VFR on top
 

I checked weather today and my destination was forecast to be VFR. I departed VFR and climbed above a scattered to broken cloud deck. Enroute the ATIS at the destination was overcast but it was 1 1/2 hour old and a nearby airport was reporting scattered clouds. On arrival the overcast was correct. I contacted approach and descended thru the clouds but I didn't file IFR or request a IFR clearance and the controller told me to remain in VFR conditions which I couldn't do.

My question is how should one handle this situation?

File one of these now.

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov

Don't say a thing and...

Pop up IFR or go somewhere else. Follow the advice above.

Sorry to be blunt, but you obviously broke the rule and we get to break the rule only that many times until it catches up with us.

There are lots of options, (i.e filing/requesting IFR, special VFR, alternate airport, etc)

Good grief. The only thing you did right was to contact approach, so the controller presumably would keep you from killing an innocent pilot who was ifr and legitimately in the clouds.
1. Talk to flight watch (122.0) enroute to keep abreast of the wx.
2. Go to an alternate, or go home.
3. Get an instrument rating.

The risks of VFR OVER the top ("vfr on top" is a form of ifr clearance) for a vfr pilot should now be all too clear. If the clouds below you start to close up, you continue on at your risk.

Edit: okay, I looked you up on the faa database and it says you are instrument rated. Why didn't you just ask for an ifr approach clearance?

And, as you point out, at the risk of others.

OP: File the NASA form and fill it out honestly and transparently.

Dumb question from a VFR pilot.

If your alternate nearby air port was broken scattered, why not just head there, descend when safe to do so and then fly under the overcast to your destination?

Or did I misunderstand the weather?

Regards

First off, I would suggest you do not admit to doing such things on the internet:eek:

Straight talk…you asked for it, by virtue of your straight talk in the OP.

As has been said...NASA form now…but you've already put it in writing in a public forum, so ya takes your chances. However, that is after the fact damage control…so how do you do better?

1. Better planning. How long before you departed did you check the weather? Was the forecast for good VFR all day, deteriorating weather, or with some TEMPO conditions of less than VFR? Might the forecast have changed between leaving home and getting to the airport and blasting off?

2. Better enroute decision making. How long was the flight? You said the ATIS was an hour and a half old…but they typically update it on the hour. Or were you looking at severely dated XM Wx? If that was the case, then call Flight Watch or FSS if Wx ahead is looking more and more iffy. If it was VFR when you departed, and the ATIS was that old, how long were you flying over an increasingly cloudy sky? Don't fall into the trap of thinking, "well they said it would be VFR, I'm sure the clouds will break up soon". Murphy likes clouds!

3. Honesty with yourself and ATC (I know, I know, that sometimes feels like being honest with the IRS, but sometimes ATC really can help! ;)).

ATC: "Maintain VFR"
You: "Unable"
ATC: "State your intentions and your request"
You: "IFR to XXX"
ATC: Advise when ready to copy clearance"

You get the gist.

4. Learn from this…to avoid the big ol' knot in your gut and lump in your throat that were probably there as you descended through the clouds. It usually gets darker just before you break out of the bottom, doesn't it…those knots and lumps get bigger then, eh.

5. And honestly, if you have an instrument ticket, and are asking the above question, go get some refresher or follow-on training. It'll make you a better pilot, or more confident in using the rating to avoid these situations.

Gutsy post…take the punches on the chin to help you get better…most of us have taken similar punches along the way for our stupid pilot tricks. ;)

Cheers,
Bob

Eddy,

No dumb questions! He said he didn't file IFR, so there would have been no alternate filed. Even with an IFR flight plan, some weather conditions at the destination don't require an alternate either, though its good to plan outs. His VFR planning may or may not have included an alternate. Also, there can be a marked difference between scattered and broken (the wx mentioned in your question), and safely flying under an overcast depends greatly on the height of the overcast, and the surrounding terrain and obstacles, and we don't have any info on that in this situation. Hope that adds value!

Cheers,
Bob

If you really do have an instrument rating, then I am concerned about your knowledge base. But, even without that instrument rating, unless you were fuel critical or without engine power and absolutely had no other choice other than to violate the rules and descend into IMC, then you broke the rule of what should be basic VFR/IFR knowledge that you learn in perhaps your very first flying lesson.

