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-   -   Left slick mag with impulse coupling timing (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=135224)

jrs14855 03-02-2016 03:14 PM

Mag
 
I will try to explain this a little more. The impulse coupling is purely mechanical. At low r/m pawls on the impulse coupling engage fixed pins on the mag flange. The impulse coupling spring "winds up" and at a fixed point the pawls disengage and the impulse coupling momentarily rotates the mag at a much faster speed to improve the spark. If the engine starts the impulse pawls stay "retracted". The relationship between magneto drive gear and the impulse never changes. (A key maintains this relationship and there is no adjustment) The relationship between the impulse and the internal magneto timing CAN change. Dirty or damaged breaker point or worn breaker point "cam followers" are among the possible causes. The breaker point cam follower is some type of plastic which does wear causing the timing to change.
This MAY be what is happening to the OP. Whatever the cause, the "firing point" of the impulse has been compromised.
All of the above and much more is what led to the development of the shower of sparks system which eliminates the impulse. There is at least some history of failed impulses destroying engines. Failed impulse fragments fall into the accessory case and can make their way thru the entire engine rather quickly.
The Lightspeed ignition with the crank sensor eliminates this possibility IF you eliminate the impulse mag.

Kato's 8 03-02-2016 04:49 PM

All good points to consider. No pun intended!
I asked a fellow Rv 8 builder who hung his Van's supplied lycoming IO 360 with the same mags installed from lycoming to see when his impulse mag clicked. Guess what? 7 teeth past top center! That's from a new magneto on new engine that has not been run yet, other than test runs at factory. Now I realy don't get what's going on here. Is slick covering up a problem? Or is it realy not a problem at all?

WAustin 03-03-2016 03:00 AM

Slick Magneto Issues
 
There are actually quite a few published issues with Slick magnetos. I found Service Bulletin SB1-12 which described the advancing problem with a range of magnetos (between two serial numbers, which actually is between two dates in 2006 to 2008). There was a cam issue that caused the advancing timing and issues with starting and also high CHT's.

Further investigation on the 'net also allowed me to find a series of magnetos from about May 2011 through to early 2012 that had a similar issue. I had an April 2011 mag that gave me trouble hot starting and I've now swapped it out at 115 hours, for a replacement. The engine has only been started twice on this new mag, once cold and once heat soaked for 15 minutes, hot! Both times starting was great. More data to collect on this.

Pulled the mag apart, used the Slick Overhaul manual, and could find no issue with any of the components. The only thing that was a real give away was the really poor spark from the mag, but there was no "obvious" reason for that given the components were all in spec.

However I knew the mag was advancing, as it had advanced 4 degrees in 4 months. Previously it was 7 degrees advanced. I'll fly a few more hours then recheck the timing.

If you're having trouble with the left mag, check the service bulletin and see if yours is in the serial number range.

Mine was not the only one that has given trouble in our neck of the woods. An RV8 driver came over to me at a recent fly in to say he had the same issues, replaced the mag and never had the same problem again.

It was a frustrating exercise trying to track down why I had such problems hot starting, but finally think the issue is fixed.

Do check the spark plugs too. Mine were champion brand from Lycoming via Vans. Most were around 4400- 4600 ohms, with one at 6600 ohms. Weak spark from the mag and high resistance plugs = poor starting.

The impulse coupling on mine fires off at TDC as expected.

Hopefully the above may assist you or others with starting issues.

Kato's 8 03-03-2016 09:03 PM

I'll be checking service bulletins as suggested. I think right now I'll see how starting and run checks go after the condition inspection is done. My impulse mag is firing 5 teeth past TC. But it most likely was from the beginning because a fellow builder indicates the same thing with brand new and prior to first start on airframe. I will see how it performs again and if engine starting becomes problematic again in 2016 I'll be pulling that mag ad sending out for inspection and adjustment.
Thank you to all for input.
Bill

agirard7a 03-04-2016 07:22 AM

Another issue
 
I have a rebuilt engine not yet started.
When I turn the prop I do not get a strong
Pop or sound from my impulse mag. More like just a click
Sound. Do I need to replace the impulse gear? Can it be rebuilt?

