WOW!

I have not checked the landings, but can, but 175 landings is not many. I wonder how long ours had been cracked for? I suspect a long time.

I'm thinking about riveting the doubler to the top most elastomer to keep it centered and to make for easy inspections. I also believe the correct pre-load is very important to keep all the stack up parts free from slack. What ya think?

Yes.
 

Yes, it is important to keep everything tight, otherwise it will hammer away at everything.

Vic

I felt the doubler needed to be fastened in some way. I really think it will move around and beat up the welds at least. I used Hysol when I put it back together. Just a thin coat on the plate and it oozed out nicely all around.

I had another drink, and decided that it would probably be better to put a couple roll pins in the doubler and two locating holes in the plate to keep the doubler centered; hopefully the per-load will keep everything tight.

That was 175 landings and 175 takeoffs on the rough grass field. An equal number or more on hard surface. In my experience on my field, the nosewheel takes a bit of a beating on takeoffs as well as landings. No matter how agressively I get or keep the nosewheel up, it gets hit by irregularities in the runway surface

Though mine was cracked, it looks like it takes awhile. First the plate slowly deforms, then hairline cracks form (I had 2 hairline) and then the cracks slowly open up. Of course I didn't see this actually happen but that's what it looks like.

Looking at pics of a very badly cracked plate, my guess is that the damage will progress until the plate starts to break into pieces.

Again, I think the critical issue is the presence of play between the plate and the elastomers. I set it up once and never checked it again in 3 years. At year 2, I discovered a cracked nose wheel. I can say with certainty that my plane has never landed nose wheel first or otherwise experienced any trauma to the landing gear beyond operations on my home strip.

Just a wrap up email on what it takes to comply with this service bulletin if you have cracking. And you live in Australia??:o

Parts replaced, new rubbers bolts etc $650 - 700approx
Certified welder, to inspect clean and repair $1100
Remove and install engine mount approx 30 man hours say $3300

The reason I post this is far too many people think EAB aviation is meant to be cheap. It is not, and you need to factor in your time. your time is never free. Even if you are retired. It has a value. For me I took days away from my business so I have costed this as my net after tax out of my pocket and not my business charge out rate.

Total cost AUD$5100 or about $4500 in USD.

Most likely still cheaper than a Cirrus or Beechcraft, but its not a poor mans sport!

David,
I realize the elastomers are expensive, plus the additional parts you required, and how you choose to factor the value of your personal time is your business....
But $1100 for inspecting cleaning and repairing the mount? What is the certified welder certified to do... brain surgery? :rolleyes:
If that is the norm over there, maybe I need to to make a change of profession and come on over ( I have always wanted to travel there anyway).
A weld repair was done on the engine mount of N410RV to test the installation. I would estimate that all prep work, welding, and paint touch-up was done in about 4 hours. The welding is actually the quickest part... easily under an hour.
I could really go for a job that allowed me to bill $250+ per hour....

Ahhh Scott, pardon me for poking fun at you, but you are not truly accounting for the job, and this is why people go broke thinking they are charging enough?.but are not.

To answer your question properly, it is true, the land of Oz is one of the most expensive places to do anything. But when you have the certified welder and all the CASA imposed overheads, the insurance overheads, the cost of compliance overheads (CASA and all manner of government overheads - yes we lead the world here :mad: ) it starts adding up.

So I call the guy at Archerfield (1 hrs drive) to come and inspect and make a plan. He also had to knock up the parts from your drawings and then come back a few days later. So that is 4 hours on site as you say (he was 3.5) but account for the two trips, the prep work, the travel plus the setup his gear on site and decamp to leave.

That is about 3 hours plus 6 hours x 110 is about $990 and some materials and parts production, ohh and don't forget the GST (tax) at 10%.

By the way our mogas is USD$5.40 a gallon not $3.10, our restaurants are twice the price and so is real estate??

