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-   -   MT P860-3 Prop Gov fail. (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=140879)

jwilbur 08-18-2016 08:09 AM

I'm about to hang my engine in a few weeks. I got a standard D4A5 through Van's with the standard Hartzel prop. Looks like Van's is shipping Hartzel governors with the FWF kit, which I got about 6 months ago. Did they used to ship FWF kits with MT governors?

rleffler 08-18-2016 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N402RH (Post 1104254)
I am currently in the middle of swapping the MT for the Hartzell and this is not proving to be easy. The control arm location is totally different and it looks like I will be talking to Hartzell in the morning.

Rob Hickman
N402RH

Rob,

Hartzell has a control arm extension that you need for the RV-10. It's about a $30 part. I don't have the part number handy, but Hartzell will know what you need. There are several three or four year old threads here that discuss the need. Van's supplies the Hartzell governor, but not the required arm.



bob

rleffler 08-18-2016 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwilbur (Post 1104346)
I'm about to hang my engine in a few weeks. I got a standard D4A5 through Van's with the standard Hartzel prop. Looks like Van's is shipping Hartzel governors with the FWF kit, which I got about 6 months ago. Did they used to ship FWF kits with MT governors?

They've been shipping both for awhile. Prior to about 2011 or they shipped only MT. I got one of the first Hartzell's with no prior notice from Van's. A little surprise when you were expecting a MT. I will say that I'm pleased with the Hartzell. I've stopped by their facility several times since it's about a thirty minute flight away from me. They do provide great support.

jwilbur 08-18-2016 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rleffler (Post 1104351)
... I will say that I'm pleased with the Hartzell. I've stopped by their facility several times since it's about a thirty minute flight away from me. They do provide great support.

This is good to hear.


Quote:

Originally Posted by rleffler (Post 1104349)
.... Van's supplies the Hartzell governor, but not the required arm.

Do you know if this is still true with the FWF kits?

jwilbur 08-18-2016 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwilbur (Post 1104352)
Do you know if this is still true with the FWF kits?

I'll answer my own question. Sounds like you only need the extended arm with the quadrant control. I've got vernier. See #6 in this thread:
http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...ll+control+arm

Auburntsts 08-18-2016 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwilbur (Post 1104353)
I'll answer my own question. Sounds like you only need the extended arm with the quadrant control. I've got vernier. See #6 in this thread:
http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...ll+control+arm

Joe I still think you need the extension regardless of the cockpit side of the cable.

falcon900guy 08-18-2016 10:33 AM

MT governor
 
I ordered a MT prop and governor about 3 weeks ago and now see this thread. Just curious, is this a problem with all gov's or just units from a couple years ago?

jwilbur 08-18-2016 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auburntsts (Post 1104375)
Joe I still think you need the extension regardless of the cockpit side of the cable.

Thanks Todd. If so I'll update this thread for future reference.

PropProfessor 08-18-2016 10:40 AM

PCU5000X VAF Sale
 
VAF special, is the sales code you need to mention when you order a PCU5000X. The PCU5000X normally sells for $1,600.00 we will be selling to VAF aviators for $1,250.00 plus shipping. Limited time only, deal will expire October 31,2016. Please contact Mac at 1-847-541-1133 ext 108 or macpaszkowski@aircraftpropeller.com
Cheers!

Sean O'Keefe
Program Manager
Aero Technologies, LLC
1-847-541-1133 ext 109

Auburntsts 08-18-2016 10:48 AM

Can anyone verify whether the extension arm for the Hartzell gov is needed for the vernier (aka blue knob) installs?

CharlieWaffles 08-18-2016 11:02 AM

The arm is only needed for the quadrant. The arm allows you to use the full range in the quadrant. If you are using the Vernier controls, there isn't a race for the control to move in and look awkward - so no need.

jwilbur 08-18-2016 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlieWaffles (Post 1104396)
The arm is only needed for the quadrant. The arm allows you to use the full range in the quadrant. If you are using the Vernier controls, there isn't a race for the control to move in and look awkward - so no need.

Very good. Thank you, Mark.

