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-   -   What's Been Missing at SnF! (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=125055)

DanH 04-28-2015 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rleffler (Post 978525)
I think it's better than them acting as car salesman. :D

Hey, I resemble that remark!


Eagleflip 04-28-2015 06:51 AM

I'm greatly interested in this thread, as I volunteer at SnF and want to see it thrive, especially for fellow RV owners and pilots. I'd like to post a few comments on the "why" we do things at Lakeland, then ask for your input.

First, my name is Sam Huffstetler...I go by the nickname of "Flipper," and I'm a volunteer--and by the way I don't officially speak for SUN 'n FUN! I'm the Chairman for Air Operations, and work with all of the other "airside" chairmen and women to make our event a successful one. I also do the coordination with the FAA and ATC to ensure compliance and safety...and therefore I am in a unique position to answer a few of your questions.

First, the arrival procedure has been honed since the late 70's to incorporate the most easiest way to land a massive number of aircraft in a short period of time. The procedure works well when everyone reads and follows the NOTAM procedures AND the weather cooperates. We do our best to make it an easy arrival...but witness the following events:
- the wayward NORDO Zodiak landing opposite direction
- the blown nose tire on 9R
- the collapsed nose gear on a Lanceair on 9L
- weather clearing ("Start the arrivals!") and unanticipated low ceilings moving in ("Whooooaaaaa!") within 8 minutes of each other

....well, you get the picture. We can't control any of that. For what it's worth, we apologize for the delays.

Why is HB parking cleared out during the airshow? The FAA imposes a (reduced) 2700 by 9000 foot aerobatic "box", e.g. the sterile aerobatic box for our normal air show. The major military jet teams require a 2700 x 12,000 foot box for their shows. That 2700 foot dimension is measured from the runway centerline and extends 1500 feet south and 1200 north, by FAA concurrence. (The guidance for all airshow production is found in the FAA 8900.1, Vol 3, Chapter 6...it's really fun reading...;) )

No matter which "box" is used, the homebuilt parking area extend well into the south side. Thus that area has to be clear of spectators. Is there a solution?

We aren't going to change the FAA's rule on this, but we could move HB parking to another location...but guaranteed it would be a far longer hike to almost every other venue at SnF, including the core area. Plus the grass and sod in the present area is in far better shape than any other parking area at SnF, a consideration for tight wheel pants.

"The prices are too high...." They are higher than outside the venue...but consider this. It takes $2 million dollars to open the gates for SUN 'N FUN....that's no exaggeration. Even though there are only 20 full time employees and over 3500 volunteers, the cost of just making this event happen are staggering. Porta potties, golf carts, paying for ATC services, fire extinguishers, rental cars for performers, gas for the warbirds...it all adds up.

Also consider this--SnF is a 501c3 non-profit entity, which funds a aviation education and training high school (on campus at KLAL...) We fund some of tomorrow's aviators, at little cost to them. This is a worthy endeavor!

We aren't perfect, by a long shot....so please--give me some feedback as to what needs to be fixed. If you can be specific, I promise to address the issues with the SnF staff.

Most of all--thanks to everyone that came to our international air exposition! We hope to provide an even better event in 2016!

h&jeuropa 04-28-2015 07:32 AM

Flipper,

This was our first time flying in. We are from Michigan and unfamiliar with all the airports and geography of Florida. We had departed X30 and were fairly low, around 2000 MSL coming towards Lake Parker and descended to 1200 MSL. We had difficulty finding Lake Parker and actually started to use another industrial plant that is northwest of Lake Parker before we realized our error. In looking at the procedure this morning, the only mention of Lake Parker's location relative to LAL is on the sketch. There also is an intersection, VPKER but that also is only shown on the sketch. Had we realized either of those we could have made a waypoint. The lat long of the power plant is given also only on the sketch, but it is somewhat tedious to input lat long in our EFIS. So our suggestion is to make the location of Lake Parker more obvious in the text of the Notam.

There is no location of Lake Hancock given, so if one is required to fly to it and hold, it would be easier if one could program a waypoint.

We found that to follow the road north of the baseball fields, you really needed to pass on the south side of the power plant. As stated, the funny shape of Lake Palmer makes the definition of the north shore a bit confusing.

Not meaning to nitpick, but hope this might improve the procedure.

We stayed in HBC. The addition of a couple of hooks in each shower stall and some hooks or shelves near the sink would improve the showers. But not a big deal.

All in all, we had a good time. Saw lots of neat stuff, many friends and Mary Jane and her crew are terrific!

Jim & Heather
Europa XS

Eagleflip 04-28-2015 07:50 AM

Identifying the lakes via some sort of fix is a GREAT idea....I'll forward the suggestion to my ATC contacts.

