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-   -   Prop vibration solved. (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=145195)

flysrv10 11-29-2019 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by majuro15 (Post 1389660)
I'm having issue with airframe vibration on my newly flying 10 with an Aero Sport 540 and the 375HRT WW prop. I dynamically balanced it from .6 down to .04 but still feel the vibrations while flying at all RPMs. Seems reclocking is another trick to try, as a few folks have recommended it. I don't have to move bushing or anything, but how do folks determine how much to reclock? For reference, I had to add 60 grams to balance the prop. When the engine stops, the same blade is always at 6 oclock, putting the weights at 12 oclock. Should I reclock it by a certain rotation? 45* or 90*?

I rechecked men one bushing clockwise as others had indicated on this subject. You will have to move the index bushing. Don't overthink this.

lr172 11-29-2019 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by majuro15 (Post 1389660)
I'm having issue with airframe vibration on my newly flying 10 with an Aero Sport 540 and the 375HRT WW prop. I dynamically balanced it from .6 down to .04 but still feel the vibrations while flying at all RPMs. Seems reclocking is another trick to try, as a few folks have recommended it. I don't have to move bushing or anything, but how do folks determine how much to reclock? For reference, I had to add 60 grams to balance the prop. When the engine stops, the same blade is always at 6 oclock, putting the weights at 12 oclock. Should I reclock it by a certain rotation? 45* or 90*?

You follow the hartzell recommendation. I can send you the hartzell doc that tells you where/how to reposition the lugs. Send me an email request and I will reply with the doc. I did mine during the engine overhaul.

EDIT: sorry, just realized you don't have a hartzell. However, the same clocking approach would probably work. I would be a bit concerned though as yours is a much lighter prop and may not respond the same way. I have not read of anyone doing this with a WW, so be carefull in following this recommendation.

Larry

Larry DeCamp 11-29-2019 11:55 AM

Another thing to be aware of.
 
A 2 1/4 extension is solid , not a spool. This requires the prop bolt holes to be 30* off from the crank flange holes. Unless the prop is correctly drilled to be compatible with this, you CANNOT align the prop horizontal (colinear) with the crank journal at TDC. My 0320 is totally balanced on engine parts and prop dynamically balanced. It is way better than a Cessna, but not turbine smooth.

Dustyone 11-29-2019 01:12 PM

Hartzell not balanced from new
 
Hi Tim and others with prop vibration,

For over 4 years I lived with a vibration that I came to accept as normal in my RV-10. I had the prop Dynamically balanced 3 times and tried to convince myself it was somehow a little better.

It was not until a persistent front crank seal oil leak convinced me to remove the prop and take it to Suncoast Aero Engines Prop shop here in Australia to have a look at it while I was replacing the crank seal.



I visited the shop while the work was been done and was surprised that my prop was over 40 grams out of static balance and the technician was as surprised as I was ! He commented that it was rare to find a hub that was so far out of balance. It required weights to be added on both axis to get it right.






So going back on the aircraft I also re-clocked as per the instructions listed here and have finally be rewarded will the smoothest ride I have had in my '10.
The highly accurate vibration analyser I have in my aircraft ( sunvisors )are now dead still in cruise instead of the continual flutter I had been used to.
I also Dynamically balanced the prop and engine combo again and it balanced easily.

Very disappointed to find out that it was my new "balanced" Hartzell that was the problem all along but very happy to close this chapter on my RV-10 and call it DONE !

ReidVaitor 12-03-2019 08:46 PM

Hartzell our of balance
 
I just went through this as well. Your photos look exactly like my case. For years I flew with a vibration, it was there from first start on. I had it balanced and was told it was almost perfect... still had a vibration. Finally, like you, we had the prop balanced and required a serious amount of weight to get it right . the plane is so much more smooth now.

erich weaver 12-03-2019 10:43 PM

The previous few posts seem to indicate that somehow a static imbalance was not being detected during dynamic balancing. That doesn?t make any sense to me; I?ve always been led to believe that a dynamic balance replaces and is superior to a static balance. Anybody care to correct this and explain?

