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-   -   Tighten Your Tie-Wraps! (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=119374)

RVTrumpet 11-08-2014 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColoRv (Post 931485)
Obviously there are tie wraps out there that will work firewall forward. There are far more that will do what the photo above did.

Just for clarification, the damage done in the photo above was not a result of the type of tie-wrap used but was because it slipped forward off a larger tube and onto a smaller tube causing the tie-wrap to be very loose and vibrate against the aluminum tube. If the tie-wrap would have been tight to where it couldn't vibrate, even against that aluminum tube (not recommended at all), it would not have caused that much damage and possibly no damage at all.

Bill_H 11-08-2014 09:14 AM

Use them properly. If you are wrapping them around something, put Rescue Tape on the something first. Two ties can make an excellent standoff to hold things in place with no chafing. Sheesh!

Bill Dicus 11-08-2014 10:11 AM

Tie wraps
 
Strong opinions have been expressed in this thread, and do not always agree with real world experience - at least mine. We have a 1981 Pitts S-2A which was purchased new with many tie wraps in the FWF area. In about 1300 hours we have added many new tie wraps and replaced some that looked or felt marginal. Not a single one has broken. That's 33 years. Many are the common hardware store variety. If they tie around a motor mount tube or other metal structure they are placed over a layer of rubber tape. We've had no chafing or damage to metal or to wire bundles. My RV-8 is just finished and the Chief inspector from the FAA loves tie-wraps FWF and favors using them extensively. I used Adel clamps in some areas but also a lot of tie wraps. Hopefully they'll last as well on the -8 as they have on the Pitts. After some flying time has accumulated I'll try to give a follow up. Anybody else have some long term real experience to share?

rvmills 11-08-2014 10:39 AM

Same experience Bill, just shorter term. During my first Condition Inspection following my purchase, the A&P/IA had me remove all the tie wraps that were directly on the engine mount, and reinstall new ones with rescue tape or fuel hose segments protecting the mount. Showed me how to make standoffs with them as well, and to use adels, when that is a good solution. I take a good look at installed ties and clamps to look for breakage and slippage when the cowl is off as well. Knowing what tie wraps can do to unprotected metal is a good lesson from the OP.

Cheers,
Bob

RV7A Flyer 11-10-2014 08:59 AM

These work very well for me in a few locations FWF.

Mark Dickens 11-10-2014 09:08 AM

My 2008 G36 Bonanza has them FWF in many places... If you get the blue tefzel tie wraps, they'll survive that environment just fine, but they are expensive. As in all things, it depends!

Low Pass 11-10-2014 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColoRv (Post 931432)
Don't use tie wraps. I am shocked your DAR signed off on that plan. Mine told me long before he ever saw my plane, a single tie wrap firewall forward and you fail the inspection.

Interesting. I had an FAA inspector sign off on my plane and I had plenty in the engine compartment. Guess I've cheated death now 14+ years with them there. (Not the same ones, of course.)

RV7A Flyer 11-10-2014 12:10 PM

Quote:

I am shocked your DAR signed off on that plan. Mine told me long before he ever saw my plane, a single tie wrap firewall forward and you fail the inspection.
Why? Is there some regulation that says you can't have tie wraps FWF?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Low Pass (Post 931887)
Interesting. I had an FAA inspector sign off on my plane and I had plenty in the engine compartment. Guess I've cheated death now 14+ years with them there. (Not the same ones, of course.)

In another thread it was pointed out quite forcefully that "it is not an FAA inspectors (or DAR for that matter) responsibility to inspect a builders airplane on the premise of making a judgement on whether it is in a condition for safe operation or not. His only official duty is to make a judgement on whether the airplane meets all of the certification requirements as spelled out in FAA Order 8130.2G" (I'm not picking on the original poster with this quote, just using it to make a point).

Then along comes a DAR who makes up a new rule about tie wraps and threatens failure if there's even *one* FWF. Not "don't use them directly on X parts, because they'll wear through the part and that's unsafe" or anything like that. Nope...can't have 'em. Period.

What gives with inspectors or DARs making up their own rules? Some examples I recall:

No nylock nuts FWF (despite the fact that Lycoming ships their engines with nylock nuts in certain places)
Refusal to accept nylocks on props (as shipped from Hartzell)
"Requirement" for red fuel caps
Insisting on .040 lockwire on props, despite Hartzell service instructions specifying .032
Requiring "wet compasses" in EFIS-equipped aircraft
Requiring A&P "sign-offs" prior to the DAR doing the inspection
*Numerous* "challenges" to Van's plans (forcing builders to change a design in some small or large way which deviates from the kit plans...changing rudder stop locations, using a single pin in the seat back hinge and safetying it,
How about the guy in this thread?

The list goes on and on...wildly varying standards of inspection, huge discrepancies between the regulations and what some require of builders (essentially holding their A/W certificate hostage unless/until the builder complies), fabricated rules, regulations or best practices, etc.

And on the other hand, there are highly competent, skilled, knowledgeable DARs and inspectors out there who do a great job (both at the formal paperwork and at helping ensure the aircraft is safe).

Nearly 9,000 RVs flying now, you'd think that EAB inspections would be getting significantly more consistent FSDO-to-FSDO, inspector-to-inspector, but I don't see it...

edbooth 11-10-2014 01:40 PM

Ty-wraps
 
When using Ty-wraps, I first run a piece of heat shrink over it on the section that tightens on the tube. kinda protects the tubing and have not noticed any chaffing in many many hours.

Weasel 11-10-2014 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RV7A Flyer (Post 931948)
Why? Is there some regulation that says you can't have tie wraps FWF?



In another thread it was pointed out quite forcefully that "it is not an FAA inspectors (or DAR for that matter) responsibility to inspect a builders airplane on the premise of making a judgement on whether it is in a condition for safe operation or not. His only official duty is to make a judgement on whether the airplane meets all of the certification requirements as spelled out in FAA Order 8130.2G" (I'm not picking on the original poster with this quote, just using it to make a point).

Then along comes a DAR who makes up a new rule about tie wraps and threatens failure if there's even *one* FWF. Not "don't use them directly on X parts, because they'll wear through the part and that's unsafe" or anything like that. Nope...can't have 'em. Period.

What gives with inspectors or DARs making up their own rules? Some examples I recall:

No nylock nuts FWF (despite the fact that Lycoming ships their engines with nylock nuts in certain places)
Refusal to accept nylocks on props (as shipped from Hartzell)
"Requirement" for red fuel caps
Insisting on .040 lockwire on props, despite Hartzell service instructions specifying .032
Requiring "wet compasses" in EFIS-equipped aircraft
Requiring A&P "sign-offs" prior to the DAR doing the inspection
*Numerous* "challenges" to Van's plans (forcing builders to change a design in some small or large way which deviates from the kit plans...changing rudder stop locations, using a single pin in the seat back hinge and safetying it,
How about the guy in this thread?

The list goes on and on...wildly varying standards of inspection, huge discrepancies between the regulations and what some require of builders (essentially holding their A/W certificate hostage unless/until the builder complies), fabricated rules, regulations or best practices, etc.

And on the other hand, there are highly competent, skilled, knowledgeable DARs and inspectors out there who do a great job (both at the formal paperwork and at helping ensure the aircraft is safe).

Nearly 9,000 RVs flying now, you'd think that EAB inspections would be getting significantly more consistent FSDO-to-FSDO, inspector-to-inspector, but I don't see it...

Very well stated


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