Having said that, however, I am sure you are not alone amongst the pilots on the forum in breaking this particular rule.

Focus On Decision Making
 

1. Instrument rated, but not instrument current or qualified (suggested by original posting/questions). This needs to be recognized.
2. Not much attention paid to weather - assuming it will get better?
3. Conscious decision to enter IMC without clearance.
4. Fuel limited? Is that why there was no attempt to seek out or maintain VFR?
5. Any thought about declaring an emergency?
6. Preflight planning did not include alternatives (this is very basic, particularly for VFR flight planning).

Advice to original poster:
Contact a flight instructor.
Go back to basics - tell the instructor you need help with ADM. An experienced instructor should be able to take you thru many scenarios to help sharpen your decision making. This is not something you should try to do on your own - even professional golfers have coaches.
Finally, debrief yourself after each flight. Ask yourself if you would have made the same decisions with other family members sitting beside you.
We all make mistakes. Hopefully, we survive the really bad ones and learn from them. You've gotten good advice from many of the above posters. Really glad to see you writing about your experience rather than everyone else reading about it in a newspaper.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP

You said that it was VFR at your destination, but this does not mean it wasn't already overcast.

As was mentioned, asking for an IFR clearance to descend or go somewhere else are your only legal options. Special VFR gives you tighter cloud clearances, but it doesn't let you descend into an overcast. Personally, I file IFR just about everywhere I go over 50nm. Then I don't end up in these situations. If ATC wants to send me somewhere I don't want to go en route, and the conditions are good enough, I just cancel and go VFR. It's much easier to do this than to go VFR and get a clearance later. Sometimes ATC will give it to you and sometimes they'll send you to FSS. Either way it's a hassle due to bad planning.

For those out there reading who don't have an IFR ticket, please get one. The statement, "a VFR pilot is only half a pilot" is not too far off. A VFR pilot who travels will often find himself either scud running (dangerous) or getting stuck on top (dangerous and illegal if you descend through it any way).

I think the only legal way to descend through an overcast VFR is by declaring an emergency.

Just a point of contention, but in our part of the world, the concept, the rule and the notion of VFR ON TOP is strictly an IFR procedure.

We adopted this from the greatest GA country on earth, so I would assume that the rules we adopted were as per those in the USA.

If you fly a VFR flight there is truly no such thing as VFR ON TOP. Unless you meet the criteria for VFR flight?..which involves being able to navigate by visual ground reference to determine your position. Thus hours on end above anything more than SCT (4/8ths) is not VFR flight.

So I think by what I read the OP was in strife long before the cloud busting.

I have seen many posts on here over the years about light IFR and all this sort of thing, and I fear many do not respect that IFR is IFR. Nothing else. IMC and VMC may have gradients but the rules do not. And for good reason as has been shown here.

Folks, if there is one way to get CASA or FAA or CAA's of the world to ban ABE's from IFR ops, then this is a good start.

Aspire to be professional and not treat flight planning so disrespectfully for the rules, either VFR or IFR.

Glad you made it out unsafely, the alternative was worse. :eek:

I believe our rules allow reference to the horizon, not just the ground. As I think was already mentioned, VFR ON TOP is an IFR situation. VFR OVER THE TOP is for VFR. The OP was obviously the former, because the latter requires access to the ground with appropriate cloud clearances.

The truth be told, many of us have probably done similar to what the OP did or worse, but (at least many of us) we have learned from that and try hard to avoid those situations.

This is an excellent tactic while traveling CC to manage the OP's scenario.

Excellent advice!

Although I am rated IFR, I cannot by any stretch keep current and simply being current is just not enough in my book to be safe. So all my flying is strictly VFR
and sometimes VFR on top with visual on an on obstructed horizon.
This happens quite a lot along the coast where during summertime a layer of marine fog covers portions of the coastline and parts of the inland.
At certain times of the year the entire central valley can be covered in fog up to about 2000 feet and stretch 100 miles accros from the coastal range to the foothills of the Sierras. Crystal clear weather for the rest of California and an easy decision to cross over the top in VFR. No need to complicate thing with new rules.