N402RH 08-18-2016 11:09 AM

Hartzell Governor Install
 
After about 5 hours of work I actually got it installed and working with the standard arm. This is what I had to do to install it:

1. With the existing washer, lock washer and nut I found the case studs were too short. I ended up using only the lock washer and nut and the stud is flush with the top of the nut. I will order new longer studs from Lycoming and change them next time I change the oil.

2. After loosening the nut holding the standard arm and re clocking it to the correct orientation I found the rod end would interfere with the travel stops. The Hartzell instructions say that you can loosen the cap screws and only rotate it withing the slot. After a lot of frustration and a visit to CharlieWaffles RV-10 I ignored the instructions and removed all the cap screws and rotated that cap assembly about 100 degrees. With the stop assembly now located in the back (like the MT) I was able to get it to work without any interference.

3. I then had to do a lot of trimming on the baffle assembly so that it would mount around the larger governor.

4. I then had to do a lot of trimming on the upper cowl fiberglass to get it to fit around the new governor.

It would be nice if the Hartzell governor purchased from Van's for an RV-10 came with the longer arm and was already clocked at the correct location. I suspect that the Van's tech support people are going to get a lot of calls.

Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10

rleffler 08-18-2016 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N402RH (Post 1104403)
After It would be nice if the Hartzell governor purchased from Van's for an RV-10 came with the longer arm and was already clocked at the correct location. I suspect that the Van's tech support people are going to get a lot of calls.

Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10

It was brought to their attention at least four years ago when they started shipping the Hartzell governors.

Like the ring gear change causing alternator alignment issues, it's fallen on deaf ears. Like the alternator mount kit, this arm should be included in the FWF kit since you can't get airworthy without them.

BobTurner 08-18-2016 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rleffler (Post 1104411)
It was brought to their attention at least four years ago when they started shipping the Hartzell governors.
Like the alternator mount kit, this arm should be included in the FWF kit since you can't get airworthy without them.

I slightly disagree. It should be included with the Quadrant kit option. As pointed out in previous posts, the arm shipped works with push-pull blue knobs. At least it did on mine, shipped fall 2009. (note 7 years ago)
Maybe a few instructions would have been nice. Like others, I stared at the thing a long time, finally contacted Hartzell, who said removing all the cap screws and rotating the top was okay if done carefully. Actual job was only a few minutes.

BobTurner 08-18-2016 02:07 PM

BTW, a post on the 'other' forum from someone who called MT in Germany says that MT has identified an issue and will be issuing a SB shortly.

woxofswa 08-18-2016 10:08 PM

My RPM at moment of PG Failure



FYI to Hartzell buyers

Van's lists their Hartzell govs incorrectly in their catalog. They list them as for "IO" or "O". According to Hartzell, there is no difference on fuel delivery. The correct listing should be for narrow deck or wide deck.

Rob,

Our meatball field mods to get back flying had us cutting the upper cowl opening enlargement with the saw blade of a Leatherman.

Dustyone 08-19-2016 04:53 AM

SB 31
 
I have just heard back from MT in Germany.

There is soon to be a new SB31 with expanded serial numbers to address the recent failures.

Although this will mean grounding my aircraft,cudos to MT for responding so quickly.

Letter below:

But we have another issue with the P-8XX-3 series , during operation a flyweight assembly could become loose.
In this case the damaged flyweight assembly will result in an overspeed or underspeed condition .

Shortly we will release the SB 31 because of that issues.
According this SB 31 your governor with the S/N 11G028G is affected .

This modification is free of charge.

If you have any more question , do not hesitate to contact me.


Best Regards

Andreas Seperant

Engineering / Tech Support
MT-Propeller Entwicklung GmbH
Airport Straubing-Wallmuehle
D-94348 Atting - GERMANY
phone: +49( 0 )9429-9409-44
fax: +49( 0 )9429 - 8432
www.mt-propeller.com

woxofswa 08-20-2016 10:19 AM

In looking more closely at my recorder data on www.savvyanalysis.com,there is something that stands out to me.

Prior to my PG failure, there were four momentary upward spikes in my RPM of approx 150RPM each. There were none on the previous segment of the flight, nor on the previous flight.