Come on down! :D

I hope you are not offended by my post as that is not the point. Too many folk expect everything for nothing, and they even expect that of Vans no doubt. Maybe it is a mindset thing but my point is even in ABE?.it is not as free as you might think.

Hope that helps the understanding a bit.

I thiink Dave offers a clear dose of reality to the actual cost of repairs sometimes.

For example when a certain Van's employee made a public statement that the SB mod on the horizontal cracking was no big deal and could be done in a few hours I about blew a gasket! (when I challenged Van's about this they said "a few" is relative number and doesn't really have an exact meaning!) Yea right! My response, I'll gladly bring my aircraft to you for repair if you can do it in a few hours... there were no takers.

I know we have some folks around here that think anything can be done in few minutes (my old boss felt the same way), but in reality, these repair jobs can take much more time than you expect, more offen than not things do not go quite as planned.

No personal offense at all, and I hope that is reciprocal when I say that even though aviation is expensive (everywhere), with experimental aircraft we have some freedoms to influence the cost (if we choose to use them). Here in the states anyway. It sounds like you are quoting repair costs that would have been the same if it had been a certificated aircraft. That makes your charges only relevant for Aust., because here in the states (and other places), an owner doesn't have to use a certificated aircraft weld repair person. I also think of it as crazy to be paying shop rate for someone to travel two hrs round trip to do an inspection before the repair has begun (over here, the owner would pull the mount, take it to a shop that does specialty welding (race car fabrication for example) and get the job done with a quality that is equivalent to your certified aircraft welder at a fraction of your cost.

I am not naive about charging for this type of work. I ran my own business (successfully for a number of years) doing specialty work on aircraft (RV's and certificated).
The point of my original post (which probably wasn't conveyed very well) was that because of your rules being so different, your quoted cost is not a good bench mark for what this work should cost an RV-10 owner here in the states. If someone does pay a shop that much, my guess is that shop would not be doing to many more of those jobs.

It would be interesting to hear what the engine mount welding/repair charges were for the couple of other RV-10s here in the states that have required the weld repair. My guess is that it was a fraction of what you are quoting.

Apples vs. oranges...............

Since you asked. :)
 

Since you asked, Scott, I spent $200 getting my mount welded by a certified welder. I admire whomever was able at Van's to weld the internal brace while it was still mounted to the aircraft. I had to take mine off, which meant removing the engine. all told, it was about 35-40 hours of my time and the welding costs, plus new elastomers and engine mounts.

Vic

Thanks for the info Vic. That is more in line with what I would have expected.
To clarify, our welder didn't do any of the welding with the mount attached to the airplane, but he did do it with the engine still attached to the mount. We pulled the entire assembly off the front of the fuselage, and he welded it while it was hanging (lifted as high as we could get it to improve access from the bottom) from an engine hoist.
That is why in the SB it mentions that if you have the ability to do the weld repair on site, you can save a bit of time by leaving the engine attached to the engine mount.

Mike I can't agree. This is not apples Vs oranges, more like one variety of apple to another.

This is a global community, a large number of Vans customers are not in the USA where the costs of doing business are far more reasonable.

I am intrigued as to why you think any contractor called out to do an inspection, to see if the job was able to be executed on my site, is not billable, and including his travel time back again. They did not charge milage on top of that. The company still has to pay the employee whether he is welding, doing paperwork, cleaning up or driving to my job site. I expect to pay that. For that matter, most companies here will absorb the mileage if charging the full rate per hour (I do) but if the client wants to penny pinch and pay a reduced travel rate, guess what, the get slugged mileage.

The issue of using a certified aviation welder is not a USA vs AUS thing. The RV10 is the BEST ABE aircraft out there in so many ways, bang for buck, and we do a lot of hours so the aim is to keep ours that way. I was not about to have any old welder have a crack at it. We needed the plane in the air again and no half measures would do. The Vans product deserves no less. The company we contracted is known as one of the very best in Australia, most down here can probably guess who. So sure, we paid a premium but for premium service. They also repaired a cracked and spare step while they were there.