The very best tool that has come along to avoid the situation the OP found himself in is ADS-B weather. Get it and you know what I am talking about!

So what is it officially called when you have a clear destination but complete cloud cover over a portion of the route. I have always thought it was "VFR on top", and legal if you maintain the correct cloud clearance.

Not the best situation to be in if you have an emergency, but sometimes the only way to get somewhere.

(Just signed up for IFR ground school yesterday at the EAA hanger on 7S5. Spots still available, starts soon, $300 for the class and $150 for books. Once a week.)

Clouds
 

" For those out there reading who don't have an IFR ticket, please get one. The statement, "a VFR pilot is only half a pilot" is not too far off. A VFR pilot who travels will often find himself either scud running (dangerous) or getting stuck on top (dangerous and illegal if you descend through it any way"

Way off topic, but not going to get an IFR. There is another safer option for me. Dont go if it is at all edgy. I'll spend the time studying the weather to make better decisions.

If I were located in a flatter part of the country, or flew there often, had a more compelling need to fly, and could practice often, I would probably get an IFR ticket. As it is, my missions almost always involve flying over the mountains and the clouds over high mountains have rocks, ice, and nasty turbulence, and major up and downdrafts in them. Safely clear of clouds is the only way I will fly. As a husband, father, son, and grandfather, not even going to tempt myself with the capability a ticket would provide. If I spent the money and time to get it and to stay current, I know there would be tremendous pressure to use it. And I know that in my situation there is no way I could possibly maintain the skills necessary to actually do it safely. The accident reports are full of evidence supporting that.

I get to fly 30 or so times a year, most of those cross country and in last 10 years have not had a close call with clouds. That is not a matter of chance, but a matter of choice.

Not arguing the value of an IFR ticket, just pointing out that there should not be universal rules about what makes us qualified to fly.

That is blatantly insulting to those of us that choose to not incur the costs of obtaining an IFR rating, or the costs of acquiring and operating IFR compliant aircraft.

That is along the same lines as claiming that only tailwheel pilots are "real" pilots...

Or any number of stereotypical comments that denigrate a group of people that make an informed choice that suits their particular needs and circumstances.

Sorry, as a VFR pilot since 1967 that has no interest in IFR, I take offense to the implication that I am less of a pilot than someone else just because I don't happen to have an IFR ticket.

Respectfully,

Nice Budd Davisson article here:

http://flighttraining.aopa.org/magaz...r_The_Top.html

BTW, set aside the obvious issues of visibility and cloud clearance at the destination. For the cruise portion of the flight above a cloud layer, the fundamental risk is the same, IFR or VFR.

That's OK by me, since my RV only has one engine, it's only half an airplane :p

Well said. Many non-pro IFR pilots are long out of currency and can hurt themselves and others.

Yep, but then things do change sometimes.

After 43 years, I now find it is time to get the IFR---------because I now have a plane that, IMHO, "Justifies" the rating.

The higher, faster, and farther abilities of the RV 10 can sometimes only be utilized if you can go IFR. Way different than flying the old Stinson was.

I fly lots of VFR and only VFR and only during daylight. Here's how I handle it.

1. Never go VFR on top. Not ever. Unless I can see the ground on the far side.

2. If the forecast doesn't include solid VFR underneath, I can't go to that destination.

3. If I'm under broken, don't go on top unless it's getting more open and the forecast is for improvement.

4. If I'm on top of broken, keep an eye out for signs that it's going solid. Well before that, duck under.

5. If I'm on top of broken, keep an eye out how high the bottoms are. A hole is no good if there' no way out from it underneath.

6. Have enough fuel to allow plenty of options. Fuel is cheap. Options are priceless.

7. Have enough daylight to allow plenty of options.

8. Carry enough charts (electronic or paper, doesn't matter) and airport information, so that I can determine alternates.

Dave

Before I was IFR rated, I ended up spending the night at an airport while an RV-10 showed up, refueled, filed IFR, then flew the last leg home. That night, I knew if I had the IFR rating, I would have spent the night in my own bed. May have only been 20-minues in actual IFR for a 2-hour flight.