Regards
Erich

D Weisgerber 12-04-2019 08:38 AM

So after the static balance do you dynamically balance it? I would think you would have to to make up for imbalance in the spinner and backplates.

Dustyone 12-04-2019 04:59 PM

Hello Erich,

I was also confused as to why the dynamic balance only made minor changes to my vibration .
My thoughts are that the weights were added in both fore/aft hub location and blade location so maybe if I had access to a better prop balancer like the Dyno Vibe pro, I would seen the half order vibration recorded.

(My prop was balanced with backing plates and spinner fitted)

This is an extract from my report,

Suncoast Aero-Props
?Also for your information, Your blades are tracking exceptionally well (1/64?) and the blade angles were spot-on with 13.5? for the low pitch and 30.7? for the high with no variation between the two blades, so there?s no issues there.
The balance weights I added equate to about 50grams of weight, so hopefully after re-clocking the prop 180 and another dynamic balance your vibration should be remedied?.

I would definitely be checking static balance if you have already done a Dynamic balance with no improvement.

ReidVaitor 12-04-2019 06:27 PM

Why static not being picked up in dynamic
 
My guess, last person to do mine knew what he was doing (30 years in dynamic balancing of helo blades) and possibly the one prior to that didn?t. I don?t think it was any more than that. It wasn?t statically balanced after I added a spinner and other parts Hartzell didn?t include initially; it was dynamically not corrected and I thought it was, based on feedback, now it?s done correctly and it?s right.
You are correct dynamically it should pickup an unbalanced static.

Walt 12-04-2019 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReidVaitor (Post 1390702)
My guess, last person to do mine knew what he was doing (30 years in dynamic balancing of helo blades) and possibly the one prior to that didn’t. I don’t think it was any more than that. It wasn’t statically balanced after I added a spinner and other parts Hartzell didn’t include initially; it was dynamically not corrected and I thought it was, based on feedback, now it’s done correctly and it’s right.
You are correct dynamically it should pickup an unbalanced static.

To add to the above I think the equipment used to balance may have something to do with it as well. In my experience with tools, test equipment (and most things in life), you get what you pay for. The vib sensor alone that I use with my MVib II balancer cost more than some entire vib kits. I've also seen folks post balance results that I know are practically impossible to obtain. In 15 yrs of balancing hundreds of airplanes I've never been able to achieve 0 IPS.

Walt 12-05-2019 06:09 AM

So just out of curiosity I contacted Les Dowd at Hartzell which is my go-to guy for propeller technical stuff. Les reviewed this thread and had the following comments. Copied and pasted with his permission:

"I read the thread and want to point out a few things.* 1.* The propeller that was out of static balance is shown in the photos with the spinner aft bulkhead and forward bulkhead installed.* When we do the static balance at the factory, there is no spinner components installed…* 2.* I tend to agree with your comment about balancing equipment and the person using it…* I’ve run into many techs that have minimal amount of understanding of what they’re doing during the dynamic balance.* I’ve done troubleshooting on vibration problems only to discover a tech installed the dynamic balance weights 180 degrees from where they should be…* 3.* Mass can shift slightly with blade angle and after break-in.* A dynamic balance solution at 2400 on the ground at zero airspeed can shift when inflight at 150 kts (mass shifts with blade angle increase).* This can be especially true with composite blades because the “vertical balance” of the blade can be dramatically different at low blade angle vs. high blade angle.

In general, yes, a dynamic balance should account for discrepancies in static balance.* The static balance is done to get you close to the solution.* The dynamic then corrects for the engine-propeller-spinner assembly as a unit and during operation.* The problem with relying on the dynamic balance only is, the solution may require a very large amount of weight, so much so that you would have to “punt” and be forced to do a static balance to get in the ballpark.* In theory, the dynamic is done after all the big components are statically balance already and you are “fine tuning” the solution.

