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-   -   VP-X not supported on Dynon Skyview HDX (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=143968)

DanH 11-26-2016 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LettersFromFlyoverCountry (Post 1129462)
Look, if you don't like it, don't put it in your plane. But, golly, it gets tiring watching the non-stop judgments of people's decisions with their EXPERIMENTAL airplanes.

Equally tiring to hear "experimental" used to justify purchasing more stuff delivered in a UPS box.

There are no experiments going on here.

Jesse 11-27-2016 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daviid (Post 1129799)
only if you ignore the fact Dynon raised the price of the skyview display by $500 after eliminating the mapping license.

Where did you get this data point? Their prices didn't change on anything. Their new HDX screen was introduced at a slightly higher price point, but their existing products stayed at the same price as they were before, except the mapping became free.

daviid 11-27-2016 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse (Post 1129835)
Where did you get this data point? Their prices didn't change on anything. Their new HDX screen was introduced at a slightly higher price point, but their existing products stayed at the same price as they were before, except the mapping became free.

their website

Snowflake 11-27-2016 09:51 AM

Claude, perhaps another option is available... Can the VPX be controlled with discrete switches as well? ie. could you build a switch panel that had cheap low-voltage switches, that triggered the ECB's in the VPX?

If so, and this would depend on your cockpit configuration of course, maybe you could build a simple switch panel that mounts to the bottom of your instrument panel, with a row of simple switches. That panel would connect with a harness back to your VPX. Then when Dynon adds support for the VPX to the HDX, you could remove the switch panel and reconnect the VPX to the HDX. The rest of your electrical system could then stay untouched downstream of the VPX.

pw3633@yahoo.com 11-27-2016 10:46 AM

VP-X not YET supported on Dynon Skyview HDX
 
I have the Dynon Skyview Touch 10" display and the VP-X in my 7A. The combination has worked well and I routinely review the status of all of the circuits on the Dynon display during run-up and in flight. Because this functionality is currently unavailable in the new HDX system I would not upgrade my screens.

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...lWTksyVXNabGh3

dynonsupport 11-27-2016 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake (Post 1129881)
Claude, perhaps another option is available... Can the VPX be controlled with discrete switches as well? ie. could you build a switch panel that had cheap low-voltage switches, that triggered the ECB's in the VPX?

Rob, this is exactly how the VPX works in every case. You are supposed to wire up panel switches for things you turn on and off. The display on an EFIS is mainly of currents and faults for each channel, and an emergency backup to a broken switch.

dynonsupport 11-27-2016 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daviid (Post 1129854)
only if you ignore the fact Dynon raised the price of the skyview display by $500 after eliminating the mapping license.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daviid (Post 1129854)
their website

Daviid,
Can you point out where on the website this is so we can fix it? When the 10" SkyView came out in 2009, it was $3,510 for the screen and $500 for a mapping license (one per airplane). This is still listed as $3,510 on our website everywhere I can find it (SkyView Classic).

Flying Canuck 11-27-2016 11:16 AM

I think I've come up with another option. I have a background in software development and a while back I built my own backup EFIS complete with GADAHRS using an Arduino for sensors and a Raspberry Pi 3 with a 7" touch screen as the front end. I wrote the user interface in Python and it all tested out great on the bench. However, I elected to not implement it and went with an AVMAP Ultra as my backup EFIS. So, here's the idea. The VP-X developer interface is documented and the SkyView serial output formats are documented. I could develop something on the Pi/Arduino that would give me full control of the VP-X, passing the required data from the SkyView (IAS, GS and RPM) back up to the VP-X. Just a matter of finding space in my panel for the screen. Just spitballing at this point but if I can get this to work, then I can keep all of my toys. Would give me something to do on the cold days this winter when I don't want to work in the garage.

VNS 11-27-2016 01:18 PM

Dynons comments are reveling.
""Right now we expect to put the VP-X on the HDX, but we don't have a timeframe we'd promise. We have a lot of things we want to keep adding to our systems so we're prioritizing VP-X along with everything else. Knowing customer demand sure helps.""

I was told at OSH this year all their Skyview screens were interchangeable - I could run a Classic in the same panel as the HDX. Now I can't. They obviously have two versions of V15 software, one for the classic providing VPX compatibility and one for HDX without. The VPX is indispensable for me and others which makes the G3X a good upgrade option. Customer demand is the only incentive for Dynon to provide compatibility. It's actually cost them resources to remove the VPX capability.