I believe that each rating or endorsement that one adds to the pilots license does serve to improve one's piloting skills. I know it's worked that way for me.

high performance
complex
instrument
seaplane
commercial

others that would also help (but I have not yet pursued):

glider
multi
CFI
CFII
ATP

I really think they're all worthwhile, and each of them makes us a little bit better...

I plan to get my IFR rating once I resume flying in an RV myself. Not because I think or plan to fly IFR, but I want to mitigate risks of flying by way of increasing my own skills and awaremess as a pilot.

Same to be said for upset attitude training, I don't think anyone does that and then puts themself in that position on purpose, but knowing if you get in that situation you have some skills in your toolbox to help return you safely home.

With that said when I do get my IFR, I wouldn't mind staying current and the occasion you need to use it, the option exists. With everything in flying everyone has their own personal limits.

From my perspective, it's hard to have absolute rules - like, never fly VFR on top. It often might not seem the best choice, but flying is by its nature an exercise in risk management. Sometimes, VFR on top, particularly if someone has an instrument rating, is a perfectly sensible approach. Depends on the day, the mission, the aircraft capabilities and the pilot's capabilities.

The advice of filing the NASA form is good, but bear in mind that this program is intended to provide relief when the potential violation was unintentional. If your local FSDO were to call you on this, they could contend the immunity is not available to you under the circumstances. I imagine you'd eventually win the point, but it might not be fun. (Your chances of prevailing can be diminished by the choice of words in a forum message.)

So, how to handle it - if the nearby airport is not overcast, go in that direction and descend until you break out and then turn around. If the nearby airport is not open and it was forecast to be, then keep in mind that the "E" word is your ultimate get out of jail free play. Once you declare, you can pretty much do just about anything - you just have to prepared to respond about the circumstances if asked. Not necessarily saying that it was called for here, but

You could have asked for IFR to descend through a layer and told the controller you'd cancel upon breaking out. If the controller nevertheless said to remain VFR, you could give him one last shot by asking if you needed to "declare." If you didn't get a clearance or a reasonable expectation of when you could expect one, then you could just declare and announce that you were descending. ATC and the FSDO might not be thrilled, but I don't think there's any enforcement that could actually be initiated against you. And, in such a case, the tape is your friend.

FWIW - Dan

For our Aussie friends: Here in the US it is legal to fly under VFR even when the ground is not in sight. This is not true in some other countries, and here in the US is not allowed for student pilots.
In controlled airspace you need to be at least 1000' above the clouds, to give see and avoid a chance to work for climbing ifr aircraft.
The proper FAA term for this is "VFR over the top". Although widely misused, "VFR on top" is a form of ifr clearance.

The article that DanH posted is an excellent read. (post 22) If it seems a bit conservative, he provides excellent reasoning for that conservatism. I learned some additional things to consider before going on a long VFR over the top.

Suggest reading it if you have doubts or questions.

Yeah but inquiring minds want to know: What primer did he use on that plane?

VFR over the top is legal in Canada although it does require a rating. Extra instrument time, some extra equipment, (for example a heated pitot), are required. There are also some conditions that apply. The airport at the destination must be forecast VFR at the time of arrival and for some amount of extra time as well, I forget the exact details.
I have flown VFR over the top on many occasions, when the weather conditions were clear at both ends and I always had a way out. I feel that it is much safer to be up on top, in clear skies then to be flying along under a low VFR layer with less then ideal visibility.
Three years ago I was stuck in Kansas City for three days and decided at that time that I would get my IFR ticket.
After three seasons of IFR flying I have had very few IMC flights but the ones I had allowed me to safely complete a flight. I really like cross country IFR flight in VFR conditions as the controllers hold your hand the whole way.
On two occasions, to test the system, I was on flight following and encountered some cloud on my route that looked like good practice IFR conditions. I called centre and asked for a IFR clearance to do an approach to my destination. As I was already in the system the clearance came quickly with no questions asked.
I have had 28 years of VFR only flight and have travelled coast to coast, always watching the weather.
The past three years of IFR have not really modified my personal minimums that much but it has given me many more options for travel and taken quite a bit of the worry out of marginal VFR conditions.
For the OP, I am sure that you have learned some lessons from this thread, and you will likely do a better job with your weather briefing in the future. Always give your self a place to go, even if it means going back to where you started.

