updates for a fee (about $50/year). Envelopes from Lycoming would show up in the mail every month or so with the latest documents. Starting this year, Lycoming stopped that service. You can now go to http://www.lycoming.com/contact/know...e/publications and see the latest publications, and sign up for notification of when publications are released/updated.

If you want a full set of publications (including hundreds of documents not shown on Lycoming's web site), Lycoming points you to a couple of vendors who sell electronic subscriptions for several hundred dollars per year.

Sandrews 08-15-2017 09:44 AM

I have a new Lycoming engine from Vans that is currently being built. Would I be correct to assume that my new currently being produced engine will not be affected?

vic syracuse 08-15-2017 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandrews (Post 1196450)
I have a new Lycoming engine from Vans that is currently being built. Would I be correct to assume that my new currently being produced engine will not be affected?

I would think that is a safe bet. I have a Lycoming Thunderbolt that didn't make the list by about 2 weeks.

Vic

TimO 08-15-2017 03:05 PM

No IO-390's affected
 
Interestingly, I just got off the phone with Lycoming because although my engine was shipped 12/2014, I still had the curiosity on the IO-390 being affected...it's not on the lists.

They told me that the IO-390 production never received any of the questionable parts, so the IO-390 is not affected.

I find it a bit strange because on some forum somewhere I did see that someone said that they had to have their IO-390 torn down for the SB. I don't know if they did that "just in case" or what, but according to Lycoming today, no IO-390 is affected at all. Strange but true or so I'm told.

Caummisar 08-17-2017 10:16 AM

I'm Affected --- My Experience.....So Far
 
I purchased a YIO-360-M1B last fall from Vans. Last night I got an email from Vans saying they believed I received an engine from Lycoming that is included in SB-632-b. Attached was a link to the SB ( https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/SB632B%20Connecting%20Rod%20Identification.pdf )

I went to Table 1 in the SB and my EXACT engine model and serial number is listed on page 15. Following the instructions included in Van's email, I called Van's this morning. Lycoming indicates Vans is an "Authorized Distributor" and I should work through them.

Van's collected my information and is making arrangements to have the engine shipped back to Lycoming. Vans indicates the next step is to get authorization to return the engine and request a shipping crate. Shipping to be covered both ways. Vans says I'm the second builder they have worked with on this and that they are still learning the Lycoming process.

The engine has just barely been hung. I've made most of the connections and was starting to fit the cowl. Its never been started. Talk about taking the wind out of the building sails.

I'm taking this as just another hurdle to get over. :( First there was the recall for my heated Dynon pitot tube. Then the SB 14-01-31 for the inspection/repair of potential cracks the horizontal stab. It's all part of the build. I could have been worse....i.e. the big fan stopped with an off field landing. Maybe I should blame the Uncontrolled Airspace Podcast. I was listening to them talk about the SB in the shop right before I got the email. They Jinxed me. NOT!! :eek:

mdaniell 08-18-2017 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dustyone (Post 1194597)
Meanwhile ,down in Australia....

AWB 85-020 Issue 2 ? 9 August 2017

https://www.casa.gov.au/file/187126/...token=itziGCHn

I gather you need to have CASA login to use Ashley's link to this article, however I found another link which seems to be the latest version if any of you are interested. It also refers to engines around 2011.

https://casa.govcms.gov.au/files/awb...premature-wear

ShookieRV7A 08-18-2017 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boom3 (Post 1188827)
Big bummer. I'm always amazed when something like this comes up as the engines really haven't changed since the 50's.

Have they ever been perfect or does one SB eventually just create another down the road after material and or procedures change? I'm guessing it is always work in progress after looking at the 74 pages of Service Bulletins Letters and Instructions.

Wow, tough business...

Looks like it was a sub-contrator supplier problem...

"Lycoming has determined that a small percentage of the bushings manufactured by a sub-supplier during a specific time period were diametrically undersized, resulting in a tightness of fit below factory accepted tolerances.These non-conforming bushings may have a substantially lower push-in/pull-out force than conforming bushings and may be susceptible to unseating during normal engine operations."

ctennis 08-24-2017 07:48 AM

Replaced two connecting rods. Send everything back to the distributor including a detailed invoice for just over $3300. Let's see how smoothly my warranty refund goes.

The good news is airplane flew today for the first time with no issues.

What actually amazed me most was the fact that, in doing the inspection, Lycoming wanted the stamped lot number and serial number off of all of the installed connecting rods. However, the replacement rods I got have absolutely no lot or serial number on them. The SB even says this may be the case. What kind of quality control is this??

bruceflys 08-24-2017 09:52 AM

All Six Good
 
New YIO-540-D4A5, SN EL-36630-48E, bought through Van's, built July 2016, completely mounted, but not run on a RV-10 project. Connecting rods LW-11750 S from lots K476, K477, and K480. A&P, IA did the work in my shop. Bushings were tight on all six rods. Online survey completed.

Now the time has come to submit a warranty claim. Anyone know what shop rate Lycoming will reimburse? Will it pay for the tool and gasket kit?

I agree with ctennis that anonymous parts without identifying numbers is poor practice. How will anyone know if the parts are genuine? This disassembly was my first look into the guts of an engine and I was surprised the other way. It seemed everything, including components as small as a piston pin cap, had markings.

rv7boy 08-30-2017 01:17 PM

Mike Busch has an interesting blog entry about this SB/AD situation. Whether or not you like him, he has an interesting insight into how this AD developed.

DanH 08-30-2017 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rv7boy (Post 1200323)
Mike Busch has an interesting blog entry about this SB/AD situation. Whether or not you like him, he has an interesting insight into how this AD developed.

The linked article about cylinder base and connecting rod bolt preload is worth reading. The short studs in particular offer some risk:

https://www.savvyaviation.com/wp-con...-be-afraid.pdf


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