When troubleshooting vibration, I really think you are guessing what the problem is without a spectrum analysis.* When people complain about cabin vibration, I firmly believe the only way to find the source is to have the sensor mounted in the cabin when getting that spectrum

I also wanted to point out that re-indexing a prop is not officially approved, endorsed or encouraged by Hartzell Propeller Inc. *It is one solution to a 1/2 order vibration problem that I’ve found works if all other attempts don’t work. Those that do it are moving into the Experimental category on their own.*"

donaziza 12-05-2019 08:44 PM

Here's my non builder, non mechanic solution that happened to me about 10 years ago. My first RV 8 had an Lycoming O-320/hartzell prop. Had a vibration. Prop balancing didn't do any good. My mechanic was scratching his head, and if memory serves, found the word experimental on the back of the flywheel. (might have been a different word, I can't remember anymore.) Anyway, he temporarily put someone else's flywheel on mine, and said go try it out. "That" was the problem. New flywheel installed.:)

majuro15 12-06-2019 06:41 AM

I understand his comment about not re-indexing the prop meaning pressing out or changing the bushing locations. But my prop and seems like others don't come with instructions on how to index it to begin with. For example, my prop can be bolted on two ways, each 180* from the other. Nothing says put blade 1 at TDC, etc. So I can't see how it could be wrong to turn it on the flange 180* if you don't know which way it's supposed to go anyway!

I reclocked mine last night and have it retorqued. I'll do another dynamic balance Saturday before flying.

This is experimental aviation!

D Weisgerber 12-06-2019 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by majuro15 (Post 1391010)
I understand his comment about not re-indexing the prop meaning pressing out or changing the bushing locations. But my prop and seems like others don't come with instructions on how to index it to begin with. For example, my prop can be bolted on two ways, each 180* from the other. Nothing says put blade 1 at TDC, etc. So I can't see how it could be wrong to turn it on the flange 180* if you don't know which way it's supposed to go anyway!

I reclocked mine last night and have it retorqued. I'll do another dynamic balance Saturday before flying.

This is experimental aviation!

I agree about indexing the prop, a friend of mine is a IA, he said it didn't matter which way I put the prop on, if I had a vibration I shouldn't get rid of I would also recheck mine 180. When you do a dynamic balance is it done at 2700 rpm? I've heard of people doing them at 2500 rpm.

rdrcrmatt 12-06-2019 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by majuro15 (Post 1391010)
I understand his comment about not re-indexing the prop meaning pressing out or changing the bushing locations. But my prop and seems like others don't come with instructions on how to index it to begin with. For example, my prop can be bolted on two ways, each 180* from the other. Nothing says put blade 1 at TDC, etc. So I can't see how it could be wrong to turn it on the flange 180* if you don't know which way it's supposed to go anyway!

I reclocked mine last night and have it retorqued. I'll do another dynamic balance Saturday before flying.

This is experimental aviation!

Quote:

Originally Posted by D Weisgerber (Post 1391016)
I agree about indexing the prop, a friend of mine is a IA, he said it didn't matter which way I put the prop on, if I had a vibration I shouldn't get rid of I would also recheck mine 180. When you do a dynamic balance is it done at 2700 rpm? I've heard of people doing them at 2500 rpm.



Both of you guys are missing a detail here.

The discussion is around moving the prop one set of bolt holes, not 180?. In order to re-clock the prop one set of holes, the bushings need to be pressed out and moved on the crank flange.

Bill Boyd 12-06-2019 04:09 PM

Which I just did - and I'll let you know next year how it works! Decided to get out ahead of the reported vibration issues and move the lugs while building. Wasn't easy using C-clamp but got it accomplished.

I figure if SacSkyRanch has no issues with it, neither do I. A prop is always going to be in line with the crank throws on a pair of cylinders on the 540, it's just a question of which pair, right?

rvanstory 12-07-2019 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Boyd (Post 1391126)
Decided to get out ahead of the reported vibration issues and move the lugs while building.

