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-   -   Build on or replace? (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=120860)

ShortSnorter 12-21-2014 04:45 PM

Build on or replace?
 
Good Evening All - I'll cut to the chase.

I smeared the head of a 470AD4-7 on the VS-411PP (hinge bracket). I drilled the head and popped it out with a punch but could not for the life of me get the tail/shank out. I slowly drilled with a #40 bit a little at a time and trying to push it out after drilling a bit. I finally drilled through the rivet and ended up knocking/prying the shop head off with flush dykes. When the remnants of the rivet were finally removed, the shop head side of the hole seems to have a slight "countersink" appearance. The hole itself was not enlarged or mishaped from drilling. My question is: Can I replace with the same rivet? Replace with a slightly longer rivet to fill the slightly swollen hole? Start over? Below are some pictures of the empty hole and with a new rivet inserted. Thanks for all the help!

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Jesse 12-21-2014 05:25 PM

Put the same size in or a half size longer.

rvbuilder2002 12-21-2014 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse (Post 943576)
Put the same size in or a half size longer.

I agree.
Same size will probably produce just a slightly thinner shop head but should still meet minimum spec.

az_gila 12-21-2014 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse (Post 943576)
Put the same size in or a half size longer.

AD4 (1/8) rivets don't come in half sizes do they?

Use the next size up...

rvbuilder2002 12-21-2014 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by az_gila (Post 943653)
AD4 (1/8) rivets don't come in half sizes do they?

Use the next size up...

No, that is what rivet cutters are for.....:D

AltonD 12-22-2014 04:59 AM

Whenever, wherever possible, use a hand squeezer. When you first start building, the hands are pretty weak. By the time you finish, you will not even think about squeezing a AD4 rivet.

ShortSnorter 12-22-2014 05:16 AM

Thanks
 
Thanks for input, I figured that would be the consensus but just wanted to verify.

Tom Martin 12-22-2014 05:38 AM

For a part like this it is hard to beat the old C frame for setting a rivet. Support the spar with blocks etc to get it level and then using a hammer set the rivet. The beauty of using a hammer is that you can start with one small hit, take a look at the rivet, adjust, hit again, adjust etc, until you have the perfect shop head.
I use a hammer to back rivet many parts on the airplane, the firewall of the RV14 is a good example of where back riveting using a simple hammer works really well. Yes it is slower then using the rivet gun with a back rivet set but if you have to drill out a few missed rivets the time advantage is gone. In this case I do it free hand, using only the "set' from the C frame and not the frame itself.
Do not get me wrong, I do not use a hammer to set that many rivets on the airplane but sometimes it makes sense, and this may be one of those cases.
As always, practice on some scraps first.
There is a certain amount of pleasure in hand setting a rivet, and actually watching the shop head develop.
It is not that often that you can hit an airplane with a hammer, if feels good!

ShortSnorter 12-23-2014 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Martin (Post 943672)
For a part like this it is hard to beat the old C frame for setting a rivet. Support the spar with blocks etc to get it level and then using a hammer set the rivet. The beauty of using a hammer is that you can start with one small hit, take a look at the rivet, adjust, hit again, adjust etc, until you have the perfect shop head.
I use a hammer to back rivet many parts on the airplane, the firewall of the RV14 is a good example of where back riveting using a simple hammer works really well. Yes it is slower then using the rivet gun with a back rivet set but if you have to drill out a few missed rivets the time advantage is gone. In this case I do it free hand, using only the "set' from the C frame and not the frame itself.
Do not get me wrong, I do not use a hammer to set that many rivets on the airplane but sometimes it makes sense, and this may be one of those cases.
As always, practice on some scraps first.
There is a certain amount of pleasure in hand setting a rivet, and actually watching the shop head develop.
It is not that often that you can hit an airplane with a hammer, if feels good!

Thanks Tom, I'll give the C Frame a shot!

JonJay 12-23-2014 10:11 AM

I drove all my main wing spar rivets with a C-frame. 1/8" rivets will set like butta'

aarvig 12-23-2014 12:45 PM

Hmm.....
 
Is it me or does that hole look slightly countersunk? If so you need to rethink the repair. A doubler may be necessary.

BobRv4 12-23-2014 02:06 PM

next time
 
No comment on this one, but next time, if you need to drill out a #4 rivet, drill all the way thru with a (3/32") drill, then drill off the head. Then try knocking out the shank. Sometimes drilling a small hole help the rivet relax, making it easier to knock out. hope this helps, good luck bob

sblack 12-23-2014 05:05 PM

I presume you will clean up any burr or scratch on the damaged surface right? The other rivets look real nice:o

ShortSnorter 12-24-2014 06:47 AM

The wealth of knowledge contained in these forums as well as the willingness to share said knowledge is mind blowing. With that said:

-I think that the picture may create an illusion of the hole being worse than it actually was. The missing paint surrounding the hole adds to the "counter sink" effect. Although there was a slight counter sink feel to the hole, it is definitely not counter sunk or dimpled.

-Luckily I have many local resources available that I converse with on a nearly a daily basis. I brought the spar to two separate IA's (one of whom has been doing structural repair for 45 years!) who both said to just drive another rivet (which I did).

-Tom - I never figured out the C-Frame method. I've see videos of it being done on the EAA website but either I'm not understanding correctly or my tools are not compatible (rivet set, rivet gun, c frame, etc...) FWIW, I've got the Cleaveland C-Frame and basic rivet sets as well. I tried putting the cupped set in the bottom of C-Frame but just wasn't comfortable with the lateral movement.

In the end, the further I get in to building the more detailed my eye is when looking at production aircraft (almost daily) and realize they are far from perfect when it comes to rivets.

rvbuilder2002 12-24-2014 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobRv4 (Post 944069)
No comment on this one, but next time, if you need to drill out a #4 rivet, drill all the way thru with a (3/32") drill, then drill off the head. Then try knocking out the shank. Sometimes drilling a small hole help the rivet relax, making it easier to knock out. hope this helps, good luck bob

I agree with the 3/32 drill part, but I recommend people not drill all the way through.
A step by step procedure is detailed in construction manual Section 5 available HERE.


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