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-   -   Canyon de Chelly flight (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=142971)

grubbat 10-24-2016 06:40 AM

Low level flying
 
Drones will make this type of flying obsolete in the future.

Low Pass 10-24-2016 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rv3Dave (Post 1120611)
Flying like this especially over a National Monument is exactly why general aviation and RV's have a bad reputation. While the 2000 ft agl is only a recommendation in National Parks and Monuments it will become a rule if we abuse the privilege. Smoke just proves this flight was all about showing off.

Freedoms not exercised are freedoms lost. If the people posting here are to control all of us, then let's just prohibit any flying below 2000' agl. And why not make it 5000' agl, so the noise is less? Actually, why are any of you flying around in small airplanes spewing greenhouse gasses and toxic lead???

As for the smoke, why would they be showing off to the few people, if any, who are down there? It was clearly for video effect.

And what of the benefit provided seeing this video for the people who will never get to see this area from the air, or on foot for that matter?

*This thread* demonstrates why I will never post another photo or video on this board.

flybill7 10-24-2016 10:37 AM

Wow
 
That was the best RV video I have ever seen. Well done. I have been to Canyon de Chelly; took the ground tour with the Navajo Guide. It was spectacular. I would have enjoyed seeing two planes zooming by overhead for all of 30 seconds and I suspect so would most people. It's not like it is happening all day long. Why can't airplanes enjoy the national parks the same way cars, motorcycles, ATVs, bikes, horses, boats, ski machines, recreational vehicles, etc. get to do?

Alan Carroll 10-24-2016 10:42 AM

Visitors
 
I can find things to agree with on both sides of this debate I think. I struggled with a similar question myself recently while shooting air-to-ground video of geysers in Yellowstone, that I wanted use in a online energy course (with over 12,000 enrolled). I was strongly tempted to go low, but in the end chose not to. The resulting shots that I got from >2000 agl were not great and didn't make it into the course.

One thing I have to disagree with is the notion this activity doesn't affect many people. According to the internet Canyon de Chelly is actually one of the most visited national monuments, over 800,000 visitors per year with the peak in August. The majority of these probably came during the warmer months, so it seems pretty certain the impromptu air show had a large audience. It would be interesting (although impossible) to know their opinions!

mikeflys8 10-24-2016 10:53 AM

REALLY ?
 
Interesting that the FIRST Response was from someone from a former COMMUNIST COUNTRY!!!!!
THINK ABOUT IT!!!!

MarkW 10-24-2016 11:13 AM

Great video. I sure love that scenery. Don't get much of that in Florida.

BillL 10-24-2016 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeflys8 (Post 1121375)
Interesting that the FIRST Response was from someone from a former COMMUNIST COUNTRY!!!!!
THINK ABOUT IT!!!!

I hope you meant "formerly from a" , but yes.

On the noise. I looked up the reasons for the 2000' request. It was based on the "soundscape" craze (or themes - pick your word) at the time. So then, looked up sound for GA planes and the dBA reduction for the distance. Background without people in a park is 25-30 dBA. With people it is 30-40 dBa. A 2 blade 72-74" prop at 2700 is about 77 dBa (referenced in the doc). If the exhaust is about the same, then it is double, about 80 dBA. Pretty close to the listed 172. If the sound is measured at 500-700' it is reduced to the 30 dBA range. You guys can recheck the numbers and correct as appropriate, but the actual sound is not so high.

Each person interprets things differently. I bet some were watching (depending on the time of day) and saying/thinking- wow how cool ;)

I moved to a country setting. It was nice at night to have darkness and see the stars. New people moved in built new houses- 50% of them put a lamp post with a brilliant light on it that stays on all night. Right at eye level. :cool:

Cary Brooks 10-24-2016 01:04 PM

Great video. No harm no footprint no foul. Great flying. Can't understand the negative reactions. Envious I guess

moosepileit 10-24-2016 02:08 PM

Simple. Inside Boundaries of a National Park, 2000'AGL, on the chart, not too much to ask.

Put it on a social media site? I might have had height to make a landing zone, as well as the 2000' AGL, defendable if asked, chute or no chute.

Great video, no multiple takes or loiters depicted so not too much noise footprint. Except that 1 complainer that gets your name tagged to a permanent hard deck or worse, another Grand Canyon CFR.

Saw the canyon as a kid, was already flying. A quick buzz that you know is high enough and low enough RPM to not quiver the true bother meter of a reasonable person takes a little practice. Wing work is usually above that RPM.

The video did look a bit like the old Blue Angles or T Birds flying over the Grand Canyon. You had great lighting, planned or not. Hope it made some "chemtrailer" poop, but not call anyone in LE.

I see both sides, and have flow plenty of disruptive military low levels, by the books. I lean towards the, "Sweet", but no doubt you obviously get the sour too.

scsmith 10-24-2016 02:20 PM

It was great to go to the Reno Air Races and hear all the RV's racing around the course.

I worked at a research lab on a Naval Air Station for 33 years, and it was always cool to hear a pair of Hornets in the break, or a Tomcat depart in full AB.

When I go backpacking in the wilderness, or visit a National Park, I want to hear the gurgling of water in the creek, the wind in the cottonwoods, and the sound I want to hear echoing off the canyon walls is the song of a canyon wren, not a GA airplane.

BillL's noise data ignores the effects of echoing off of clouds or in a canyon. I have no doubt that those airplanes were very audible for at least 3 miles up and down the canyon. We fly about 3 miles a minute, so that means that a visitor to the park would hear those airplanes for two minutes, perhaps more.

The reason for the 2000 ft request is indeed to preserve the sound environment, a significant contributing part of the overall environment and experience of visiting the grand places we have collectively protected for those specific types of enjoyment. It wasn't some "craze" as suggested, it is an ongoing pressure to restrict activities by some that infringe on the freedom of others to have a place to enjoy free of man-made disturbances.

Like it or not, every time you fly, you are an ambassador for RV's and for GA flying in general. As this, and the other recent thread about flying manners illustrates, some of us are more considerate than others of how our behavior impacts other people. There is an old adage, "your fist's rights end at the tip of my nose". Keep exercising your "right" to fly through a National Monument below the rim of a canyon and likely the 2000 ft request won't just be a request any more.


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