RV-6 Spins... Yeah this again.
 

So I am now flying an RV6 around. I have lots of practice spinning my sold Citabria (vanilla upright, L&R) and spinning my Pitts S1S (all modes).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG-m...TOm9Zw&index=2

So now that I am starting to fly this RV6, I will of course be doing some light acro when people want to get their acro cherry popped. The RV6 has a reputation as being difficult to start a spin and possibly difficult to recover. Well, I buy into the theory that you don't do acro in a plane you have not spun since many botched maneuvers end in a spin. So the question becomes what EMERGENCY recovery is recommended? I understand that the incipient phase is different that an established spin. Many aircraft will recover with just a reduction in power and neutralizing the controls.

The three major spin recoveries: PARE, Beggs, and Finagin it seems PARE is the one that Vans recommends. Has anyone tried the other two?

I have read up on how some consider an RV6 and a spin to be stupid. I have read that Vans recommends staying at fewer than 2 revolutions. But I am looking for advice because if I can't spin the plane, I will not be taking people up for light acro in it and that was one of the best things about my Citabria.

I have spun the six up to 1.5 turns with "normal" recovery using PARE. It will typically take 1 additional rotation to recover after PARE inputs. No problem.

The problem in the six is the aerobatic gross weight of 1375 pounds. That essentially precludes aerobatics in a six with two people. Search the forums for the MANY discussions on this.

Have fun, be safe.

Transition Syllabus Resource
 

Hi Ron,

Don't know if you've looked, but you might find some info in the emergency out-of-control/spin discussion in the transition syllabus linked in the sticky at the top of this (Safety) page to be helpful in your research. It begins on page 283 of the current version (3.1). There is also quite a bit of discussion in the Handling Characteristics section (page 316) that may be useful before you start spin testing your airplane. Intentional spin discussion begins on page 357. Appendix B has an advanced handling briefing that provides a 30,000 foot overview of basic RV aerobatics (page 393). If you download the pdf version of the document, the table of contents is hyperlinked to help with navigation.

Side-by-side types have slightly different spin characteristics than the tandem airplanes (perhaps due to the shape of the forward fuselage and it's aerodynamic effect at high yaw rates), but all RV's are sensitive to static margin (CG) as regards spin characteristics and recovery. Differences between individual aircraft may also affect post-stall handling characteristics, including vertical tail configuration/size on different RV-6's. The easiest way to ensure conventional handling characteristics is to operate the airplane within the design envelope as Gary said and confirm the flight controls are rigged in accordance with the design instructions. Be mindful of the aft aerobatic CG limit and understand that things can get sporty in the aft 25-30% of the usable aerobatic envelope when conducting sustained auto-rotation in side-by-side RV-types. If you didn't build your RV, you might also consider re-weighing it before conducting post-stall test to ensure you have accurate weight and balance data.

You may have already read it, but if not, the "Final Inspection and Flight Test" chapter in the builder's manual has some very helpful information you might find useful as you experiment with post-stall handling characteristics.

One point to ponder is that I noticed on your youtube video you used the expression "stomp" as regards rudder application during spin recovery. To avoid damaging the metal airframe (especially the tail), Van is always careful to point out that smooth flight control application is the best way to fly an RV-type. So if the definition of "stomp" is smooth application of rudder sufficient to stop yaw, then it's all good!

Fly safe and add any "lessons learned" to this post!

Cheers,

Vac

Try this...
 

With a few thousand spins under my belt I thought I had a pretty good idea about how to handle spin recoveries in my RV. That is until about four years ago when I took an upset recovery training course offered by a highly respected pilot named Bill Finigan. Bill is an accomplished aerobatic competitor and IAC chief judge. As a sales representative for Aviat Aircraft he travels the country and hosts upset recovery training courses which involve a morning of classroom instruction and afternoon flights in his Pitts S-2C.
During the morning session Bill asked the handful of pilots assembled to tell him what methods of upset recovery they had come upon out there in the real world. (Keep in mind that we are talking about upset recovery which involves recovery from any unusual attitude, not just a normal upright spin.) I offered that if you don't know what type of unusual attitude you are in, just apply pro-spin controls and any wild gyration would quickly revert to an upright spin. Then you simply apply normal anti-spin controls to recover (ie: throttle idle, rudder opposite the spin, release back pressure and recover from the dive.) Bill smiled and said we would try that during my afternoon flight. The gleam in his eye told me I was probably in for a whooping of some sort!
Bill went on to talk about accelerated spins and inverted spins. He drew an analogy concerning accelerated spins that sticks with me today: Consider an ice skater who is doing a slow spin with his arms extended. As he brings his arms in close to his body the spin rapidly accelerates. Similarly, an aircraft in a flat spin with the nose and tail at a great distance from the axis of the spin will accelerate when the nose is lowered, bringing the weight of the nose and tail closer to the axis of the spin.
Following a hearty lunch of nearly nothing I found myself strapped into the front seat of Bill's Pitts and we were climbing through 7000 feet. As briefed, Bill put the Pitts into an inverted, right turning flat spin and said "your aircraft". I applied the unusual attitude recovery method that I had mentioned in class that morning (pro normal spin controls): Throttle idle, left rudder, full aft stick. You can probably guess what happened. Since we were in an inverted spin, the application of left rudder, which acts in reverse when inverted, did nothing to slow the spin rotation. As I moved the stick aft the nose lowered dramatically and the spin accelerated to an astonishing rate! (I had brought the skater's arms close to his body!) I swear that I heard Bill laughing over the sound of the Lycoming IO-540.
Following that entertaining display of airmanship, Bill went on to demonstrate his 4-step recovery technique and allowed me to try it on a number of out-of-control situations, including the dreaded inverted flat spin. The premise of his recovery techniques supposes that the pilot has no idea if he is spinning right or left or tumbling fore or aft. (I have a fair amount of aerobatic experience and I admit that I was hard pressed to identify the direction of turn during some of the situations I experienced during that flight with Bill.)
To get to the point, here's Bill's unusual attitude recovery technique:

1. THROTTLE - IDLE
2. FORCE THE CONTROLS TO NEUTRAL
3. WAIT FOR 100 KNOTS
4. RECOVER FROM THE DIVE

Step one takes the influence of engine thrust, torque and P-factor out of the picture and reduces the engine's influence to that of a dead weight at the front of the airplane.
Step two takes the influence of all controls out of the picture and allows that dead weight (engine) to pull the airplane into a dive just like a dart. (Note that this step requires that you FORCE the controls to neutral. Releasing the controls does not necessarily mean that they will go to a neutral position. I have found that in a fully developed upright spin my RV-8 stick will stay nearly full aft when I release it!)
Step three makes you wait until sufficient airspeed develops so you can safely apply flight controls without entering a secondary spin.
Step four keeps you from hitting the ground! (Duh!)

To answer your first question: Yes, this recovery procedure may take longer than a normal spin recovery (no rudder opposite the spin!). But remember, you may not know which direction you are spinning and if you are guessing you have a 50% chance of getting it right.

I climbed out of Bill's Pitts with a slightly deflated ego and a foolproof procedure for upset recovery that I think of every time I fly. Thanks, Bill.

I did not know of that document... I'll DL and read it, thanks.

Didn't build, so I'll also look for this doc and read it.

"Stomp" to me means "full application". Partial application can really delay the recovery. I can see how it could be read as fast... But in a Pitts that is also OK. I'll stomp to full application, but smoothly in the RV - Thanks!

In my Pitts, I did PARE

1. Power - off
2. Ailerons - Neutral
3. Rudder - Opposite the Yaw
4. Elevator - Fwd (or back if inverted)

Beggs Muller
1. Power - Off
2. Let go of the stick
3. Rudder - Opposite the Yaw

Finigin... Which you described.

I found Beggs Muller was actually a bit faster. When you let go of the stick it floats to a bit of in spin aileron which is anti spin and just enough up elevator to still present as much rudder as possible while also going towards neutral. In addition it has fewer steps than PARE.

I tried Beggs in my 7ECA and found that it 'snapped' nose down. I think it actually did an outside snap. The G meter read -2. Since the plane was rated -2, I didn't do any more attempts at Beggs in the Citabria.

What I plan when flying is to use Finigain's recovery technique since pulling the power and neutralizing all the controls will also prevent a plane from departing. If it does spin, then I modify Finigin to add in anti yaw input.

I'll try some spins in the 6 after I do a new W&B.

OP, you're not going to find broad experience among the RV community with the emergency recovery techniques you show in your video - especially in the RV-6. Few RV pilots are tuned into emergency spin recovery as those in the dedicated acro world are. On the advice of Vans against spinning the side by sides, few RV-6 pilots report spinning more than 1.5 turns - which is not yet fully developed. But this airplane is known to recover with normal PARE inputs once fully developed, but with a faster than normal rotation rate, and a somewhat delayed response to normal anti-spin inputs.

Seems you are qualified to spin test these techniques in your RV-6. The Vans recommendation against spinning the 6 is primarily due to the fact that your average pilot has little experience and a low comfort level with spins. Those who do spins all the time and are comfortable with them will likely not be freaked out by the airplane.

I'm sure folks here will read your findings with interest.

I have explored spins quite a bit in my -6A, up to and including 14-turn upright spins both left and right along with flattened and inverted spins (sucks cleaning quarts of oil off the belly, but I wanted to validate recovery from that situation).

No issues with either PARE or Finigan (which is what I usually use) but not a fan of Beggs-Mueller in my -6A. It's the slowest to recover from a fully developed spin, taking three rotations or more. PARE or Finigan each took slightly less than two rotations.

With less than half-full fuel tanks, expect the engine to start windmilling after 6-8 turns because to fuel starvation due to fuel moving to the outboard sides of the fuel tanks.

I plan on testing them. I am just in the "get educated from others mistakes first" phase. If someone has tried Beggs and it didn't work (It does not work in all planes) then I can know that going into the series.

I already got some good advice when advised that "stomp" with gusto might be bad.

And this helps. I don't want to go into a series without knowing the recovery I KNOW will stop the Earths rotation before impact. And knowing it will speed up first (which most flat spins will do) and that it will take a revolution or two to stop is also good info. The first time I did a flat spin and it sped up before recovering, well it was eye opening.

If I get around to it.... I'll do a video like I did with the Pitts. But it will be months away since I am still feeling the plane out. Only have about 10 hours in it and most of that was learning the 430, auto pilot, and GRT.

Oh My !

So much to choose from....

I did some transition training for a guy in a 6 some years ago.

We tried normal, Muller/Beggs and then nothing....

When you do nothing and after a 2 turn spin, just let go - well guess what, it recovers.

Darn fine Mr VanGrunsven !