Jesse 11-27-2016 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VNS (Post 1129914)
Dynons comments are reveling.
""Right now we expect to put the VP-X on the HDX, but we don't have a timeframe we'd promise. We have a lot of things we want to keep adding to our systems so we're prioritizing VP-X along with everything else. Knowing customer demand sure helps.""

I was told at OSH this year all their Skyview screens were interchangeable - I could run a Classic in the same panel as the HDX. Now I can't. They obviously have two versions of V15 software, one for the classic providing VPX compatibility and one for HDX without. The VPX is indispensable for me and others which makes the G3X a good upgrade option. Customer demand is the only incentive for Dynon to provide compatibility. It's actually cost them resources to remove the VPX capability.

Right now the screens do work together between the HDX and the Skyview classic, but they don't recommend it and neither do I. I flew beta for several weeks with this setup and with completely different menu structure and thought process, it complicates things more than it helps. If you are upgrading, do both. If you are happy with your current panel, do neither. I haven't tested VP-X on version 15 of the Skyview a Classic, but I assume it works.

And yes, there are two different version 15's, one for HDX and one for SkyView Classic.

As a comparison, when G3X developed a Touch version, not only were the screens not cross-compatible, but neither were the cutouts. I can't speak to the wiring, but the HDX is a complete drop-in replacement with only the need to add 2 screw holes to the panel, which takes <5 minutes.

N427EF 11-27-2016 02:12 PM

Quote:

I was told at OSH this year all their Skyview screens were interchangeable - I could run a Classic in the same panel as the HDX. Now I can't.
I don't understand your gripe. From what I see, your only problem is you can't have the HDX right now but you have a fully functional system with your Skyview Classic and VP-X functioning beautifully, right?
Dynon said they will have compatibility in a future upgrade.
Quote:

The VPX is indispensable for me and others which makes the G3X a good upgrade option
By all means, I like my Garmin as much as my Dynons but at nearly twice the price and other issues mentioned by Jesse you might be better off exercising a bit of patience and let Dynon do their thing.
Quote:

The combination has worked well and I routinely review the status of all of the circuits on the Dynon display during run-up and in flight.
Our panels look very similar at least the 2 Dynon screens and all the switches and breakers. Mine has no VP-X and yours does.
https://goo.gl/photos/RV78ETi6JqE4mgAg6

dynonsupport 11-27-2016 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VNS (Post 1129914)
It's actually cost them resources to remove the VPX capability.

Patrick,
I can promise you the only reason VP-X is not in the HDX is the work it would take to put in HDX. HDX uses a completely different user interface that we need to re-write for VP-X. We sure didn't do work just to leave it out.

Snowflake 11-27-2016 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dynonsupport (Post 1129891)
Rob, this is exactly how the VPX works in every case. You are supposed to wire up panel switches for things you turn on and off. The display on an EFIS is mainly of currents and faults for each channel, and an emergency backup to a broken switch.

I thought the point was to get all the switches turned into "soft" switches on the Dynon... Now i'm not seeing the value of having everything integrated. Having current readings on a per-circuit basis is kind of neat, and maybe handy for the initial testing phase, but after that it's probably information overload for most people.

If you don't have a Dynon, how would the VPX indicate faults? Does it have an a single alarm light, or do you wire status lights alongside each switch? Maybe the solution is as simple as putting a temporary warning light in while Dynon implements an interface.

Flying Canuck 11-27-2016 02:51 PM

The VP-X needs an EFIS to display faults and statuses. It replaces circuit breakers. Each switched circuit should have a signal from a physical switch (grounding a low current line). My understanding is that you can reset circuits and operate virtual switches for each circuit through the EFIS. There are a few other settings that can be touched, but all configuration is done through the Ethernet cable based configuration PC software. It doesn't seem to an overly complicated interface on the EFIS.

RV7A Flyer 11-27-2016 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N427EF (Post 1129775)
You don't need a bunch of circuit breakers to clutter up your panel.
Many of us are using a combination of circuit breakers or switched circuit breakers that serve blade fuse sub panels.

FWIW, I have *no* CBs on my panel...I have all fuses, using 3 busses (main, essential and always-hot), all behind the instrument panel. There are no circuits which, if tripped, I want or need to reset in flight (given redundant functionalities, back-up batteries, essential bus capability, etc...yes, I did a full fault tree analysis, as well).

RViter 11-27-2016 11:01 PM

VP-X is a paradigm shift -
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RV7A Flyer (Post 1129995)
FWIW, I have *no* CBs on my panel...I have all fuses, using 3 busses (main, essential and always-hot), all behind the instrument panel. There are no circuits which, if tripped, I want or need to reset in flight (given redundant functionalities, back-up batteries, essential bus capability, etc...yes, I did a full fault tree analysis, as well).