As for legal matters. Complying with a SB is a serious matter. Many argue you do not have to. But wait till you are in court explaining why XYZ happened. So considering I did not do any welding on the airframe at all (just as well :) ) I can't claim to have constructed those parts so I do not feel I can sign out a repair that I am not qualified to do myself or to judge the quality and compliance of with respect to the SB. The certified welder can and supplies a declaration for the log book.

Many will argue…you don't have to do that. Maybe not, but knowing well a very high profile famous GA engineer/manufacturer/Attorney at Law from a little town in OK, and the law suits he has been a witness to, and how they pan out, it is not so easy to just say….no not my problem.

So there is some conservatism in my approach.

I could have removed the engine from the frame and taken it to Archerfield. That would have taken me an additional 3-4 + hours out of my working day, swap cars with my wife (won't fit in my 2 door sports car) and the $100 in car costs. Add to that the extra time in remove and refit which Vic has confirmed is not insignificant.

I actually think it was truly cheaper to pay them to inspect, prepare, manufacture and do the job, than us removing the mount and taking it to the shop.

My whole point here is to highlight to people that Experimental aviation is a great sector to be in, but far too many think it is almost free. If we are to maintain our Vans products to a high standard, as the maker intended, it comes with a responsibility to do it right and that costs one way or the other. Whether it is measured or not.

Yep.
 

Scott, I can see that detaching the mount from the frame and leaving it attached to the engine could have saved some time. I didn't have a TIG welder here to be able to do that (I'm in the market for one now, though). :)

Vic

If you like, fine with me. I am just pointing out what you did is not the same as what others like Scott or Vic have done.


If you make the choice to call someone out to your place, of course you should expect to pay for their time, and travel.

If however you take the part to someone to have the work done, then you should not have to pay their rate for your time/travel.

Cumquats and cucumbers .....................

Hey Mike,

Now I am confused. :)

Anyhow, have a good weekend.

GREAT, now my work here is done.

Parsnips and pomegranates...................................... ................

OK, if thats what floats your boat. :p Fill ya boots! :D

But can you answer my question?

Just in addition to that, as Vic pointed out with the extra hours he had invested in the SB compliance, whether it is Vic's travel time or the contractor's, it has a cost. And if one is truly honest with their maths, it has to be costed at a reasonable rate too.

ABE ownership is a great thing, but most folk do selective accounting (usually for their wives to hear ;) ) but very few realise it is more than just few, oil & filter and a few plugs.

Dave,

I think it's just how you pay yourself for your time. $110/hr? for working on a hobby? I built my own intercom because it was fun; if I charged myself $110/hr then I have the world's most expensive audio panel!!

Also, my insurance will pay a shop the going rate for repairs following an accident. OR, I can fix it myself, and they will pay me $15/hr. (!) Different perspective from yours on what my time is worth.

Bob said it very well, it is how I "pay" myself.

Of course there is some cost involved-------just most likely not as high as the professional would charge as in your example. In my personal case, my time is free= $0.00/hr.

By the way--------"fill ya boots"??? Not a term I am familiar with.

Besides, I dont wear boots--------my Birkenstocks let stuff drain out pretty easily :D

Mushrooms and............oh, never mind.

:D:D:D

Fill ya boots, is a Go right ahead, have some fun. Its a friendly yeah go for it expression. Let's say you have some oranges in a big cart on your driveway to give away to the neighbours, you say ..help yourself, fill ya boots!

Bob,

sure is different, if you are retired and are just doing it all for fun.

Many of us work, run businesses, sit on boards of associations (free of charge) like the EAA for example (they might even get paid) and that is all time taken away from either family or business.

So when some of us, (maybe lots) are doing an annual inspection, avionics upgrade or complying with a SB, it is not free time, especially when it is during the week so the plane is airworthy to fly again for either business of voluntary association work.

