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-   -   Replacing Engine Fuel Pump (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=15148)

deek 07-07-2013 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSD755 (Post 784363)
I am a new RV8 owner and this is my first post. I want to say thanks for all the valuable insight that is posted here, it has saved me a huge amount of frustration trying to reinvent the wheel. I recently had to replace the engine driven fuel pump (0 360). What a miserable job, poor access and a masterpiece of poor design.
I want to single out Kcameron for thanks for the tip on using waxed lacing cord to hold the drive shaft up while starting the hex bolts, it worked when all the other tricks failed. If you ever need to do this nasty job try this tip first and save time and hide on your arms.

Many thanks John Deaton

Unfortunately, I've had to do this nasty task twice; once on each LongEZ I've built. I use an old green cylinder base O-ring instead of the waxed lace as KCameron did - but essentially the same idea. The O-rings are manufactured out of really strong and stretchy rubber and you simply stretch it to fit on something higher on the accessory case, and then remove it at the last minute. Removing the left mag helps (especially in safety wiring) but then you've got extra work to do.

deek

judoka5051 07-11-2013 07:39 PM

15 minute fuel pump install
 
Hey Gang,

Here's how I installed the fuel pump in 15 minutes (engine on the plane). First of all, my engine came with a plate over the hole, so the bolts were the wrong length. I decided to use studs instead of bolts to help guide the pump on. So, I put permatex on the studs and installed them, then slid the gasket into place. Now comes the 'trick' I read on this thread bout using waxed string but I don't have any so I used a piece of 20g wire tied into a loop. I hooked the end of the plunger rod then hooked the other end to a ball bungee and clamped it to the top of the engine under tension. Now I reached in the hole and pushed the rod up and it stayed put. With the studs, there was just enough tilt down to get the pump in (with the arm clear) and start the nuts. I tightened them some, leaving just enough room to cut the wire and pull it out. Then I tightened it the rest of the way. It took me longer to type this that to do the install! I read all the depressing stories and studied the advice, and used some of it to make the job easier, so thanks to those of you who posted previously. I hope this helps.

Lance

Fred.Stucklen 08-24-2015 08:26 PM

fuel pump install
 
I have to thank all those whom did this job and posting their problems and results on this list. It helped me to easily do this repair.

I have an IO-360 on and RV-7A. I was seeing intermittent low pressure warnings, with the fuel pressures dipping randomly below 20 PSI (normal is 25-30 psi). Ground test resulting in fuel flows of 30 GPH using the AUX pump, so it wasn't a restriction. Running the engine at lower RPM's and leaned appeared to lessen the issue, but didn't completely eliminate it. Also, when fuel pressures dropped, with the engine leaned way back (two PMAGs allows this) RPMs would fall off with low fuel pressure, indicating it wasn't a sensor error, but a real low fuel pressure (and injector flow) issue.

So I ordered a new pump and a shroud and installed them today. Removing the old pump required me to remove the left P-MAG and some other hoses that were restricting access to the pump. The shroud from Spruce did not have to be modified as long as all the fittings were put onto the pump while it was on the bench.

I tried using the grease trick to hold the actuator in the UP position, but, in the Florida heat, it didn't work out. Instead I looped .020 safety wire around the actuator and had a helper put tension on it after pushing the actuator into the UP position. After installing a new gasket with a sealant onto the accessory case, I was able to insert the pump into position and, by hand, get both cap screws started, and turned then further in with a 5/16" ball Allen wrench. Before snugging up the cap screws the .020" safety wire was pulled out. The cap screw safety wiring job was tricky, but given the access with the left P-MAG removed, went smoothly. Then all the fuel lines were again connected.

To test the pump functionality, I removed the lower four spark plugs and turned the engine over with the starter, resulting in 29-32 PSI fuel pressure indications. I then reinstalled and timed the left P-MAG, and connected the other hoses I had disconnected. There were no oil leaks after running the engine...

I did not use a sealant on the cap screws, so will be looking for any oil leaks in that area.

I hope this write up helps others too.....