The first one happened 17 minutes prior to the failure. They are just blips with no duration at the peak. I honestly didn't notice them in the flight.
I am not expert on any of this stuff, and just started with the software, but, If I were to be in a situation where I was going to fly with one of these PG's, I would set my max RPM alert to 100 rpm higher than what I planned to use at cruise. (I normally cruise at 2300 below 10K and 2400 above).

One could do it prior to flight and just deal with the alert on takeoff, or reset the alert level once established in cruise. At any rate, it could give an alert that something is potentially wrong and give more time to GYAOTG

N402RH 08-20-2016 11:50 AM

Update on my Governor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by N402RH (Post 1104403)
After about 5 hours of work I actually got it installed and working with the standard arm. This is what I had to do to install it:

1. With the existing washer, lock washer and nut I found the case studs were too short. I ended up using only the lock washer and nut and the stud is flush with the top of the nut. I will order new longer studs from Lycoming and change them next time I change the oil.

2. After loosening the nut holding the standard arm and re clocking it to the correct orientation I found the rod end would interfere with the travel stops. The Hartzell instructions say that you can loosen the cap screws and only rotate it withing the slot. After a lot of frustration and a visit to CharlieWaffles RV-10 I ignored the instructions and removed all the cap screws and rotated that cap assembly about 100 degrees. With the stop assembly now located in the back (like the MT) I was able to get it to work without any interference.

3. I then had to do a lot of trimming on the baffle assembly so that it would mount around the larger governor.

4. I then had to do a lot of trimming on the upper cowl fiberglass to get it to fit around the new governor.

It would be nice if the Hartzell governor purchased from Van's for an RV-10 came with the longer arm and was already clocked at the correct location. I suspect that the Van's tech support people are going to get a lot of calls.

Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10


Update on my Hartzell Governor change:

Van's sells two different Hartzell governors for the Lycoming 540 engine, listed as one for the IO-540 and one for the O-540. This is not correct! They should be listed as one for the wide deck engine and one for the narrow deck engine.

The Van's Hartzell IO-540 governor should be labeled Wide deck 540 and the O-540 should be labeled narrow deck 540.

The good news is that after installing my second Hartzell governor in 24 hours it worked perfect. The prop RPM on takeoff was 2700 with the factory adjustment and cruise RPM is very stable. I have about 3 hours on the new governor and it looks like the Hartzell governor does a better job of holding RPM.

Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10

woxofswa 08-20-2016 11:59 AM

Thanks Rob, I've posted that too. I found out about the catalog glitch from Hartzell tech support who expressed that for a while they have wished Van's would both correct the listings and list the exact Hartzell part number as well.

I have passed the message to Scott R and he said he would look into it.

Auburntsts 08-20-2016 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woxofswa (Post 1105006)
Thanks Rob, I've posted that too. I found out about the catalog glitch from Hartzell tech support who expressed that for a while they have wished Van's would both correct the listings and list the exact Hartzell part number as well.

I have passed the message to Scott R and he said he would look into it.

I got an email from Van's yesterday confirming the "O" model is for the narrow deck 540 and the "IO" model is for the wide deck 540. They also stated that they plan to discontinue selling the "O", narrow deck model as the D4A5 engines they sell are wide decks.

Aggie78 08-20-2016 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dustyone (Post 1104595)
I have just heard back from MT in Germany.

There is soon to be a new SB31 with expanded serial numbers to address the recent failures.

Although this will mean grounding my aircraft,cudos to MT for responding so quickly.

Letter below:

But we have another issue with the P-8XX-3 series , during operation a flyweight assembly could become loose.
In this case the damaged flyweight assembly will result in an overspeed or underspeed condition .

Shortly we will release the SB 31 because of that issues.
According this SB 31 your governor with the S/N 11G028G is affected .

This modification is free of charge.

If you have any more question , do not hesitate to contact me.


