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-   -   Optimizing Center of Gravity for Aerobatics (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=133740)

ronschreck 01-21-2016 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by control (Post 1047292)
What is the consequence of you being in the wrong configuration? Acceptable or managed by extra controls?

Not good. You could exceed the maximum recommended aft CG limit for normal flight.

And Jerry, I appreciate your suggestion about a red plug. I'll do that.

rvbuilder2002 01-21-2016 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronschreck (Post 1047231)
You seem to imply that increasing polar moment of inertia is a bad thing.

Without knowing the effect, it very well could be.

It should be high on the list of concerns for anyone doing modifications that add weight to outer positions on the airplane (such as tip tanks, outboard aux fuel tanks, etc.).
Once flight testing (which I know you are doing, because the resultant handling is the primary purpose you are doing it) has proven that there are no negative influences, then the concern can be set aside.

My concern is that a thread like this might cause people to take a casual attitude regarding polar moment of inertia influences. The are very real and are fully capable of transforming an airplane with good spin recovery in to one where there is no spin recovery.

skylor 01-21-2016 08:55 AM

CG vs Polar Moment of Inertia
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ronschreck (Post 1047266)
... As far as pitch and yaw stability is concerned the addition of 20 pounds at the tail is exactly the same as having a 68 pound passenger aboard.

Just be very aware that while 20 pounds in the tail results in the same CG as 68 pounds in the passenger seat, the polar moments of inertia is significantly greater for 20 lbs in tail (approx. 2200 lb-ft^2) vs 68 lbs in the rear seat (approx 650 lb-ft^2).

Test thoroughly!

Skylor

ronschreck 01-21-2016 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skylor (Post 1047308)
Just be very aware that while 20 pounds in the tail results in the same CG as 68 pounds in the passenger seat, the polar moments of inertia is significantly greater for 20 lbs in tail (approx. 2200 lb-ft^2) vs 68 lbs in the rear seat (approx 650 lb-ft^2).

Test thoroughly!

Skylor

Thanks for your concern. Yes, the moment of inertia is greater with the tail ballast and after testing at gradually greater weights at altitude I have determined that the 20 pounds of ballast changes control response in yaw and pitch and I am pleased with the result. Next project is to DECREASE the roll moment of inertia.

F1R 01-21-2016 12:35 PM

Respectfully
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ronschreck (Post 1047329)
Thanks for your concern. Yes, the moment of inertia is greater with the tail ballast and after testing at gradually greater weights at altitude I have determined that the 20 pounds of ballast changes control response in yaw and pitch and I am pleased with the result. Next project is to DECREASE the roll moment of inertia.

What Skylor and Cheif pilot are respectfully trying to shed light on, is that if you entered an accelerated spin, the 2200 ft-bs vs 650 ft-bs might flatten the spin to a non recoverable point. The extra inertia will pull the tail down/raise the nose if the spin rate was increased either accidentally, or on purpose with ailerons.

Please wear your parachute, while testing thoroughly from a very safe altitude.

Best of luck!

MeAndMyToys 01-21-2016 01:25 PM

Just an idea
 
I'm thinking maybe there could be a way to jettison your extra weight if you were to forget. Maybe a electric solenoid or cable operated valve on the drain tube. Just a slot cut in the tube with an aluminum blade, a small return spring and a light cable or something.

ronschreck 01-21-2016 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeAndMyToys (Post 1047412)
I'm thinking maybe there could be a way to jettison your extra weight if you were to forget. Maybe a electric solenoid or cable operated valve on the drain tube. Just a slot cut in the tube with an aluminum blade, a small return spring and a light cable or something.

Brenden, have you priced lead shot lately! I paid $60 for 25 pounds!

I took the plane up this morning and tried everything I could think of to put it into a flat spin. (By the way, an accelerated spin is not a nose high spin. And it is one of the easiest spins to recover.) I started at 11,500 feet and recovered at 5000 feet. Tried it three times, both directions, with and without aileron input, power on and off. Bottom line... it flies great! And, yes I always wear a chute when doing aerobatics. Is Bill McLean the only one who agrees that this is a good thing? Are there no more experimental pilots out there? Jeeze!

(OK, rant over. Thank you for your patience.) Out.

ChiefPilot 01-21-2016 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronschreck (Post 1047425)
Is Bill McLean the only one who agrees that this is a good thing? Are there no more experimental pilots out there? Jeeze!

I don't think asking questions about your design process and thought process is bad and I haven't seen any comments in this discussion that would imply such a thing. I'd submit that asking these kinds of questions are in fact the kinds of things experimental test pilots actually do as bolting a modification onto the airframe and launching into the wild blue yonder went out of vogue quite some time ago.

You have clearly done the flight testing to validate that you still have sufficient positive stability to meet your needs. Considering that many RVs go through their entire phase one in essentially "point A to point B" flight as you described it earlier, I think you're ahead of the game. Thanks for sharing your idea and engaging in the conversation.

What do you think?

Raymo 01-21-2016 02:00 PM

I'm wondering how you will turn the aircraft on its side to shake that shot out the little hole :D

ronschreck 01-21-2016 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymo (Post 1047440)
I'm wondering how you will turn the aircraft on its side to shake that shot out the little hole :D

There is a drain tube on the bottom of the box. :D


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