Randy 12-18-2015 04:00 AM

Fred,

I have had intermittent low fuel pressure warnings haunting me for months. In the process of chasing it down I have replaced all of my fuel system components, eliminating many restrictive fittings etc. I thought I had the problem solved when I replaced the Kavilco sending unit and then could not re produce the problem. Months later it is back again.

Mechanical pump experts tell me the pump cannot fail on an intermittent basis but your experience seems to indicate otherwise.

Did the new mechanical pump solve the issue for you?

Anybody else have experience with intermittent low fuel pressure due to faulty mechanical fuel pump?

Charting fuel pressure after the events shows the pressure would drop down to around 13 PSI from the normal 25 PSI. My engine has never run rough during these events but that may be because I was quick to turn on the electric backup when I get the warnings, (Dynon System).

I may install a backup mechanical gauge to have a way to verify the pressure is actually falling. Precision Aeromotive tells me that the engine may actually keep running OK in cruise conditions with the low fuel pressure I have experienced due to the way the servo adjusts to different pressures. This makes it difficult to verify the pressure reduction is real...

Randall in Sedona

RV7A, IO-375, WW RV200

Kent Ashton 12-18-2015 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy (Post 1038280)
I have had intermittent low fuel pressure warnings haunting me for months.

From experience, low and erratic fuel pressure indications may be caused by ground loops. A ground loop comes from having the sender and the instrument grounded at different points. The small difference in ground potential between the two points will cause all kinds of spurious indications in a sensitive gauge. You might look at that.

Sam Buchanan 12-18-2015 07:22 AM

Quote:

Mechanical pump experts tell me the pump cannot fail on an intermittent basis but your experience seems to indicate otherwise.
I had a low pressure mechanical pump (O-320, carb) that definitely failed on an intermittent basis. Engine would lose power and immediately regain it when the electric boost pump was turned on. This was in cool temps with 100LL.

tc1234c 01-27-2016 02:30 PM

Thank you all for the tips
 
Just replaced the mechanical fuel pump using the safety wire trick. It was quite easy to get the pump on and bolts installed. As suggested before I used a loop of safety wire connected to a bungee cord. After looping the safety wire around the plunger I hooked the bungee cord and created a tension. Pushing the plunger up and it stayed. The first time I installed the pump and had the bolts almost in before taking it out. Using the mirror and later my finger I confirmed that the plunger did not drop. It was just to verify for myself that it is working. Second time I pulled the safety wire out before it got pinched by the pump. I did not have to take mag or anything else out to safety the bolts. I did have to move around the engine to tighten the bolts.

It is raining and I have not run my engine yet so I can not report the outcome. My 1,800 hr fuel pump (O-320, carb) intermittently drop pressure to 0.1 psi. It also start leaking oil. Even after I tightened all screws it still leak a few drops (shown on my nose wheel pant) each time I fly.

Without reading the experiences from others on the forum I would not have known what to do. Now, I have a new fuel pump on the engine and my arms are not even scratched. It all because I read the forum!

flyboy1963 01-27-2016 02:48 PM

fuel pressure vs flow
 
can I ask a newbie question? there are a few references in this thread that are about mechanical, low pressure, hi-pressure pumps....so bear with me.
My mechanical pump is about 120 hrs old, but 10 years of age.
the fuel flow was good when tested in the climb attitude, but the pressure on the van's gauge is often in the 1psi range, if the scale is to be believed. Never had an operational problem, so is it safe to assume all is well? volume being more important than pressure, in a carb?
also, I thought something was strange, as there was always a drop of oil on the pump lower case bolt heads. Apparently, not that unusual for a little to seep thru the studs? the gasket seems dry, as far as I can see.

tc1234c 01-28-2016 09:53 AM

I learned from this:

http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...ad.php?t=74719

petehowell 07-11-2016 06:37 AM

Laugher.....
 
I replaced my pump over the weekend - wow what a diff a few years and a few tricks make. When Alex and I did this back in the day, there was swearing and blood. On Friday using bundling lace to hold the plunger up, and an unregistered, sawed-off, 5/16 ball-tipped hex driver, I had the pump on and safety wired in 35 min, and I stink at safety wiring anything.

Don't fear da pump!