Best Regards

Andreas Seperant

Engineering / Tech Support
MT-Propeller Entwicklung GmbH
Airport Straubing-Wallmuehle
D-94348 Atting - GERMANY
phone: +49( 0 )9429-9409-44
fax: +49( 0 )9429 - 8432
www.mt-propeller.com


Wonder if sending it back to comply with the SB will also reset the 2000 hour/72 month overhaul clock?

Any mention of that?

I have one of the P-8XX MT governors, and am waiting to see the new SB to see if my serial number is in the affected group...my unit will be up against the calendar limit next year.

If I have to send it back due to the SB, I'm not wanting to pull the thing off twice in 6 months...once for this and again for the overhaul...I want to get it all done at once.

It would be good of MT if (as part of the fix) it does reset the overhaul clock...worth the hassle of having to pull it off in the first place, then.

rvbuilder2002 08-20-2016 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woxofswa (Post 1105006)
Thanks Rob, I've posted that too. I found out about the catalog glitch from Hartzell tech support who expressed that for a while they have wished Van's would both correct the listings and list the exact Hartzell part number as well.

I have passed the message to Scott R and he said he would look into it.

My understanding is that the O and IO designations were based on information originally provided by someone at Hartzell (since Van's doesn't have an airplane with a narrow deck there would be now way to personally know).

I am also not aware of Hartzell going beyond wishing, and actually tell anyone that the designation was incorrect.

(but I could be wrong)

woxofswa 08-20-2016 02:58 PM

Scott, no disrespect to you or Van's, which I consider to be the cream of the crop, but I was told that the reason Van's originally sent the narrow deck versions to everybody and was telling them to just reclock them is that the prototype originally had a narrow deck engine. Maybe that is just urban legend. It doesn't really matter.

This avocation has a foundation of new stuff learned everyday. Nobody expects anyone to know everything.

rvbuilder2002 08-20-2016 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woxofswa (Post 1105053)
Scott, no disrespect to you or Van's, which I consider to be the cream of the crop, but I was told that the reason Van's originally sent the narrow deck versions to everybody and was telling them to just reclock them is that the prototype originally had a narrow deck engine. Maybe that is just urban legend. It doesn't really matter.

This avocation has a foundation of new stuff learned everyday. Nobody expects anyone to know everything.

The difference between the wide deck and narrow deck version is the pressure output because the two engines have different gear ratios for the gov drives.

That is the reason for two different gov.

Not already having the correct clocking is is unrelated. The manufacturers will set it to what every you desire but it is not practical to stock a bunch of different parts just for different clocking positions, when they can (relatively) easily be changed.

Not urban legend, but not true.
N410RV still has the same engine it had since first built, and it is the same wide deck engine that Van's currently sells to RV-10 builders.

Dorfie 08-20-2016 03:40 PM

P860-3.
 
Nobody answered this one, so I try again.
Does the MT P860-3 governor work on both wide and narrow deck IO-540's?
Thanks
Johan

Dorfie 08-22-2016 11:56 AM

Even more confused now!!
 
Vans sells P860-3 for IO-540 engine that they sell, which is a wide deck engine.
Per MT application page http://www.mt-propeller.com/pdf/list_gov_e-1057.pdf
P860-3 is for Lyc IO-360-( ) front mounting, ratio 0.895:1 (top of page 2)
P860-19 is for Lyc IO-540, specifically RV10 mentioned, ratio 0.947:1 (middle page 2), with prop MTV-12-B
P880-21 for Lyc IO-540 (n. deck), ration 0.895:1. (bottom page 4)
P884-3 for IO-540 narrow deck, ratio 0.895:1, (bottom page 5)
P884-5 for IO-540 wide deck, ratio 0.947:1. (top page 6)
P884-20 Lyc IO-540- wide deck, ratio 0.947:1. (4 lines down page 6)
These are all RIGHT hand rotation facing the driving pad (which I assume to be clockwise rotation).
All of these except for the RV10 does not have an aircraft type mentioned.
All of these other than the RV10 does not have a propeller mentioned.
I have not seen a front mounted governor on IO-360, but I am no expert on that.
It seems to me that the P860-3 has the correct ratio for the narrow deck engines. Yet VANS sells it for the wide deck engines that they sell.
Hope someone has more insight into this than I have.
Johan

