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Cleaveland Tool Package: What would you change?
Link to the Cleaveland Tool Package
Howdy all! I'm at the point where I want to order my tools, and the pricing between all the shops I've looked at seems to be pretty consistent. I decided though to go with the Cleaveland Tool set though, since their hand squeezer seems to be the best, and the quality of clekos is supposedly superior. For an RV14, what would you swap out, delete, or add? Cost really isn't an issue for good tools, but I think I've decided against the pneumatic squeezer and DRDT-2: I just think I'll have more fun hand squeezing and have had no issues with a normal C-frame! |
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What I did for my RV10 was to call them up and let them know what I was building, what tools I already had, and what they would recommend.
They came up with a great package for me, and had me on my way. No matter how complete your initial kit is, you'll be ordering more tools as time goes on! |
Tools
Welcome Michael
Cleveland is awesome. Avery is also. From the list, you will use everything. +1 on the pneumatic but you can always buy it later I would consider a few tools to add. Longeron Yoke Two more microstop countersinks A lot more 3/32" clekos Tank and substructure dies ( maybe) |
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In another thread, someone said the following: Quote:
Also, interesting to see ringing endorsements for the pneumatic squeezer! Do ya'll think the quality of rivets is improved by this tool? |
Be sure to compare the pneumatic squeezer to the "main squeeze", and not any other regular squeezer. The main squeeze is different, and I would suspect the differential is not as great.
I too am curious about the 1 flute vs. 3 flute thing, and what is chatter? Thanks for the thread, I've been pondering the same questions myself! |
I recently ordered from Cleavland.
Nice folks. Give em a call. So far the only thing I should have done differently is to upgrade to the notched (the more expensive) microstop and the single flute/hole countersinks. In fact I'm going to go ahead and order them. If you don't have it already get their catalogue. I found it better than the online one. |
I purchased my tools used from a former builder, and it was the avery toolkit however I have purchased quite a few things from Mike at Cleaveland. They are great folks.
So far on the RV14, depending on how you decide to rivet the top wing skins, you may want to consider the BB46 Back Riveting bar and an extended 12" back rivet set (RSB12). I did the center portions of the top skins this way. If you have a more capable helper then you may want to just use the conventional tools that are in the kit and have someone hold the gun while you hold the bar in which case you won't need those two. The toolkits they have currently are very well thought out in my opinion. You end up using almost everything. On the subject of dies, I have gone back to using just the regular dimple dies (Cleaveland as well) rather than the substructure or tank dies. |
Chatter
I don't know that the pneumatic set rivets are any better. Many airplanes were and are built without one. I know I love mine and very quickly learned to feather the trigger so it is very easy to control. It's also easy to screw up.:D
Get single flute cutters. One each size up to #8 The other chatter. When they chatter the hole gets multiple cuts resulting in a rough countersink. The single flute cutters don't chatter. |
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I like a pneumatic squeezers just as much as the next guy,and they are necessary when working on heavy aircraft. You have to be very careful to not damage light structure while using them. I have a Tatco hand squeezer and use it for everything on my RV. |
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Are the microstop cages for countersinking that DO NOT feature the teeth pretty worthless, or do they work just as well minus the feeling of more precise accuracy of adjustment? |
For anyone not familiar with the single flute countersinks and considering them, I recommend finding the video Mike Lauritsen produced on the Cleaveland site, showing how to use them. I use them and think they're great, but it's necessary to know that they cut much more aggressively than other types, so a lighter touch technique is called for.
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Microstops
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On the second, you have time. Watch the VAF classifieds and Ebay. You can save money watching for additional tools. All three of my microstops are the ones with notches and all three were purchased used. |
I'd get one of these (swivel flush rivet set):
http://www.amazon.com/Boulderfly-Swi...dp/B00GVDTESO/ Plus more #30 and #40 bits, a good scale, a cheap digital scale for weighing tank sealant, safety glasses, hearing protection, a good respirator, a right angle drill adaptor and screwdriver adaptor, more bucking bars, and more countersink cutters. I'd stick with a hand squeezer and C frame. |
consider a rivet fan and a jig for drilling nut plates. Can you get by without them? Sure, but you will use both many many times and be thankful you had them.
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That was part of the reason why I recommended earlier to get their catalog. I found it much more user friendly than the website. Until I got the catalog, I didn't even know there were two microstops to choose from. __________________ |
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As far as cages... I have both versions and IMO I have no preference. The only difference that matters to me is the foot - some are smaller than others. Some also have a layer of plastic on the foot vs. bare metal rubbing against your work piece. |
I purchased the Cleaveland tool package just over a year ago for my RV-7 build. Can't comment on RV-14 specifics but I'm happy to comment on the Cleaveland package in general, there are a few things I'd do differently.