RV7A Flyer 09-03-2016 09:56 PM

I assume there's no Lycoming SI for how to replace the pump (which I am thinking I may have to do...been seeing increasing deviations in fuel pressure, with the occasional drop over a few seconds to ~14-15 PSI and then back up, over about 8-10 seconds).

I'll probably add the cooling shroud, although I have a blast tube aimed at it now.

But, my real question here...what sort of sealant is recommended, if any, for the gasket and/or the bolts?

catmandu 11-27-2017 07:54 AM

Another thank you for all the tips!
 
I had suspicions about the low pressure mechanical fuel pump on my carbed O-320 that is 40 years and 1300 hours old. No indication in the logs it had ever been replaced. So I got a new replacement and blocked off a full day. I used a full length ball end hex tool, Hylomar M to seal the gasket, teflon thread sealant on the bolts, fuel lube on the fittings. Made sure the cam was in the proper position, installed the inboard bolt one turn, and was able to tilt the lever arm on the pump under the cam driven piston, no securing tricks required. Then I installed the outboard bolt one turn, and confirmed proper installation by mating the pump to the case easily by hand. Torqued and safety wired the bolts. Full power ground run, no leaking oil or fuel. Two leisurely hours.

What to do with the rest of the day? :)

krw5927 11-27-2017 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catmandu (Post 1221561)
I used a full length ball end hex tool, Hylomar M to seal the gasket, teflon tape on the bolts, fuel lube on the fittings.
What to do with the rest of the day? :)

The holes for these bolts go completely through to the interior of the accessory case. Teflon tape in general has been discussed a lot on here and generally concluded to be a huge no-no on aircraft. Any danger here of strings of the tape breaking off and doing harm in the oil system or any accessories?

catmandu 11-27-2017 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krw5927 (Post 1221566)
The holes for these bolts go completely through to the interior of the accessory case. Teflon tape in general has been discussed a lot on here and generally concluded to be a huge no-no on aircraft. Any danger here of strings of the tape breaking off and doing harm in the oil system or any accessories?

Nice catch, thanks for watching out for me. My fingers got ahead of my brain, tape was not used, I edited my post

Jab 12-23-2017 05:47 PM

Hi all

I have an O320 in a RV4 and had a fuel pressure drop in a full power climb, which caused the engine to lose power until I turned the electric pump on and went back to the airport. The engine would run ok at lower power settings but not at full power.

Pulled the pump off and found two hard ?granules? of some crumbly substance which were obstructing the diaphragms, holding them open. One granule in each diaphragm. Weird! After thoroughly cleaning the pump and gascolator I reinstalled it.

I had not found this thread so I had to figure this out myself and surprisingly, it worked quite well. I put the bolts through the housing and held the pump in place, ensuring the arm was in the correct position. I found if I tilted the pump clockwise, I could get the left bolt in easily and tightened it up, only enough to keep the flange faces aligned but the pump could still be rotated. I then pushed up on the right side, rotating the pump against the spring pressure on the arm to get the right side bolt hole to line up. It took a couple of tries to get the threads to take but once they did it was easy. Did a run up and had a firm 5 psi, leak checked everything and then did a test flight over the airport. Great fuel pressure at low power but at full power it would drop to about 1 psi, no faltering of the engine though.

However, after reading the threads here, I am concerned about what I did. If overhaul kits are no longer sold because a jig is needed to set the diaphragm pressure, there is no guarantee that my reassembly was correct. I plan to replace the fuel pump anyway since it?s old but it would be nice to fly until I get the new one. I would welcome your opinions.

Merry Christmas,
Gary

Sam Buchanan 12-23-2017 08:43 PM

Ground your plane until the pump is replaced. Aircraft Spruce can put a pump in your hands a couple of days after Christmas.

YellowJacket RV9 12-23-2017 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jab (Post 1227465)
Hi all

I have an O320 in a RV4 and had a fuel pressure drop in a full power climb, which caused the engine to lose power until I turned the electric pump on and went back to the airport. The engine would run ok at lower power settings but not at full power.

Pulled the pump off and found two hard ?granules? of some crumbly substance which were obstructing the diaphragms, holding them open. One granule in each diaphragm. Weird! After thoroughly cleaning the pump and gascolator I reinstalled it.