Dorfie 08-22-2016 01:57 PM

Governor RPM
 
Per MT website the max RPM for P-860-3 is 2420+/- 10. Engine spinning at 2700 with 0.895:1 ratio (narrow deck) will give this gov RPM.
Engine spinning 2700 RPM with gov ratio of 0.947:1 (wide deck) will have gov RPM of 2557 (range 2557+/-10).
If this is correct then using P860-3 on wide deck engine will result in over speed. Could this have resulted in the mechanical failures of governors not covered by previous SB?
Were the engines on which the failures occurred wide or narrow decks?
Just wondering. Might be completely off.
Johan

Weasel 08-22-2016 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorfie (Post 1105504)
Per MT website the max RPM for P-860-3 is 2420+/- 10. Engine spinning at 2700 with 0.895:1 ratio (narrow deck) will give this gov RPM.
Engine spinning 2700 RPM with gov ratio of 0.947:1 (wide deck) will have gov RPM of 2557 (range 2557+/-10).
If this is correct then using P860-3 on wide deck engine will result in over speed. Could this have resulted in the mechanical failures of governors not covered by previous SB?
Were the engines on which the failures occurred wide or narrow decks?
Just wondering. Might be completely off.
Johan

My engine was a Narrow Deck

Auburntsts 08-22-2016 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weasel (Post 1105548)
My engine was a Narrow Deck

Ditto -- narrow deck for me too

woxofswa 08-22-2016 09:30 PM

Mine was narrow deck as well. One thing this incident has reinforced to me is that incidents almost never have a single point of failure, but are an accumulation of multiple Ernie Gann-esque events of fate and/or folly that culminate into a fail.
Thankfully nobody got hurt and hopefully we can purge this demon from our ranks.

It's still too early IMHO, to make a definitive final determination of what is going on, but in the meantime, EVERYBODY, wide or narrow, 360 or 540, needs to verify that they have the proper unit for their configuration regardless of receipts, catalog listings, kit inventory, or how perfectly it appears to be operating at the moment. An engine builder told me that he was going to "do his part" by attaching a "big *** placard" to every engine shipped from now on, concerning the PG appropriate for that engine.
We are a community of humans and humans make mistakes, but hopefully we learn from them and move on with a broader safety envelope. Manufacturers need to reevaluate their documentation and what they are shipping out and what their vendors are doing with them. Venders need to know what they are stocking, recommending, and supplying to their customers, builders need to know what their exact needs are, and tech advisors, DARS, and mechanics need to be keenly aware of gotchas. Trust but verify.

Weasel 08-23-2016 05:38 AM

I called MT-USA yesterday and talked a while. There is no differance in any of the P-860-XX governor parts. They all have the same weights, springs, drive rotation, etc and are for pressure to increase pitch props (non-counterweighted). The dash number is for the clocking of the actuator arm position which can be changed in the field, and for the maximum RPM speed whitch also can be changed by a certified shop...he told me how its done and its not rocket science. So as long as if it is set to hold ~ 2700 RPM at max pitch it will work. If not a few changes will make it work. My gov. was set to hold the correct RPM when I installed it new right out of the box. This is why van does not stock a lot of different governors. They can be modified to work on many different applications. He even said the max RPM can be changed some by changing the stop set screw in the field.

Aggie78 08-23-2016 06:52 AM

Did MT indicate when they are going to release the new Service Bulletin with the expanded listing and scope of affected units?

Sometime this week? This month?

I'm not flying the aircraft until I do or do not know if I have a governor with a problem and what the planned SB release date would be nice to know for those of us that have taken this step.

I'm trying to hold off on being 1 of 10,000 calls lighting up their phone system inquiring about it...if the info is going to be put out pretty soon.

Nothing on any of their websites so far...

Thanks.

