VAF Forums

VAF Forums (https://vansairforce.net/community/index.php)
-   Safety (https://vansairforce.net/community/forumdisplay.php?f=100)
-   -   Near-miss (or hit) with RV in the Denver area (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=124021)

Bavafa 03-23-2015 01:11 PM

A couple of weeks ago on a flight back from Monterey and on flight following, I was instructed to make a 20 degrees right turn for traffic. The 20 degrees turn put me directly on the path of plane coming ahead 400 feet above us, according to the info received from my ADS-B. I was very surprised not to get any warning from the Norcal about that traffic and he did not seem to go any either as he was not making any direction or altitude change. Of course as we got closer, I turned farther to the right and lowered my altitude for a bit more comfortable distance. Had I not made directional change, we would have been pretty much on the same path, only separated by a few hundred feet, which is still reasonable but a heads up warning would have been nice.

Vlad 03-23-2015 01:12 PM

The more you fly the faster you get used to lesser separation distances.When I started flying my RV in 2011 I needed a lot of "personal airspace" around me. Not so much now just enough to see and avoid safely. And I am in a 500-is-a-lot-camp :)

ccrawford 03-23-2015 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jetjok (Post 969745)
Vertical separation? Two aircraft cruising at an altitude above 3000 AGL should have had at least 1000' vertical separation. Were you at cruise?

Not likely to be above 3000 AGL in that area unless you are on a longer trip and transitioning the area. Like he said, there's quite a few airports in that area so lots of planes coming down to pattern altitude or coming from pattern altitude. 3k AGL is 10k MSL in this part of Colorado.

N941WR 03-23-2015 01:36 PM

As I often tell people, there are a lot of aircraft flying around without electrical systems. Thus, they have no requirement for a transponder or ADS-B (or capability to install either) AND they will be allowed inside the mode-C ring, under controlled airspace after 2020. However, aircraft with electrical systems and mode-S transponders but with no ADS-B won't be allowed in that same airspace. I'm not sure why that makes sense to the rule makers but apparently it does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by colojo (Post 969533)
Brad, I forgot about that exemption but you're absolutely right. One more reason not to trust FF and TCAS. Thanks for reminding me.
...

Shouldn?t the controller have picked up a primary target on his radar, even without a transponder / ADS-B and been able to give you a warning that something was out there?

ColoRv 03-23-2015 04:30 PM

It was a crazy day Saturday for traffic around Denver. I flew over to Longmont for some skydiving adventures and the traffic was unreal. Sunday wasn't a whole lot better. Spring has sprung and all the indians were out in force.

ChiefPilot 03-23-2015 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad (Post 969748)
The more you fly the faster you get used to lesser separation distances.When I started flying my RV in 2011 I needed a lot of "personal airspace" around me. Not so much now just enough to see and avoid safely. And I am in a 500-is-a-lot-camp :)

Especially at a cooperative merge ;)

Vlad 03-23-2015 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefPilot (Post 969841)
Especially at a cooperative merge ;)


:D


designrs 03-29-2015 04:05 AM

Flight following is under no obligation to provide separation to VFR traffic. It is a optional courtesy service as they are often too busy providing required IFR separation. I've heard of a controller quoted saying that they see conflicting VFR courses daily but do not call them out... the "big sky" theory.

Transponders that automatically switch on a 500 AGL are great in case you forget.

ADS-B is awesome, but ADS-B OUT is needed to provide comprehensive and useful information. See portable or "remotely installed" units from SkyGuard, including the new units with 2020 approval for less than $1,500 (previous generation out units were only about $750). Personally I like the SkyGuard for ADS-B OUT and Stratus / ForeFlight for ADS-B IN.

Looking outside is essential, especially in the pattern and around airports. That said, "See and avoid" is extremely limited. One flight in busy airspace with ADS-B IN/OUT will show how much you DON'T see, even when knowing exactly where the other aircraft is. Not to mention that most non-airport mid-air collisions occur from the rear or rear 3/4 which are in your blind spot anyway. I could post images of 8 aircraft within 5 nm and 2,000 feet, a regular occurrence in some areas.

ADS-B is also helpful in assessing what areas are less busy and choosing flight paths and altitudes accordingly. It is great to provide pre-emptive extra separation. e.g. slight modifications of your altitude or course for extra separation.

Most of my "near misses" (not close enough to be incidents) have been within Class-D where the controller called out the traffic seconds before or simultaneously with the conflict.

turbo 03-29-2015 07:34 AM

Mid airs are rare, bird strikes are much more likely. Keep your scan outside %80 of the time. The view outside is much better than inside unless Susie is along for the distraction. :)

Remember, it only takes 10' to miss them.

colojo 03-31-2015 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N941WR (Post 969756)
Shouldn?t the controller have picked up a primary target on his radar, even without a transponder / ADS-B and been able to give you a warning that something was out there?

After I advised the controller about what happened, he told me he saw a faint target two miles behind me. But that's all.

I agree with those who say that ATC is under no obligation to provide traffic advisories during VFR FF. Part of my point was to remind everyone not to get complacent when under FF.

Except for occasional trips to Greeley, I rarely fly across Denver. Most of my trips are out of town. But I spoke with my flight instructor about what happened and he went over a few things with me on the backside of the Denver Terminal Area Chart. He told me that the spot where this happened is probably one of the busiest VFR hot spots along the entire Front Range. He suggested that I fly around the Denver Class B to the east next time I go to Greeley, especially on weekends. I've done that before and it's definitely a lot quieter out there!


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:22 AM.