I had not found this thread so I had to figure this out myself and surprisingly, it worked quite well. I put the bolts through the housing and held the pump in place, ensuring the arm was in the correct position. I found if I tilted the pump clockwise, I could get the left bolt in easily and tightened it up, only enough to keep the flange faces aligned but the pump could still be rotated. I then pushed up on the right side, rotating the pump against the spring pressure on the arm to get the right side bolt hole to line up. It took a couple of tries to get the threads to take but once they did it was easy. Did a run up and had a firm 5 psi, leak checked everything and then did a test flight over the airport. Great fuel pressure at low power but at full power it would drop to about 1 psi, no faltering of the engine though.

However, after reading the threads here, I am concerned about what I did. If overhaul kits are no longer sold because a jig is needed to set the diaphragm pressure, there is no guarantee that my reassembly was correct. I plan to replace the fuel pump anyway since it?s old but it would be nice to fly until I get the new one. I would welcome your opinions.

Merry Christmas,
Gary

For those times where you'd rather not wait or pay shipping, try calling Aeromech @ KLAL, http://aeromech-inc.com/ - they seem to stock a lot of stuff and several times I have made a 5 minute flight over there to buy an odd size bolt or some other small part. I'd recommend you not fly until replacing the fuel pump, but it's still a pretty quick drive from Tampa.

Chris

skyking902001 08-08-2018 03:07 PM

After a flight last week, I noticed a drip from the fuel pump overflow. It appeared to have leaked enough to leave a small streak on the lower fuselage, although I never had any indication of a fuel pressure fluctuation. After reading this thread, I could hardly wait to replace the pump (NOT). I picked up a new pump at Air Power in Arlington. I removed the cowling and set about removing the old pump. Access is rather limited, so I removed the scat tubing for the cabin heat and removed the lower line from the oil cooler. I removed the pump overflow tube and the fuel lines from the pump. I zip tied all of these lines to various places on the engine mount--this helped free up some space. I cut the safety wire and removed the bolts. I found that a ball end hex tool was the only way I could get on the bolts. So, old pump off, then cleaned off the old gasket material from the engine with a scraper and some disc brake cleaner. At this point, I called it a day. The next day, I ran some string around the rod that operates the arm on the pump and clamped the free ends to the plate where my GPS antenna is mounted. I held my finger on the rod and slowly rotated the prop until the rod was fully retracted. Looks like the string will hold it in place. I used the old pump as a test to determine how best to position it for the installation. After I was satisfied I had found an acceptable method, I proceeded with the new pump. I coated a new gasket with permatex #2 and stuck it on the pump. I also coated the bolt threads with permatex thread sealer. I inserted the pump and rotated it about 30 degrees counter clockwise. This allowed the arm to fit under the plunger and the inboard bolt to engage. I gave it about 3 turns. For the outboard bolt, the pump has to be rotated clockwise to line up the bolt hole. This was the difficult part because the plunger rod must slightly depress the arm on the pump--and that arm has one stout spring! After several tries, I got the bolt started. I pushed the pump flush against the engine to ensure the arm was under the push rod, then tightened up the bolts until there was less than a 1/4" gap between the pump and engine. I pulled the string out and finished tightening the bolts. The safety wire wasn't much fun either, but I got it done. Re-attached all lines. Ready to test run and check for leaks, but now it's raining--will do it tomorrow. I spent about 4 hours on this project--I stand in awe of the gents that did this fun task in 15 minutes and 35 minutes. Thanks to all for the tips found on this thread!

JonJay 08-08-2018 07:22 PM

Good job. I think a few hours invested well. Future ones will go a bit quicker but hopefully you won't have to find out!

revenson 02-18-2019 09:02 AM

Good ideas in this thread!
This was my second time installing the fuel pump. First time I needed to remove a pump cooling shroud that had a broken installation tab.

This time I called Tempest to confirm there aren't any new ones without the dreaded housing interference issue. Of course, no company has gone thru the pain of a new design and faa pma process.

This time I used his suggestion to be confident the pump arm is installed correctly...that is, remove the left mag, then one can see the pin. Rotate prop to up position, temporarily secure the pin in up position from inside the mag opening, and proceed to wrestle the pump and those **** hex bolts.