Different story to Sunday afternoon washing or tinkering in the hangar. 30 hours of SB work is not the fun of building an audio panel. Therefore I see it has a real cost. Others don't.

Do not think for a minute I am criticising Vans for a costly SB. I have no such thoughts. It was reasonable and fair. Just another day in GA.

My plate was cracked and I'm almost finished with the SB. Since finishing my project 3 years ago, I've been retired and maintaining my '10 as required.

I have <$100 spent on the work plus more hours of my own time than I care to count. It hasn't been fun work but I built the '10 to spend personal time in and on so I could possibly account for the time as income. ;)

I planned to start my condition inspection at the end of September and complete it by now but as soon as I saw the cracks, removal of the engine began.

Once the engine and mount were off and cleaned up, I called a neighbor who acted as my Tech Advisor during construction to inspect and advise. I knew he was an experienced aircraft welder and restorer and hoped he would offer to do the welding. He took the time to understand the SB and the job, explained to me how the frame and the plate had to be prepared and worked to ensure a high quality weld. I stripped the paint, did some grinding and otherwise got intimate with it all.

However my meticulous neighbor indicated that his TIG welder needed factory adjustment because "it wouldn't hold a steady spark". Instead, he suggested that another neighbor be engaged and told me that he would take the job over to him and tell him what needed to be done.

He did that and I went over to 'watch' the actual welding and to act as an intelligent work holder. The actual welding took 15-20 mins with the only glitch being contamination from the oil inside the frame.

The welder then suggested I have the whole mount blasted and powder coated by a guy up the road who does reasonable work. He then showed me an example of another engine mount.

It turned out to be Atlantic Refinishers of Creedmoor NC. I met the owner at the shop door and he said he'd do it in 3 days for $80 but he couldn't match my color. Gray would be fine.

I've reinstalled the mount, the nose gear and the engine using the old hardware and elastomers. None of it was broke, all was within service limits (2 washers), and all of it is easily replaced with new at any time.

So far it's cost me $80 + 2nd day air of the SB + cotter pins and a whole lot of not so enjoyable hours. I'm slow and careful but have to admit it is satisfying getting it back together. And maybe I've cured a persistent but unidentified minor oil leak(s) I've had since Phase 1. Heading back out in few minutes to do sensor wiring.

Some random notes:
The original problem is a small design oversight. Rough fields combined with play in the shock assembly slowly crack the assembly. My guess is that all installations will eventually crack without the SB though it may exceed the life of the aircraft. Keep the play out and apply the SB as writter, no problems.

Pulling the engine without detaching the mount to do the work could save some $$$ in contracted out work. For the home maintainer you are not saving anything and just making things more difficult IMHO.

An earlier experience with a second hanging of the engine suggested that keeping the prop mounted made rehanging the engine much more difficult. Impossible for me, but that may have just been me. It also may mean that keeping the engine attached to the mount for the SB work, and keeping the prop mounted, does in fact make things a bit easier but I don't know.

RV10inOZ is telling it like it is. For the hobbyist like me whose consumption of personal time is close to costless or even rewarding, experimental maintenance can be cheaper than the car I won't work on.

Living on an airpark with talented neighbors is fantastic. I had 3 welders available. My retired next door neighbor who has a well used TIG outfit lacked aircraft quality skills. My other neighbors are highly skilled and experienced and retired as well. I just hope to be able to return the favors going forward.

Actually, it would be a cart of apples where I live----------looks like this has come full circle then, apples/oranges is where this started....................:D

http://www.applehill.com/

Mr Maule Driver,
Yes it is rewarding, even when its costly. These planes are seriously good machines. Compared to a Cirrus or Beech they are very good at delivering the goods. No need to explain that here :D

Even with a SB or two they represent great value.