What's a paradigm shift? It changes the game, it's not simply a substitution of the CB or Fuse panel. The best analogy to describe Vertical Power ECB is to think back to the typewriter, and the personal computer era. The PC was not a simple replacement of a typewriter, press a key and it appears on paper. Make a mistake and put some 'white-out' on the paper to correct it. The PC added new dimensions to the whole game. We have backspace, cut & paste, drop & drag, spell-checker, and numerous writing and editing features. Electronic storage of the documents, email transmissions, collaboration of editing, and WYSIWYG (WhizzyWig) ... fonts, and a plethora of typesetting features.

To call VP-X a substitution for a fuse block, or CB panel is to ignore the enabling technology that ECB adds. The EFIS displays the VP-X status, and informs the pilot of faults and operating conditions which a fuse panel cannot replicate. The earlier models (VP-50, -100, and -200) included a dedicated CU (Control Unit) and a bank of assignable switches. No integration with the EFIS was required. The VP-X models require the builder to construct the switches and assign them to circuit 'pins' to activate the ECB function. There is an option to enhance the switches by using illuminated switches and the ON/OFF status is then visible on the switch panel. With EFIS/VP-X integration the flap position can be displayed on a widget in the ENGINE page of the SkyView. [Think of that as WYSIWYG, added status information beyond ON/OFF.]

I'll be one of the first to say that understanding the ECB world was initially NOT intuitive and I also troubled over the oversimplification that much of the literature presents. A superficial look at ECB will miss the concept that explains paradigm shift.

Yes, it's experimental - all of the glass panels, and integration is experimental and it's about flying. Yes, some can and do 'buy the package' and turn it on but there is a huge experiment progressing in E-AB aviation. Many vendors are taking significant business risks and striving to converge on the future. Aviation is not just airfoils and stick & rudder.

Brantel 11-28-2016 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N427EF (Post 1129923)
By all means, I like my Garmin as much as my Dynons but at nearly twice the price

May I suggest that you obtain a current apples to apples quote. You may find that this statement is a bit outdated.

dweyant 11-28-2016 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brantel (Post 1130024)
May I suggest that you obtain a current apples to apples quote. You may find that this statement is a bit outdated.

I priced out Garmin and Dynon when I did my panel (about two years ago now). The price difference was almost nill (I think the all in Garmin setup was about $200 - $300 more).

There are lots of reasons to pick one over the other, but price is no longer a valid one.

-Dan

DanH 11-28-2016 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RViter (Post 1130010)
What's a paradigm shift?

Apparently it has something to do with hyperbole.

RV7A Flyer 11-28-2016 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RViter (Post 1130010)
What's a paradigm shift? It changes the game, it's not simply a substitution of the CB or Fuse panel. The best analogy to describe Vertical Power ECB is to think back to the typewriter, and the personal computer era. The PC was not a simple replacement of a typewriter, press a key and it appears on paper. Make a mistake and put some 'white-out' on the paper to correct it. The PC added new dimensions to the whole game. We have backspace, cut & paste, drop & drag, spell-checker, and numerous writing and editing features. Electronic storage of the documents, email transmissions, collaboration of editing, and WYSIWYG (WhizzyWig) ... fonts, and a plethora of typesetting features.

To call VP-X a substitution for a fuse block, or CB panel is to ignore the enabling technology that ECB adds. The EFIS displays the VP-X status, and informs the pilot of faults and operating conditions which a fuse panel cannot replicate. The earlier models (VP-50, -100, and -200) included a dedicated CU (Control Unit) and a bank of assignable switches. No integration with the EFIS was required. The VP-X models require the builder to construct the switches and assign them to circuit 'pins' to activate the ECB function. There is an option to enhance the switches by using illuminated switches and the ON/OFF status is then visible on the switch panel. With EFIS/VP-X integration the flap position can be displayed on a widget in the ENGINE page of the SkyView. [Think of that as WYSIWYG, added status information beyond ON/OFF.]

I'll be one of the first to say that understanding the ECB world was initially NOT intuitive and I also troubled over the oversimplification that much of the literature presents. A superficial look at ECB will miss the concept that explains paradigm shift.

Yes, it's experimental - all of the glass panels, and integration is experimental and it's about flying. Yes, some can and do 'buy the package' and turn it on but there is a huge experiment progressing in E-AB aviation. Many vendors are taking significant business risks and striving to converge on the future. Aviation is not just airfoils and stick & rudder.