Worked much better this time after shortening a 5/16" hex wrench, but most importantly, I'm confident of the positioning.

Hartstoc 02-18-2019 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexPeterson (Post 104637)
Is it just me, or are these engine mounted fuel pumps a real PITA to install? I have rotated the engine until the plunger is as far up as it goes. I can get the pump in all the way, as long as it is tilted a little bit. So far, so good. The problem arises when I try to get the socket head cap screw started. Because of interference between the screw head and the pump casting, I'm not able to get it properly aligned for starting the threads. The only way to get alignment of the screw is to pull back the fuel pump a little, which causes the lever to pop up above the plunger. AARRGG.

Any tricks would be appreciated. I have glued the gasket to the pump, so that "trick" is already used.

Thanks!

Mine was mounted with cap screws with allen-wrench socket- heads, and they are drilled for safety wire. I?ve permanently removed my engine driven pump so no longer need them and would be happy to mail them to you unless you have solved the problem by now. Just have to make sure I can get shorter bolts that will work to secure the cover I?m bolting onto the mount pad.- Otis

scsmith 07-15-2020 08:28 PM

This is a great thread - we need to keep it alive for those that come after us.

I still have not won this battle yet. I went out and tried the grease trick with the stickiest grease I could find. No joy. Doesn't help that it is 95F here. Maybe if it were colder.

Anyway, the waxed string/safety wire trick is brilliant. I will do that tomorrow.

It would make life much easier to shorten the screws, BUT the amount of thread engagement into the case would be potentially inadequate. It might be fine to take 3/16" off the screws, but it might not. I won't do it.

Knowing that you can see in through the left mag hole is encouraging. It means I have to re-time my Light Speed hall sensor afterward, but that is a small price to pay to be SURE the lever is properly engaged on the plunger.

N184DA 07-15-2020 08:43 PM

Having that left mag removed also allows you to route the string through the mag access, rather than slipping it between the pump and flange.

The way I did it was to basically tie the string off at one of the engine mount tubes, nice and tight, through the mag hole. Left it that way until the pump was in and the bolts were tight.

And you are correct, having the mag out is a small price to pay for knowing that the pump arm/pin are seated correctly.
And as an added bonus, makes the safety wire a little easier to install.

scsmith 07-15-2020 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N184DA (Post 1446774)
Having that left mag removed also allows you to route the string through the mag access, rather than slipping it between the pump and flange.

The way I did it was to basically tie the string off at one of the engine mount tubes, nice and tight, through the mag hole. Left it that way until the pump was in and the bolts were tight.

And you are correct, having the mag out is a small price to pay for knowing that the pump arm/pin are seated correctly.
And as an added bonus, makes the safety wire a little easier to install.

Another time when I wish the forum had a 'like' button. Thanks.

digidocs 07-16-2020 01:25 PM

I talked to Tempest about installing the pump and they claim that you can actually reach in the L mag hole and hold the plunger up with your hand (where it contacts the camshaft). Not verified, but a good source...

N184DA 07-16-2020 01:29 PM

That is true,,
But I found I needed both hands to manipulate the pump, to orient the holes,, and to start the bolts that do not align when the pump is square on the mounting flange.

scsmith 07-16-2020 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by digidocs (Post 1446930)
I talked to Tempest about installing the pump and they claim that you can actually reach in the L mag hole and hold the plunger up with your hand (where it contacts the camshaft). Not verified, but a good source...

A great tip for those three-armed mechanics.:rolleyes:

WAustin 07-17-2020 05:43 PM

Engine Fuel Pump Replacement Hints
 
Hi All

This was sent to members of our chapter of the Sports Aircraft Association of Australia (SAAA). I didnt go through all seven pages of replies, so maybe this has already been posted.

Link is to another forum that has hints on replacing the engine driven fuel pump.

Here it is: https://www.matronics.com/forums/vie...php?t=16775207

Hope that helps someone.

Cheers

Wayne

BruceW 09-01-2020 12:22 PM

Used the safety wire trick for keeping the plunger up. Got it on the second try. Really had to tension the wire to keep the plunger up.
Great use of this forum.
Thanks to all.

gasman 09-01-2020 10:11 PM

Better off to use regular string instead of wire. String has way more drag and will hold the plunger in place with far less pressure.

scsmith 09-01-2020 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gasman (Post 1459214)
Better off to use regular string instead of wire. String has way more drag and will hold the plunger in place with far less pressure.