Ok, as an aside from the semantic jousting (all in fun) and the people doing field repairs, here is my progress on the service bulletin. Since I had the mount off anyway (doing firewall installations), it was a fairly simple matter to simply remove the nose gear. To get the compression necessary to remove the strut (since I didn't have the weight of the airframe), I used ratcheting straps carefully positioned on the motor mount and nose gear. I actually had to wait a few days for the doubler, which I then took to a local welder. They let me pick it up today (cost: $45US) and it is already at a powdercoating shop, which will cost a bit more. A bit of time and trouble but I won't worry about 1) the plate moving and damaging mount tubes or 2) corrosion (the powder coat guy is good and makes sure gaps are filled, not covered). Below is a picture of what it looked like when I picked it up today.



Update: Here is the mount after powder coat. Looks like it could have come from Van's this way. The cost to completely strip the part and re-coat it was about $220, but worth it for the piece of mind.



Update again: Here is how I reinstalled the nose gear with the mount off the airframe using ratcheting straps. Only the two short straps are showing but I also used two longer straps from the top mount points to the front of the gear leg. The longer straps had more leverage and did most of the work; using four was mostly to distribute the load and increase the safety factor should a strap fail.

Use die penetrant?
 

By you guys experience, using a die penetrant inspection kit is worth it?

Where to get one?

N145RV got the SB yesterday. Only 200+ hours. Mount was powder coated hammered gray and the elastomer plate was still shiny powder coat without even any witness marks.

No cracks! Thanks Jesse
 

Happy to report my SB is completed and no cracks found, whew!

I happened to be going down to Florida and while I was down there I dropped in at X35 where Jesse Saint's shop is located and got a hand on the SB from his crew. They had done this enough times that we knocked it out in about an hour. I enjoyed browsing the many RVs they had around and there are some sweet flying cars by Maverick being produced next door that I got to take a peak at. I'm glad I got a hand with it and had a good experience so I wanted give a public thanks and kudos to Jesse and the guys.

SERVICE BULLETIN 14-08-29
 

Well guys, My 10 isn't finished so this repair was simple! Sandblasted the mount first, ground the plate to fit. Then clamped in the plate. I used to be a certified aerospace tig welder, so that part was easy! About 20 minutes of welding! The main suggestion I can make is that when you do this repair, remove the mount I've welded a ton of precision parts and I wouldn't be able to do a nice job of the welding if I couldn't lay it on my welding table. Second I suggest welding the entire plate so as not to leave any airspace between the plate and the existing mount- This would be an area of concern for corrosion! Finally a re-powder coat! I agree with others that glue, silicone, or other adhesive is not really suitable for a repair of this importance! Just my opinion! :D

Pics
 

Here are some pics of the process!

G'day All,

We have just commenced SB 14-08-29. We have removed the nut and bolt that passes through WD-1015. We have removed the nut and bolt from WD-1016 (link assembly). We have applied 'Dan Force' (a big chap who could push back a B787 if the tug was U/S) but do you think we can get the link assembly out of the engine mount?? Has anybody had any problems with this?? If so, how did you get it out??

Regards,

Andrew.

We had this problem on Dave Maib's plane, I think. Basically, the hat woukdnt release from the top of the elastomer shaft. I think we had to use a pipe wrench gently to twist on the hat and break it loose from the shaft. We had replacement parts standing by, but didn't need them. Try bolting the bottom of the shaft back in and twisting on the hat. There could be a little bit of oxidation holding the two together. Start gently, like we did, and it may not damage the hat and you can reuse it. Use a little grease at reassembly to avoid this problem in the future.

Thanks Jesse, in the end it took a butane torch & some more 'Dan Force'

I am going to do my first condition inspection this month and went to the Van's website tonight to order the SB parts but could not find them anywhere in the catalog using "WD-1001K-MOD Doubler" or any thing similiar. Is this a call Van's only item to get?

Yes, call. They will ask "No crack kit, or cracks kit?" They seem okay with "Send the no-cracks plate, I'll let you know if I find cracks".

Exactly. A quick call and they'll send the plate. If you find cracks, then you can send the plate back & they'll send the crack kit.

While you are at it check the three nose gear bushings for excessive play.