Thanks for the lesson. I wouldn't have known what a "paradigm shift" was. </snark off>

I'm not saying anyone should or shouldn't use a system like VP...that's entirely up to them. All I was responding to was the idea that one has to have circuit breakers on the panel.

I'm certainly not a Luddite, and have an all-glass panel myself...but it's pretty easy to start making systems more and more complex and start to bump up against the possibility of what are called "normal failures".

FWIW, I wonder how such a system analyzes out when looking at SPFs...does it merely move around the SPFs, or does it create additional ones? Or does it eliminate some?

ETA: BTW, illuminated switches? Got 'em...on when the circuit is on, off when not. Flap position on the EFIS? Got it (well, will whenever I get around to hooking up the sensor...point is, I don't need VP-X do get this). How are switches and pins different than switches and fuses? Don't they both requires a switch?

N427EF 11-28-2016 03:31 PM

Quote:

May I suggest that you obtain a current apples to apples quote. You may find that this statement is a bit outdated.
My reference to "almost twice the price" was directed at the idea of an "upgrade"
switching from a Dynon system to a Garmin system.
In his case, he would only have to pay for the new HDX if he can wait for the
VP-X support from Dynon.
If he upgrades to a Garmin he will need new screens and Garmin servos for the autopilot to work along with mostly new wiring.
Compare that upgrade to a simple drop in replacement for a HDX from Dynon.

I am aware that Garmin is now very competitive in the experimental market.

cdeerinck 11-28-2016 06:11 PM

Waiting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dynonsupport (Post 1129755)
Claude,
Right now we expect to put the VP-X on the HDX, but we don't have a timeframe we'd promise. We have a lot of things we want to keep adding to our systems so we're prioritizing VP-X along with everything else. Knowing customer demand sure helps.

Put me down as a customer that intends on buying a dual HDX system, as soon as it supports the VP-X. I am just reaching the point on my build to get them in the next few months.

I don't wan't to go to the pre-HDX systems, as one of the responses from Dynon to a user asking about the split EMS screen on a pre-HDX system indicated that they would be entering a "no new development" phase soon, if not already the case.

Brantel 11-28-2016 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N427EF (Post 1130164)
My reference to "almost twice the price" was directed at the idea of an "upgrade"
switching from a Dynon system to a Garmin system.
In his case, he would only have to pay for the new HDX if he can wait for the
VP-X support from Dynon.
If he upgrades to a Garmin he will need new screens and Garmin servos for the autopilot to work along with mostly new wiring.
Compare that upgrade to a simple drop in replacement for a HDX from Dynon.

I am aware that Garmin is now very competitive in the experimental market.

Fair enough!

GaryK 11-29-2016 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdeerinck (Post 1130208)
Put me down as a customer that intends on buying a dual HDX system, as soon as it supports the VP-X. I am just reaching the point on my build to get them in the next few months.

I don't wan't to go to the pre-HDX systems, as one of the responses from Dynon to a user asking about the split EMS screen on a pre-HDX system indicated that they would be entering a "no new development" phase soon, if not already the case.

Chuck,
Can you point to the response from Dynon that says "no new development". I find it hard to believe the legacy Skyveiw systems will have no further development.

Gary

Raymo 11-29-2016 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdeerinck (Post 1130208)
they would be entering a "no new development" phase soon, if not already the case.

Not according to a recent post on their forum.

Flying Canuck 11-29-2016 07:55 AM

And also on the Dynon forums, a response to the same question I started this thread with.

Quote:

Yes, it is coming to the HDX, and yes, it's expected in the coming months.
That's a little bit more of a commitment than was given here.

RV7A Flyer 11-29-2016 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymo (Post 1130330)
Not according to a recent post on their forum.

Dynon never said any such thing on that thread or any other.

Raymo 11-29-2016 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RV7A Flyer (Post 1130384)
Dynon never said any such thing on that thread or any other.

To quote:

"v15 adds a bunch of awesome features to all SkyView displays. Highway in the Sky, runway centerlines on the map, navigation to runways, aircraft maintenance tracking, and more. Non-HDX SkyView has not been discontinued, and as you can see we've continued to add features."

RV7A Flyer 11-29-2016 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymo (Post 1130387)
To quote:

"Mark & Quote Quote v15 adds a bunch of awesome features to all SkyView displays. Highway in the Sky, runway centerlines on the map, navigation to runways, aircraft maintenance tracking, and more. Non-HDX SkyView has not been discontinued, and as you can see we've continued to add features."

That's what I meant...that they never said they were entering a "no new development phase". I sort of phrased my earlier response incorrectly, it was really in response to the earlier assertion.