I agree that all the ratings tend to make one a better overall pilot.

What I haven't seen mentioned is this:

There's a huge gulf between being IFR current (FAR requirements) and being proficient (having flown enough actual to be comfortable with your skills)

Good discussion all around.

Actually Australia's regs for VFR "over the top" (or on top of more than SCT and with no ref to ground features for nav) are almost identical....

Cheers

For those offended by my quote, it is something I have heard more than once. It does not mean you're not as good of a pilot, but, as was described by RV6_flyer, you can only fly half of the time. In the case of the OP, without an IFR ticket, he couldn't have made his destination legally, even if he would have filed. So, for that trip, he was not a legal pilot without an IFR ticket. The fact that he has an IFR ticket means that he could have done it legally, but chose not to. As David Paule described, he is VFR and has a set of personal rules to work with. Depending on where he lives, there are likely a lot of times that he can't go where he would go if the weather was better.

In short, I did not mean to offend anybody, but I think the quote makes a valid point.

Thanks Bob

That makes sense, thanks for your feedback

Cheers

Hi Richard,

That is what I believed to be true as well.

Cheers

You bet Eddy.

Hey for that pesky, sometimes confusing VFR On Top, versus VFR Over the Top…

Here's what the Pilot to Controller Glossary says:
VFR‐ON‐TOP- ATC authorization for an IFR aircraft to operate in VFR conditions at any appropriate VFR altitude (as specified in 14 CFR and as restricted by ATC). A pilot receiving this authorization must comply with the VFR visibility, distance from cloud criteria, and the minimum IFR altitudes specified in 14 CFR Part 91. The use of this term does not relieve controllers of their responsibility to separate aircraft in Class B and Class C airspace or TRSAs as required by FAAO JO 7110.65.

Pilot-friendly translation and real-world use: You are on an IFR Flight Plan, at an IFR altitude. You may have speed, altitude or routing restrictions that you want to alleviate. You are in good VFR conditions, above clouds, or between layers…actually you could be in CAVU conditions…no clouds, but on an IFR flight plan you intend to remain on. You request VFR-on-Top. If ATC clears you for it, you operate at a VFR Altitude, IFR separation is somewhat relieved for the controller, and you typically can fly direct, and at the speed of your choice (ATC may impose restrictions in their VFR-On-Top Clearance to you). It really is more of a separation relief and shortcut producing method than a cloud avoidance tactic in this type of scenario. A Metroliner Pilot once used this tactic to try to scoot by me (in a Jetstream) to get to LAX from San Diego first. He failed miserably…went too high (17.5)…and that little Jetstream was the fastest one we had! :D

Another use is to climb through IFR/IMC conditions to VFR-On-Top. You have IFR separation in the IMC climb portion, and then move to the VFR separation and VFR Altitude phase when on top, and have reported in VMC conditions. This method often is used by a flight that wants to eventually cancel IFR and proceed VFR, once past the IMC conditions…for example taking off from the cloudy coast and flying to the CAVU desert.

Interestingly VFR Over the Top is not in the Pilot To Controller Glossary. It appears to be more of a description of conditions of flight, versus any kind of clearance. Sounds like there are restrictions or regs in some countries about requirements to operate in those conditions.

Seems its also a matter of judgment. As Dan H said, the risks of flying with no visual contact with the ground don't care what kind of flight plan you are on. Gotta ask...Do I have the equipment, training and currency to get down safely, if the "pilot cooling fan" up front stops turning, or if I get to where I'm going and the ground is still MIA? Do I have the SA on what's below that white carpet to allow a safe descent? When faced with nuttin' but clouds ahead and below as far as the eye can see, no IFR ticket or no IFR airplane, Harry Callahan said it best: "You gotta ask yourself…do I feel lucky?" Ask that before terra firma disappears!

Cheers,
Bob