Firstly though, I'd like to say you've made a good choice. I spent way too long putting together a spreadsheet to compare various suppliers- the result? They all provide basically the same value, and all require additions and substitutions. So I went to Cleaveland because they had certain must-have tools for me, namely the hand squeezer and dimple dies. Possibly could have saved a few bucks by shopping around more but tools are not really the place to save pennies. So, just going down the list from top to bottom- Lightweight air hose kit- excellent, but consider the deluxe kit with 3 hoses and manifold block. It won't be long before you end up with another pneumatic tool or two, for me it was a cleco gun, so I've ended up with another hose and a manifold. Tungsten Bucking bar- when I got my tools the older steel bars were still included but I chose to delete them. Mistake! I ended up buying the palm size and footed bars. The Tungsten is great but its small size can make it difficult for an inexperienced bucker to hold square against the rivet. We got a lot of slanted shop heads on the VS before trying the wider steel bar and it worked better. The tungsten bar is worth its weight in tight spaces but I think the traditional bars are still worth having. Back riveting plate- consider the longer one. Its a common error to run out of back riveting plate when riveting rudder stiffeners- don't ask how I know! Countersink cutter- I got 3 flutes and have had no problems using them in my cordless electric drill. Common wisdom says lots more 3/32nd clecos! A -14 builder will be better placed to say just how many. Countersink cage- I've been happy with this one, works just fine. As many have said you'll end up with more than one, so this one should be great to get started and become your second cage if you ever find a better one. Dimple dies- In the context of all the other tools these are actually cheap, so consider getting the whole set including tank, substructure and the small diameter female. 24" ruler- fine but I also ended up with a 6 inch version and use it daily, much more convenient. Main squeeze- I saved a $100 and bought the almost identical but rarely mentioned Geezer squeezer. Same design, heavier (read cheaper) materials. It has been absolutely fine, not too heavy at all. I have been comfortable with the decision to defer buying a pneumatic squeezer. This hand squeezer is very easy to use. 3 inch yoke- add a longeron yoke at least. Absolute lifesaver. Many get the 4 inch no hole yoke but that is more of a personal choice based on willingness to use pop rivets in tight spots. What would I add? I got a rivet cutter. Sure Vans say you can use a seemingly short rivet when they call it out, and I'm sure the pros can successfully squeeze a slightly too long rivet. But for 40 bucks having near perfect size rivets every time has made life so much easier for this inexperienced riveter. you'll also need some longer rivets from vans, the cutter cannot trim a half size off a rivet, it needs to cut a longer one. Bought the rivet removal tool. Won't get into some tight spots and is only for universal head rivets, but makes drilling the heads off bad 1/8 rivets very quick and easy. A cupped cage centres the bit and then limits the drilling depth so you just get the head off. Again, a great one for the inexperienced! Pneumatic cleco gun. Search carpal tunnel on these forums. Sure there's more but can't think of any right now. I feel that most of us probably do our tool purchases the wrong way around. Saving money in the beginning, but adding tools that slowly make life easier as we get more experienced. But the time when we most need those tools that make life easier is right at the beginning when we have no experience! Good luck with your decisions! Ed |
from a -12 builder...(started with a -7)
Get at least one additional pair of Cleco Pliers for a total of 2 (minimum). One for each side of the plane. Also comes in handy when "Murphy" hides one of them.
Don't know if it's in their kit, but Mike Lauristen gave me good advice to buy a 4-Flute Ream in sizes 30 and 40. Was handy to true out holes before riveting especially across the wing skins. If building another, I'd get #'s 12, 19, and 1/4" also. Can't help myself, I like round clean holes. (2-flute drill bits sometimes give you a hole with 3 shallow lobes) Pneumatic squeezer will most definitely give you more consistent results. I had no problem with the 3-flute Countersink "chatter" unless the pilot was a bit sloppy in the hole. Don't sweat to much over some of these details and opinions. As you get experience, form your own preferences, screw up and order more parts/tools/fasteners you're going to make the FedEx guy/gal your new BFF anyway. Main thing is to stick with it, make a little progress each day (very important not to fall off the learning curve) and most of all Have Fun! (that was a lot for 2-cents. thinking of raising my rates) <grin> Dave |
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Ditto on the countersinks, three flute rarely chatters, and I have a guideless single hole countersink for the plexi. I use it on aluminum rarely. Oh - Cleco pliers, -either get 6 or just one. If you can't keep up with one, two won't do either. Stick it in your apron/pocket, it's a habit. Happy building. A good tool set will let you concentrate on the work. |
9A specific yokes ???
I'm about to put in an order for the complete airframe tool package with some changes. I will be swapping in the pneumatic squeezer and drdt-2 in place of the hand tools.
Which yokes did people use for the 9A that were essential and nice to have. Thanks. Michael B. |
Cleco Pliers
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Building a plane is just another excuse to buy tools.
Arh arh arh! |
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