Pat Hatch 04-28-2015 11:13 AM

Flipper,

I really appreciate your comments. I have been coming to SNF for years, mainly because I live in Florida and it's just too convenient! I totally understand all of the points that you made and I agree entirely. I think you guys do a great job with what you have to work with. And I commend your dedication and hard work! In the main, I really enjoy the show and find it's a good value.

My one observation/criticism is this: the afternoon airshow program is way too long. I realize there are probably a lot of people who would like the airshow to be even longer, but has anyone ever considered doing a marketing survey to see? I would vote for a 2-hour show, max 2 1/2 hours. Additionally, making the show shorter would alleviate some of the operational problems.

SmilingJack 04-28-2015 12:45 PM

Sam, i too enjoyed flying to the show and do overall think ATC did a great job.

However, there is one exception:

What is your view on why ATC did NOT use any holding over either Lake Paker or Lake Hancock on Friday morning after the Lancair gear collapse?

When I recieved the ATIS it indicated landing runway 9L, when I entered the area and was monitoring arrival thats when it all fell apart. The Statements were just to "Hold" and not to fly to the powerplant at Lake Parker.

I was now in between both lakes. So I flew over to Lake Hancock and since I didnt hear any direction on hold AT Lake Handcock or Hold AT Lake Parker I felt it best to call up Bartow tower and let then know I am heading into there airspace. They then told me to make sure I hold out to the north and be aware they too have traffic inbound to there airport.

So now after dodging all kinds of aircraft between KLAL and KBOW I have to find a place to stay out of the way and make up a holding pattern of my choice.

I really feel if ATC followed the NOTAM and made us hold at the 2 Lakes, then once they were "Full" informed new arriving pilots that the airport is closed and not to enter the areas to include both lakes things might have been a little safer.

Again, the guy who was on the arrival frequency was good, informative and calming. But I think the ATC HQ for the event should have came up with a plan quickly. Especially since - as you discribed not 45 mintues earlier y had to deal with low ceilings and an IFR airport.

Thanks for the post! Its always great to see someone who wants the "info" to make a safe and fun event.

airmel 04-28-2015 12:59 PM

Cleanliness of potties & showers
 
Flipper,

Thank you for your comments and your asking for input. We like to camp in HBC, but the condition and cleanliness of the port-a-potties and the showers has kept me away lately (we flew down for the day this year). Several years ago the showers were in a big tractor-trailer rig with nice hot water and room to dry off and put on clean clothes. Over the last few years, the shower facilities have deteriorated to small trailers with pull chain water flow (sometimes it's either hot or cold, but not anything in between), muddy floors, and cramped conditions making getting dressed without getting wet or dirty again a real challenge! The port-a-potties, well, last year the cleaning schedule was not daily shall we say, making for ripe conditions and not much toilet paper. The waterless hand cleaner found in many of them is greatly appreciated though! So... this year I jump out of the airplane at 9:15am (Wednesday), get my wrist band, go through the gate at HBP, find the first (and only close-by) port-a-potty and... not serviced and NO toilet paper. Seems nothing has changed unfortunately. I also noticed that the port-a-potties in HBC were nowhere close to where the airplanes were parked (and campers camping). At least last year there were a couple near the road and old "ditch" area.

Okay, I've had my rant. Thanks for listening. Overall, we enjoy Sun 'N Fun and seeing everyone there. But it would be a nice improvement to have clean, toilet paper stocked port-a-potties, and decent shower facilities for camping!

carolsyracuse 04-28-2015 01:11 PM

tipping for fancier portapotties
 
I was annoyed at the attendants stationed at the fancy portapotties between the display hangars with their tip jars. I am sorry, but the admittance price should include bathroom facilities. I looked for portalets without attendants, but their were none to be found around the hangars.. I did discover one trailer by itself and the attendants were;t there and amazingly everything inside was just fine.:)

bsacks05 04-28-2015 01:53 PM

Showers
 
I had two nice showers this year at SNF both at the permanent shower building in the woods behind vintage parking. Not as close to HBC but no waiting, hot/cold, great pressure, hooks, bench.
Since I was headed in that direction anyway it was very convenient. And yes, no TP at the PPs almost became an issue with me. :eek:

Flyrod 04-28-2015 03:26 PM

Great HBC Gang
 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-k...ew?usp=sharing

MJ and some of the great volunteers of HBC enjoying the Volunteer's dinner on Sunday night. These people did a great job as they do every year. I have been flying in for many years and truly enjoy the experience. Yes.... I even enjoy the Arrivals and Departures.

Rumor is the 2016 Sun-N-Fun will be shifted back to the beginning of April for some cooler weather. It was not bad this year but it is usually cooler closer to March.

Lites has been at the helm for a few years now and has done a good job by all volunteers I have spoken with. My only suggestion would be to lower the prices a little now that the organization is debt free. I think it would be a good surprise for both the exhibitors and attendees which would translate into better satisfaction and more volume.


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