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IFR Panel Feedback
Hey all,
I'm working with Stein on an IFR panel design for my RV10 and would love feebdback, specifically on - Any items that you think are essential for IFR that are missing, - what switches you like having right in front of you, etc for ease of use, but generally would love thoughts. This design uses the new Aerosport 310 panel with the center throttle quadrant. Here's the panel, then a description of everything after the image: ![]() On the Left:
On the left bottom row:
Center:
The circles on the left side of the center console are environmental controls. Right:
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You understand that the right side Dynon is for a right seat pilot - it's too far away for a left seat pilot to really use, especially in imc.
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Engine Controls?
Are you using standard engine controls or throttle quadrant? You may want to sketch them in to avoid an expensive oops...
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Speaking as someone who has experienced an EFIS roll inverted in IMC, I think backup instruments are missing. Others may feel differently.
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Would you recommend subbing in a third screen in the center instead of the iPad mount so that the layout becomes more symmetrical? |
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http://www.aerosportproducts.com/310panel.htm |
A few thoughts...
The ELT panel indicator must be in reach, so it needs to be in the center area.
Is the iPad necessary? What will it be used for during flight? Thinking through actual flying while sitting in the seat may help with your design. |
Some quick thoughts:
- Co-pilot trim lock out. Good. This also provides a back up trim switch if you break off the trim hat on the pilot stick. Recommend using the same switch (DPDT) to also lock out the flaps from the co-pilot. The RV-10, like all RVs, has a very low flap speed and sticking them out in cruise by accident is not good. - iPad. Fine but - I find the iPad in the cockpit to be far too unreliable to take up such prime panel space. Keep the iPad in your lap or let your co-pilot hold it. - I assume from your traditional key and master switch set up you do not have a backup power distribution scheme other than perhaps the Dynon backup batteries. If so, use the now free panel space where the iPad is to install an altimeter and air speed instrument. - Move the GTN-650 as high in the panel as you can. For the RV-10 this is limited but the center rib, but you can at least move the GTN650 above the audio panel. In practice the GTN-650 feeding the SkyView via the ARINC module means there is little need to rely on the GTN-650 display. You do however still need to plug in the inevitable routing changes from the controllers. - I'm curious on the wider than needed center section. This moves the right display father to the right - thus less usable to the pilot. Carl |
Ipad Mount
I see in you picture you plan on using a ram mount for the iPad. You should look into this and make it integrated in the panel. My friend installed one in a Searey and it looked great.
https://www.flypadmount.com |
IFR panel
I agree that the copilot display cannot be used very easily by the pilot, especially in actual IFR when you want to minimize head movement
I used the panel that came with the kit and have 2 Dynon 10" displays and 1 7". the 10's are to the left and the copilot gets a 7". I don't think a single display will have enough room to show PFD, engine info, and an approach plate |
Chair flying
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As you get closer to a final design, you might consider identifying a DAR and DPE/FSDO for sign-off of the airplane (and you, albeit later.) Given FAR fuzziness, personality, experience, and perception will weight an individual's decision to approve. A design change now is easier, and possibly less expensive, than removing, replacing, or installing equipment later. This also prepares you for the philosophical discussions ("Is it legal? Safe? Smart?") Good luck! |
The A/P Panel and Knob panel will be a pain in the neck where they are. You have to reach really high and over your screen to use them. I would put them below the power controls.
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Where are the fuses or CBs? Do you have a means to slow the trim speed (at climb speeds it's okay; at cruise it's too sensitive)? Do you have a means to disable the trim in the event of a runaway (stuck switch or relay)? |
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Two points: - look for the common failure modes that will take away your panel and design in risk mitigation. Things like having all your panel running off an avionics master, or for that matter some wiz-bang smart power box that is not single point safe and the reliability of the panel components are so much higher they never enter the risk equation. - The battery is the most reliable component in your airplane (assuming you have not abused it). A single master solenoid now makes this highly reliable component far less reliable. Having a way to power the panel if your normal power path fails is a simple example of risk mitigation. For me I have two PC-625 batteries feeding three busses, two busses being left and right panel power, all via independent and alternate paths to the batteries. Both batteries are used for engine start. There are many ways to achieve your reliability objectives so my only recommendation is to first look at the limiting elements in play and work a better design. Carl Dual 10" Dynon SkyViews that have never failed (in service for four years), but I still have traditional Altitude and Air Speed instruments on the panels. |
Put the flap switch so you do not have to move your hand from the throttle to raise or lower them.
Do not mount an iPad in your panel. They only last a few years and when you start to look for a replacement, Apple will have changed the size and connectors. |
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I would consider Avmap EKP V as an economical backup instr. It can do both: EFIS / EADI and GPS nav.
![]() 7" display, cradle, built in battery ![]() |
EFII Programmer
You're going to want to make room for this. Thinking that you are going to pull it out, connect it, and put it away is not realistic. Plus it's a good way to access tons of specific engine data. I couldn't imagine not having quick access to it.
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I've not used Jepp, so I can't opine on the differences in cost or layout. For the 696 there is a one time fee to Jepp, then you buy the subscription. |
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-Marc |
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Truth in lending, I mounted mine basically right in front of me above and to the left of my PFD so I'm arguing this point out of principle. |
Door not locked lights.
The 10's are supplied with magnetic door pins and red lights illuminated tell you that a door is not secure. You really need those.
Best, |
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ditch the 650 and get a 750 with remote GMA35 audio panel
I have a 650 and i never use the darn thing, the 750 is much much better |
My 2 cents
I have really enjoyed working with Stein on our 10 panel. Mike Hilgar did a fantastic job for me. Just gave them the Ok to cut the panel out yesterday. Our panel is all Garmin. 2- G3X touch, GTN 750, GMC307 auto pilot, gam 240audio panel, dual ADHARS, GNC 255A NAV/COM and more. Aerosport symmetrical panel.
We did add a Guardian CO monitor model #353-201P that will display on the PFD. $349. It is a remote mount so as not to take up panel space. Like some said, keep the ELT close by.... We are also going with "vertical power" system also |
My 2c...
1. If you want to use the co-pilot screen, you will want to "cant" it so you have a more direct view. In my case, it is a single piece of Al with 2 bends and a few nutplates. Made all the difference in the world using it as my MFD. 2. There are knobs on the left of the center console. Can't read the labels. However, personally, I would not want them there. I already want all the legroom i can get and there is possible interfere with your knees and your leg. 3. My ipad is mounted on the copilot windshield with a suction cup. On most any airplane, i can mount the ipad in that location, which is why i put it there for consistency. 4. A 750 would definitely be a very nice upgrade over the 650/tablet combo. |
Perhaps you install three 10" Dynon's in the aerosport 310 panel. Imagine if there was an app that could "project"or mirror the ipad screen interactively via bluetooth, to include all gesture capabilities, ie pinch, move, point etc to a Dynon screen. That way the ipad could sit comfortably in the seat-back pouch wirelessly connected to the center 10" Dynon screen. In a perfect world your ipad could be accessed at the push of a button to any one of the three efis displays.
You want some foreflight info, push ipad data to the center screen. The wife wants to watch a movie or fumble through a text (or more realistically check out her facebook status) push ipad data to the far right screen. Angry birds at 10,000' on a dynon....hmmmm Seems a bit far fetched, but all it takes is one person to come up with the app. Could be tomorrow, then your stuck with an ipad at your center console. Side note...took the advice of previous poster to sit in my plane and pretend fly. My wife just walked into garage and laughed at me, then disappeared only to fetch my daughter to come out and laugh at me as well. Warmer in here anyway. Good night, good luck! |
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