BillL 08-23-2016 07:00 AM

Data point
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorfie (Post 1105504)
Per MT website the max RPM for P-860-3 is 2420+/- 10. Engine spinning at 2700 with 0.895:1 ratio (narrow deck) will give this gov RPM.
Engine spinning 2700 RPM with gov ratio of 0.947:1 (wide deck) will have gov RPM of 2557 (range 2557+/-10).
If this is correct then using P860-3 on wide deck engine will result in over speed. Could this have resulted in the mechanical failures of governors not covered by previous SB?
Were the engines on which the failures occurred wide or narrow decks?
Just wondering. Might be completely off.
Johan

A 10 friend ordered his engine (new wide deck) and MT gov from Vans. First flight in May. The RPM was ~200 rpm low. 2500ish RPM. RPM should be checked on first flight, or before.

civengpe 08-23-2016 07:01 AM

Rob,
Last week, I was promised it would be published yesterday...:confused:

Michael Wellenzohn 08-23-2016 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillL (Post 1105727)
A 10 friend ordered his engine (new wide deck) and MT gov from Vans. First flight in May. The RPM was ~200 rpm low. 2500ish RPM. RPM should be checked on first flight, or before.

There is however no problem operating the -10 with 2500RPM I have to do this due to noise restriction as standard since Sept. 2013. Max RPM should be checked before first flight like high speed taxing.

Regards
Michael

BigD 08-23-2016 07:58 AM

I received this correspondence from MT this morning, FWIW:

Thank you very much for your message and information.

As fast as possible we will release SB31.

The reason for SB31 is that during operation a flyweight assembly could became loose

The damaged flyweight assembly will result in an overspeed or underspeed condition.



Affected are all governors which are manufactured between April 2010 until July 2013 and which are installed on experimental direct drive engines modified with electronic ignition and /or higher compression piston.



So your governor has the S/N 14G095-G (Manufacturing year 2014) is not affected from SB 31. You can go on with flying.

If you have any more question do not hesitate to contact me.

Best Regards

Andreas Seperant

Engineering / Tech Support

MT-Propeller Entwicklung GmbH

Airport Straubing-Wallmuehle

D-94348 Atting - GERMANY

phone: +49( 0 )9429-9409-44 <tel:%2B49%28%200%20%299429-9409-44>

fax: +49( 0 )9429 - 8432 <tel:%2B49%28%200%20%299429%20-%208432>

www.mt-propeller.com <http://www.mt-propeller.com>

Walt 08-23-2016 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Wellenzohn (Post 1105742)
Max RPM should be checked before first flight like high speed taxing.

The usual result of a high speed taxi test is an unintended first flight :eek:

Weasel 08-23-2016 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woxofswa (Post 1104162)
Mine was also a BPE narrow deck that states "built to D4A5 specs".

I chose low compression 8.5 cylinders over future fuel concerns. I wanted a cruise motor, not a race motor. Data plate states 260 hp.

I seem to recall an issue years ago where Van's was shipping "narrow deck" PG's to wide deck owners who were being told to simply change the clocking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by woxofswa (Post 1104170)
Bendix 1200's for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auburntsts (Post 1104168)
Nope--Slick retard breaker mag with Slickstart on the left, Slick plain on the right

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigD (Post 1105743)
I received this correspondence from MT this morning, FWIW:

Thank you very much for your message and information.

As fast as possible we will release SB31.

The reason for SB31 is that during operation a flyweight assembly could became loose

The damaged flyweight assembly will result in an overspeed or underspeed condition.



Affected are all governors which are manufactured between April 2010 until July 2013 and which are installed on experimental direct drive engines modified with electronic ignition and /or higher compression piston.



So your governor has the S/N 14G095-G (Manufacturing year 2014) is not affected from SB 31. You can go on with flying.

If you have any more question do not hesitate to contact me.

Best Regards

Andreas Seperant

Engineering / Tech Support

MT-Propeller Entwicklung GmbH

Airport Straubing-Wallmuehle

D-94348 Atting - GERMANY

phone: +49( 0 )9429-9409-44 <tel:%2B49%28%200%20%299429-9409-44>

fax: +49( 0 )9429 - 8432 <tel:%2B49%28%200%20%299429%20-%208432>

www.mt-propeller.com <http://www.mt-propeller.com>

Anyone care to venture why they mention electronic ignition and high compression. The failures here do not support the remark.


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