Though the question was asked several times, I didn't see a definitive answer... should a builder reclock the prop while building like Bill did? I'll be installing mine after 1st of the year and would like to know if re-clocking by one hole up front has the potential to induce a problem as well. Should one wait on fixing a problem ONLY if the problem exists, or is being proactive and doing this during the build advisable since so many people have had the same experience?

rdrcrmatt 12-08-2019 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rvanstory (Post 1391218)
Though the question was asked several times, I didn't see a definitive answer... should a builder reclock the prop while building like Bill did? I'll be installing mine after 1st of the year and would like to know if re-clocking by one hole up front has the potential to induce a problem as well. Should one wait on fixing a problem ONLY if the problem exists, or is being proactive and doing this during the build advisable since so many people have had the same experience?


If I had the option, I would have gotten ahead of it. I'm going to do it next time I pull the prop.


My only question is.. how? On an installed engine. Who rents the tool to press the bushings out and back in? I remember hearing there was a specialized tool. Do I need to replace the bushings? If so, where do I order them from?

Walt 12-08-2019 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Boyd (Post 1391126)
Which I just did - and I'll let you know next year how it works! Decided to get out ahead of the reported vibration issues and move the lugs while building. Wasn't easy using C-clamp but got it accomplished.

I figure if SacSkyRanch has no issues with it, neither do I. A prop is always going to be in line with the crank throws on a pair of cylinders on the 540, it's just a question of which pair, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rvanstory (Post 1391218)
Though the question was asked several times, I didn't see a definitive answer... should a builder reclock the prop while building like Bill did? I'll be installing mine after 1st of the year and would like to know if re-clocking by one hole up front has the potential to induce a problem as well. Should one wait on fixing a problem ONLY if the problem exists, or is being proactive and doing this during the build advisable since so many people have had the same experience?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdrcrmatt (Post 1391429)
If I had the option, I would have gotten ahead of it. I'm going to do it next time I pull the prop.


I don't get it, why would you try to 'fix' something that isn't broke?

I'm pretty sure Sacskyranch hasn't done any real vibration or harmonic testing and there opinion is based on theory, so I would not consider them an authority on propellers.

Hartzell which is likely the most knowledgeable source of information when it comes to prop testing in the world, made the following statement, you can choose to ignore it if you wish, but be aware that ignoring proven test results and instead going with suggestions you heard on the internet has risks.

" I also wanted to point out that re-indexing a prop is not officially approved, endorsed or encouraged by Hartzell Propeller Inc. *It is one solution to a 1/2 order vibration problem that I’ve found works if all other attempts don’t work. Those that do it are moving into the Experimental category on their own.*"

majuro15 12-18-2019 10:19 AM

Update on my prop, I clocked it 180* and re-balanced it to .03 IPS at 2450 RPM again. Starting off the balancing, I was at .2 IPS instead of .6. It only took 17 grams vs over 60 for it to balance out. It's at .01 at idle RPMs now. Flying it has made a noticeable difference. While I still feel a bit of a rumble in the seat, the air frame itself is much smoother and more stable. The tips don't bounce anymore! Oddly, the biggest difference has been the noise level. There was a huge drop in resonance noise in the cabin and it's very welcomed!

I'd definitely recommend clocking as allowed if folks are having issues that a dynamic balance doesn't solve.

lr172 12-18-2019 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rvanstory (Post 1391218)
Though the question was asked several times, I didn't see a definitive answer... should a builder reclock the prop while building like Bill did? I'll be installing mine after 1st of the year and would like to know if re-clocking by one hole up front has the potential to induce a problem as well. Should one wait on fixing a problem ONLY if the problem exists, or is being proactive and doing this during the build advisable since so many people have had the same experience?

I did it when I had the crank on the bench during my overhaul. More than enough positive reports and none negative. The fact that this all started on the advice of a Hartzell tech, made me comfortable that it was the right call. It is unclear if some are vibration free in the stock configuration, as it is based upon personal feel and apparently the vibration is not significant or highly noticeable.

Larry

majuro15 01-13-2020 08:38 AM

Well, update on my post, the vibration hasn't been eliminated. I'm going to spend some time looking for obvious and less than obvious interference with cowl, etc. But I'm leaning back towards a prop issue.


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