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-   -   IFR Panel Feedback (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=134864)

awmuhs 02-21-2016 10:32 AM

IFR panel
 
I agree that the copilot display cannot be used very easily by the pilot, especially in actual IFR when you want to minimize head movement

I used the panel that came with the kit and have 2 Dynon 10" displays and 1 7". the 10's are to the left and the copilot gets a 7".

I don't think a single display will have enough room to show PFD, engine info, and an approach plate

esco 02-21-2016 10:48 AM

Chair flying
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by airmel (Post 1055683)
The ELT panel indicator must be in reach, so it needs to be in the center area...

Thinking through actual flying while sitting in the seat may help with your design.

Concur w/ Mel; you might want to try "chair flying" from co-pilot position as well. Given current arrangement, autopilot controller, heading, alt bugs, etc. aren't accessible from right side of the cockpit. Move to center?

As you get closer to a final design, you might consider identifying a DAR and DPE/FSDO for sign-off of the airplane (and you, albeit later.) Given FAR fuzziness, personality, experience, and perception will weight an individual's decision to approve. A design change now is easier, and possibly less expensive, than removing, replacing, or installing equipment later.

This also prepares you for the philosophical discussions ("Is it legal? Safe? Smart?")

Good luck!

Jesse 02-21-2016 01:54 PM

The A/P Panel and Knob panel will be a pain in the neck where they are. You have to reach really high and over your screen to use them. I would put them below the power controls.

BobTurner 02-21-2016 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sritchie (Post 1055680)
Woah, what's the story there? How did that happen? My plan was to rely on the dual AHRS for backup.

One of the tough questions is, how much backup? Is there a failure mode (like a software bug? Or loss of pitot data?) that can take out both AHRS units? Personally I like a stand-alone system with battery backup, like maybe a GRT mini. That also takes care of the pitot question too.

Where are the fuses or CBs?

Do you have a means to slow the trim speed (at climb speeds it's okay; at cruise it's too sensitive)? Do you have a means to disable the trim in the event of a runaway (stuck switch or relay)?

rleffler 02-21-2016 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sritchie (Post 1055678)
Yeah, my wife is a pilot as well, so we wanted to lay out the system so that we could switch primary displays.

Would you recommend subbing in a third screen in the center instead of the iPad mount so that the layout becomes more symmetrical?

That would be my recommendation. A third EFIS will yield more features than an iPad.

FORANE 02-21-2016 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sritchie (Post 1055680)
Woah, what's the story there? How did that happen? My plan was to rely on the dual AHRS for backup.


Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTurner (Post 1055741)
One of the tough questions is, how much backup? Is there a failure mode (like a software bug? Or loss of pitot data?) that can take out both AHRS units? Personally I like a stand-alone system with battery backup, like maybe a GRT mini. That also takes care of the pitot question too.

Agree with Bob. Mine was not a Dynon nor current generation, but I have heard from others who have had dual screen current generation EFIS and both have failed concurrently.

Carl Froehlich 02-21-2016 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FORANE (Post 1055782)
Agree with Bob. Mine was not a Dynon nor current generation, but I have heard from others who have had dual screen current generation EFIS and both have failed concurrently.

Interesting how our perspective on reliability has changed. Back in the day we blasted off into the clouds with a single, highly unreliable vacuum pump keeping equally unreliable AIs and GSs spinning. Now we have full redundancy (assuming you are not using a 1960 spam can power distribution system) and we worry about what if everything failed. Add stand alone IFR navigators like the GTN-650 to the mix and you have even more redundancy.

Two points:
- look for the common failure modes that will take away your panel and design in risk mitigation. Things like having all your panel running off an avionics master, or for that matter some wiz-bang smart power box that is not single point safe and the reliability of the panel components are so much higher they never enter the risk equation.
- The battery is the most reliable component in your airplane (assuming you have not abused it). A single master solenoid now makes this highly reliable component far less reliable. Having a way to power the panel if your normal power path fails is a simple example of risk mitigation.

For me I have two PC-625 batteries feeding three busses, two busses being left and right panel power, all via independent and alternate paths to the batteries. Both batteries are used for engine start. There are many ways to achieve your reliability objectives so my only recommendation is to first look at the limiting elements in play and work a better design.

Carl
Dual 10" Dynon SkyViews that have never failed (in service for four years), but I still have traditional Altitude and Air Speed instruments on the panels.

N941WR 02-21-2016 08:53 PM

Put the flap switch so you do not have to move your hand from the throttle to raise or lower them.

Do not mount an iPad in your panel. They only last a few years and when you start to look for a replacement, Apple will have changed the size and connectors.

clutch22 02-22-2016 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N941WR (Post 1055831)
Do not mount an iPad in your panel. They only last a few years and when you start to look for a replacement, Apple will have changed the size and connectors.

I have been flying with the same Ipad for 6 years and it still works fine. I too am nearing the date in which I will need to finalize a panel design for my -10. I have been considering putting a tablet next to a G3X Touch PFD (Similar to a side by side efis design). My thinking on this is that the tablet will be used for MFD tasks and it will provide my charts. This panel space could be easily replaced by a second EFIS in the future. I See pro's and con's on both sides, but one thing I am unsure of is - what is the annual cost of jepp subscriptions for the garmins? This may not be a big factor in the decision process, but it is something that I've never found a price on.

Jesse 02-22-2016 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N941WR (Post 1055831)
Put the flap switch so you do not have to move your hand from the throttle to raise or lower them.

Do not mount an iPad in your panel. They only last a few years and when you start to look for a replacement, Apple will have changed the size and connectors.

I agree with both of these points. One, I like having the iPad on my lap so I can pick it up and use both hands to do what I want to do on it. Also, even though you may end up keeping the iPad for 6 years, you may update more often. In the last 6 years I have used no less than 5 iPads for flying. Between breaking, upgrading, etc., I switch them around. I use them for a whole lot more than just the plane too, so that is one of the reasons I upgrade. Number 2, the iPad can overhead easily in direct sunlight. Having it in the panel, certain times of day, it may end up being in direct sunlight. Granted, when it overheats you are obviously not in the clouds, but you could be VFR on top and lose it when you need it. I would much sooner go with a 7" screen in the middle section instead of the iPad.


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