I have experienced in the past a much stronger sound from the
Mag. Maybe something is frozen? Been a while since it was run.

cajunwings 03-04-2016 07:49 AM

{I have a rebuilt engine not yet started. Been a while since it was run}


Might just be the assembly lube on the flyweights. I wouldn't do anything unless you have starting problems.

Don Broussard

RV 9 Rebuild in Progress
Canopy time
N14DB

Russ McCutcheon 03-04-2016 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kato's 8 (Post 1058665)
Help, I'm confused.
I'm told that you should hear the impulse mag click at TDC. Mine occurs 5 ring gear teeth past TDC (approx 12.5 degrees on 142 tooth ring gear) should I ad just? I can move mag to click at that point but then the timing light buzzer indicates at about 37 degrees before TDC instead of 25. This is new factory engine from Van's and I've flown for 132 tach hours over the first year. Starting became problematic. I'm doing condition inspection now using E 50 mag timing buzz box. Plugs looked fine. Filter quite dirty. Plug gaps .022 (range .016-.021).
I'm hoping just cleaning the filter and plugs and adjusting gap will result in easier starting. Also mag sync was off some and I fixed that. Just wondering why that coupling clicks when it does and if I need to do something with it.
Thanks!!

You must have checked your timing before you did anything, what was it? Assuming it started life at 25 BTDC how much did it change and in what direction? This is what I?m always watching/checking at every oil change. I have never actually checked lag angle on my mags, maybe I should. My mags are tagged 25 degrees lag, I time my engine to 20 degrees BTDC so mine should be firing at start up 5 degrees PTDC and it starts fine set like that. I do know that too great a plug gap will result in hard starting; you want .016? not .022? that will make a big difference assuming everything else is ok.

Ron Springer 08-31-2018 10:26 AM

Late Impulse Coupling Snap?
 
I just noticed the same behavior on my magneto as described here and I am trying to determine if it is normal. My magneto is timed to 28 BTDC and the magneto has 25 deg of lag, so you would expect the impulse coupling to snap at 3 deg BTDC. But, it snaps well past TDC. Is this normal or a problem?

The reason I think it might be normal is that someone else reported this for a new engine in this thread, and when I am checking where it snaps, I am just bumping it a degree at a time. That's not exactly what happens during starting.

Thanks!

krw5927 08-31-2018 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Springer (Post 1284932)
I just noticed the same behavior on my magneto as described here and I am trying to determine if it is normal. My magneto is timed to 28 BTDC and the magneto has 25 deg of lag, so you would expect the impulse coupling to snap at 3 deg BTDC. But, it snaps well past TDC. Is this normal or a problem?

The reason I think it might be normal is that someone else reported this for a new engine in this thread, and when I am checking where it snaps, I am just bumping it a degree at a time. That's not exactly what happens during starting.

Thanks!

Are you certain the magneto is timed to 28 degrees BTDC? This is 3 degrees advanced timing, and from the forums over the years, doesn't seem to be a very common practice. Far more common is to retard the magneto timing 2-3 degrees, to 23 or 22 degrees BTDC, in an effort to reduce CHTs in our tightly-cowled RVs.

If timing is retarded 2-3 degrees, and the impulse has a 25 deg lag, then it will snap at 2-3 past TDC. As far as I understand and have experienced, a couple degrees one way or the other won't adversely affect starting (maybe even as much as +/- 5 degrees).

jrs14855 08-31-2018 02:32 PM

Mags
 
It would be very helpful if people would describe their components-in this case magneto manufacturer and engine model- in greater detail.
If you have Bendix mags you probably have a 100 hour inspection on the impulse coupling. Failure of the coupling will likely destroy the engine.
There are some who claim that the latest and greatest coupling does not require the inspection.
In any case wear on the coupling or the pins can cause the lag angle to increase.
I agree with the previous post that 28 degree TDC timing is not a good idea. I ran my 10-1 O 320 for about 75 hours at 22 degrees and then reset the timing to 25 degrees. All this got me was a slight increase in CHT. NO measurable increase in performance.
If you were racing-either Reno or SARL, there might be a slight benefit to the higher timing number, but that will be at the cost of lower TBO.
The angle valve 360's specs called for the timing to be reset to 22 degrees. This occurred many years ago.


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