It turned out that the opposite was true for me. I tried dental floss first. No amount of force would hold the plunger up. Then I switched to safety wire and it worked quite easily.

Captain Avgas 09-02-2020 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scsmith (Post 1459218)
It turned out that the opposite was true for me. I tried dental floss first. No amount of force would hold the plunger up. Then I switched to safety wire and it worked quite easily.

How many times did you go around the plunger with he dental floss....and was it a very broad ribbon dental floss. I would think that waxed electrical cord wrapped around a few times would do the trick and intuitively you'd think it would have more friction that safety wire.

scsmith 09-02-2020 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Avgas (Post 1459222)
How many times did you go around the plunger with he dental floss....and was it a very broad ribbon dental floss. I would think that waxed electrical cord wrapped around a few times would do the trick and intuitively you'd think it would have more friction that safety wire.

I didn't try to wrap all the way around in either case. You are probably right that a full wrap would grip fine. I just put a half wrap on it with both tails coming up to a engine mount tube.

Fred.Stucklen 09-09-2020 05:58 PM

Fuel pump bolt oil leak
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred.Stucklen (Post 1008660)
I have to thank all those whom did this job and posting their problems and results on this list. It helped me to easily do this repair.

I have an IO-360 on and RV-7A. I was seeing intermittent low pressure warnings, with the fuel pressures dipping randomly below 20 PSI (normal is 25-30 psi). Ground test resulting in fuel flows of 30 GPH using the AUX pump, so it wasn't a restriction. Running the engine at lower RPM's and leaned appeared to lessen the issue, but didn't completely eliminate it. Also, when fuel pressures dropped, with the engine leaned way back (two PMAGs allows this) RPMs would fall off with low fuel pressure, indicating it wasn't a sensor error, but a real low fuel pressure (and injector flow) issue.

So I ordered a new pump and a shroud and installed them today. Removing the old pump required me to remove the left P-MAG and some other hoses that were restricting access to the pump. The shroud from Spruce did not have to be modified as long as all the fittings were put onto the pump while it was on the bench.

I tried using the grease trick to hold the actuator in the UP position, but, in the Florida heat, it didn't work out. Instead I looped .020 safety wire around the actuator and had a helper put tension on it after pushing the actuator into the UP position. After installing a new gasket with a sealant onto the accessory case, I was able to insert the pump into position and, by hand, get both cap screws started, and turned then further in with a 5/16" ball Allen wrench. Before snugging up the cap screws the .020" safety wire was pulled out. The cap screw safety wiring job was tricky, but given the access with the left P-MAG removed, went smoothly. Then all the fuel lines were again connected.

To test the pump functionality, I removed the lower four spark plugs and turned the engine over with the starter, resulting in 29-32 PSI fuel pressure indications. I then reinstalled and timed the left P-MAG, and connected the other hoses I had disconnected. There were no oil leaks after running the engine...

I did not use a sealant on the cap screws, so will be looking for any oil leaks in that area.

I hope this write up helps others too.....

I've had an oil leak around the mechanical fuel pump since I replaced it a while back. I found out recently that the mounting bolts were supposed to be sealed, which I didn't do back then. So today, I removed the left P-Mag, Fuel hoses to the mechanical pump, and a couple of oil cooler hoses that were in the way, then the mechanical fuel pump (again). It was dripping oil from what looked like seepage from the mounting bolts. The oil was dripping into the area of the front nose gear mounting area, then down the front gear leg fairing and onto the front wheel pant, making it VERY noticeable!

With the left P-Mag out, it was easy to get the fuel pump plunger lifted up (with the prop set approapiately) by using a string in the left Mag hole. I removed the pump, cleaned it and the accessory case (so I could easily see any new oil leaks). I reinstalled the gasket, then re-mounted the fuel pump, but this time with Teflon paste on the bolt treads.

I'm still n the process of getting everything else back together again, and resetting the P-Mag timing. I'm hoping to test run the engine tomorrow....


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