You're correct...and my apologies for being obtuse... :)

Raymo 11-29-2016 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RV7A Flyer (Post 1130402)
That's what I meant...that they never said they were entering a "no new development phase".

Thanks for clarifying and all good. I do hope that they continue development of the "Legacy" boxes but also realize that it will depend on sales/profit of that hardware. Software support in other realms tops out at 10 years unless you pay for continued support.

I recently cancelled an HDX order and went with a second SV1000T since I already had one and budget did not allow for two new screens, at the moment. I hope to be flying soon and transition training will be in a -7 with nearly the same setup.

RV7A Flyer 11-29-2016 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymo (Post 1130496)
Thanks for clarifying and all good. I do hope that they continue development of the "Legacy" boxes but also realize that it will depend on sales/profit of that hardware. Software support in other realms tops out at 10 years unless you pay for continued support.

I recently cancelled an HDX order and went with a second SV1000T since I already had one and budget did not allow for two new screens, at the moment. I hope to be flying soon and transition training will be in a -7 with nearly the same setup.

I have an SV1000T and love it. I'm actually not sure, based on what I see in the specs, that I'd go with the newer HDX even if I was starting out now. I like the interface of the SV Touch, but I also find I'm split most of the time about 60/40 in favor of the buttons and knobs, just going by how often I use either interface method (buttons/knobs vs. touch). I'm also not real sold on the little "shelf" that sticks out from the panel, but maybe that's just because I haven't tried it...still, seems a departure from normal avionics to me.

But hey...to those who like it, I say go for it! I'm quite confident that Dynon will continue to upgrade/maintain the non-HDX line for a long time to come.

dynonsupport 11-29-2016 04:52 PM

So an update here on HDX VP-X support:

Although we didn't have a firm time-frame for its addition before this week, we've always expected to have VP-X support on HDX.

We often plan feature order based on demand, and this thread - along with other feedback we've gotten - has helped us prioritize this. So thanks to your help, VP-X support on HDX is now on our shortlist and will be among the next round of features we add.

As for exact dates - we don't have ourselves scheduled out yet, but we typically do 4-5 major software releases a year, with smaller updates and fixes as needed. So without making promises, we'd expect VP-X support to land within the next few months.

Jesse 11-29-2016 06:02 PM

Great news on meeting customer demand. Thanks, Dynon!

Cbull 11-29-2016 09:32 PM

Kicking myself for not just skipping to the end of this thread. Thanks Dynon! Looking forward to being able to use my VPX-Pro with HDX. I've got a few months of work to do before ordering my EFIS's anyway.

Joe Parish 11-30-2016 09:31 PM

Great news Dynon! Thanks. Didn't really want to switch to a different brand.

MCA 11-30-2016 11:14 PM

Glad to read that the fuse/ECB debate continues almost 10 years after the release of the first VP product!

But I digress... First, glad to hear Dynon is committed to HDX support in a the near future.

The VP-X will operate just fine without an EFIS in the interim until the integration is supported. You won't have variable speed trim or flap overspeed protection or landing light wig wag or in-flight reset or current draw per circuit or device status, but you'll be able to turn everything on and off and the trim and flaps will operate in "dumb" mode. If there is a circuit fault, the device will simply be off, like blowing a fuse behind the panel. When you get back on the ground, plug in your PC and reset the fault. You could even fly with a laptop in the right seat if you wanted real time information and control. Not perfect but good enough for a short while, IMO.

cjensen 12-01-2016 09:29 AM

Good on ya, Dynon!:cool:

bruceh 03-17-2020 10:20 PM

Classic to HDX upgrade scenario?
 
So if you have an existing VPX license for a Skyview Classic EFIS display, then decide to upgrade to a Skyview HDX EFIS, will a new license need to be purchased, or can the previous license be carried over to the HDX?

Don Jones 03-17-2020 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruceh (Post 1415421)
So if you have an existing VPX license for a Skyview Classic EFIS display, then decide to upgrade to a Skyview HDX EFIS, will a new license need to be purchased, or can the previous license be carried over to the HDX?

Just give us a call and we will transfer your license over to the new HDX. We will need the serial number of the Classic and the HDX to transfer the license.

Don Jones 03-17-2020 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruceh (Post 1415421)
So if you have an existing VPX license for a Skyview Classic EFIS display, then decide to upgrade to a Skyview HDX EFIS, will a new license need to be purchased, or can the previous license be carried over to the HDX?

Just give us a call and we will transfer your license over to the new HDX. We will need the serial number of the Classic and the HDX to transfer the license.


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