VAF Forums

VAF Forums (https://vansairforce.net/community/index.php)
-   RV General Discussion/News (https://vansairforce.net/community/forumdisplay.php?f=2)
-   -   Spruce vs Summit Racing (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=133268)

f14av8r 01-06-2016 05:09 PM

Spruce vs Summit Racing
 
I'm installing some oil system products on my -4. I'm putting in an accumulator and a Half-Raven inverted system. I'm quickly becoming intimately familiar with the various types of hoses and their associated fittings. I'm also shocked at the prices some of our vendors are getting for these products. I put together a list of the piece-parts I needed from Aircraft Spruce and was horrified at the price. So, I went looking elsewhere. I found the car racing world.

Is there something so incredibly special about the types of hoses and fittings that are sold for the aircraft market that they can command such an amazing price premium? Or, or we in the experimental world just paying a premium to buy products that satisfy the requirements of the certificated world without getting any additional quality or value. I think, at least in the world of hoses and fittings, the later is true. Here's an example.

I needed somewhere between 4-6 six feet of hose, end fittings and some other adapter type pieces to hook up my accumulator. I priced those parts at ACS and then, as I said, horrified by the price, I also priced it at Summit Racing. Here's the comparison.

Summit
- #10 stainless hose price per foot - FRA-710010- $10.80 (aeroquip 601 equiv)
- #10 fittings - FRA-220110 $11 (Aeroquip 816 equiv)
ACS
- #10 stainless price per foot - Aeroquip 601 - $19
- #10 816-10D fittings - $40 each.

And, if you buy the Canton Racing Accusump Install Kit (CTR-24-800), you get six feet 601 type hose, two 816 type fittings, and a couple of aluminum adapter fittings for just $88 dollars.

The ACS hose is twice the price of the Summit hose. The ACS fittings are FOUR TIMES as expensive as the Summit hose. This is rubber and machined aluminum we are talking about here so there's no special, proprietary technology at work that I can discern.

So, what did I do? I bought the Canton Install Kit. I received it today. The hose looks exactly like another piece of Aeroquip 601 hose I already had and the fittings look just like the other 816 fittings on my plane.

What am I missing? Is there something so special about the Aircraft Spruce products / aviation specific products that would justify such a price premium?

Sam Buchanan 01-06-2016 05:15 PM

Randy, I've been flying hoses built with AN stuff from our local race shop for nearly twenty years. They have an entire wall of fittings from which to choose. Most of them actually have AN numbers on them but I have no issues with using AN-equivalent fittings. Our applications are low pressure compared to the ratings on the fittings and hose.

I've used 48" race car AN-3 teflon stainless-braided brake hoses to plumb mechanical oil pressure gauges. The assembled hose cost a fraction of buying "aircraft" bits-n-pieces. Used the same source to build my braided teflon AN brake hoses that go from the firewall to the caliper. I've also used Summit, Jegs, and Speedway inventory.

Having an Experimental Airworthiness Certificate gives us the freedom to use common sense in choosing components for our aircraft.

SMRacer 01-06-2016 05:19 PM

Missing?
 
"What are you missing"? Well, nothing NOW. You just broke the code.

As a racer for 15 years, I was familiar with Summit, Pegasus, and others. Believe me, racers are just as concerned with the quality of their components as are aviators.

Jim
RV4 N444JT (For sale)
RV8 N37PK

Robertc 01-06-2016 05:33 PM

I've used some of these fittings. Be careful using them on fuel suction lines. If you measure the hose fitting ID, I found them to be smaller than the aircraft parts. I've had some issues with my AFP fuel injection. When I changed them all out, it improved. It's not the whole problem, but it helped. The non aircraft AN adapter components have nuts with pins to retain them. They will leak if you pressure test them? Just my experience. Bob

lr172 01-06-2016 07:35 PM

I used summit for all of my rubber and teflon hoses and fittings as I have done on several high performance automotive engines. Aeroquip is a high-end brand with good quality (also sold as the higher price leader in automotive HP market). However, brands like Russell and others from Summit are just fine. I used summit brand fittings for many of my AN fittings as well as a few others that were on sale. These fittings are proven in 1,000 of high performance engines that typically have harsher environments than any Lycoming. An aviation hose is a hose used on an airplane, that's all. No special magic requiring "aviation grade" or should I say "Aviation pricing."

One unique requirement that we have that is not found in the racing world is 100LL. An article in the RVator talked about aeroquip rubber hoses breaking down prematurely due to either the lead or a unique additive in 100LL. Aeroquip reformulated the rubber and issued a notice. Half of my lines are teflon (no concerns here) and the others are Summit brand rubber. I don't trust this to last more than a few years in the fuel circuit and will replace it then (likely will replace it with teflon). Fittings are re-usable and it only takes a few minutes to build a hose once you've done it a couple of times.

I have limited experiential data on Summit hoses. However, over the last 10 years, I have seen significant diffences in US produced, quality rubber and "cheap" from China. Certainly not all house brands or even inexpensive rubber, but I have learned to steer clear of much of it. On the other hand, SUmmit has sold so much of this stuff that I can't imagine it is low end. I have experience no noticeable break down on the three hot rods that I have built using it.

Larry

lr172 01-06-2016 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robertc (Post 1043079)
I've used some of these fittings. Be careful using them on fuel suction lines. If you measure the hose fitting ID, I found them to be smaller than the aircraft parts. I've had some issues with my AFP fuel injection. When I changed them all out, it improved. It's not the whole problem, but it helped. The non aircraft AN adapter components have nuts with pins to retain them. They will leak if you pressure test them? Just my experience. Bob

I have had a different experience. I have 70 hours on my O-320. Summit fittings for most oil and fuel lines. I have not noticed a single drip yet. I can't see how the retainer pin used on these fittings could cause a leak. It is nowhere near the seating area. It is just a different method of retaining the nut on the fitting when not assembled.

Larry

sblack 01-06-2016 07:54 PM

I bought summit fittings for my O320 oil system. The straight fittings were fine but the 90 deg npt fittings would only go about one turn into the accessory case. It really doesn't need to be much out of tolerance for a taper fitting to not fit.

I know lots of guys use the summit stuff. Their fittings are mfg'd in China. If the spruce ones are US made then the price difference is understandable, but if they are also made in china then it is a huge ripoff.

6 Gun 01-06-2016 08:18 PM

Summit
 
I buy lots of stuff from Summit and the best thing is FREE shipping on orders over $100.
Bob

Kyle Boatright 01-07-2016 04:53 AM

I made my hoses from Summit Teflon hose and end fittings. They are 15 years old and are holding up well. When I made them, I tested them to several times their normal operating pressure and experienced no problems.

f1rocket 01-07-2016 05:21 AM

I'm not advocating alternative sources one way or another. Do what you are comfortable with. However, we had a Rocket crash here where the fitting from the oil cooler to the engine were from the auto parts world. The fitting to the cooler broke, the engine dumped all the oil overboard, and the engine seized. Just saying.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:12 AM.