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-   -   How many issues can you find? (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=114440)

N941WR 06-24-2014 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Low Pass (Post 891367)
How? By becoming heat sinks?

According to Don Rivera at Air Flow Performance, a 90 degree fitting can cause bubbles to form in the fuel. He recommends the fuel line be run up between the two cylinders and to keep the fuel lines as short and fitting free as possible. Obviously, the 90 degree fitting into the "spider" is required.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Low Pass (Post 891367)
Why??

I see some issues here, but not as many as all this "someone's gonna spontaneously combust" indignation warrants. I've seen rental planes with similar conditions under the cowl.

As I understand it, that is one of the hottest parts of the engine compartment and the radiant heat from the cylinder, along with the 90 degree fitting could be a source of vapor lock.

az_gila 06-24-2014 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N941WR (Post 891402)
According to Don Rivera at Air Flow Performance, a 90 degree fitting can cause bubbles to form in the fuel. He recommends the fuel line be run up between the two cylinders and to keep the fuel lines as short and fitting free as possible. Obviously, the 90 degree fitting into the "spider" is required.
.....

Which is why some IO- Lycoming inter-cylinder baffles have a hole in them...:)

Bevan 06-24-2014 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N941WR (Post 891402)
According to Don Rivera at Air Flow Performance, a 90 degree fitting can cause bubbles to form in the fuel.

I wouldn't think a fitting would cause bubbles to form on the "pressurized" side of a fuel injection system. I could be wrong though, probably am... I'm married. :rolleyes:

Bevan

RVbySDI 06-24-2014 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N941WR (Post 891400)
No idea, I didn't ask. All I did was help arrange for him to get these issues corrected, which he did. He reported back that the plane is now operating as expected.

These pictures were not posted to flame anyone or trash a guy's purchase but as a learning tool for those who are still building.

If someone has a good, clean installation, can you send me your pictures and I'll post them anonymously as a comparison for best practices. (I have a carb, otherwise I would post my pictures.)

Wellllll . . . I have what I, and many others who have inspected my plane, consider a clean, safe, appropriate, (insert whatever adjective you wish here) fuel injected firewall forward install. I might be inclined to acquiesce to your request for a picture, if it were not for the smug indignation of the other posters on this thread. I am sure I was in no way perfect in my installation, I even had some issues during Phase I that required fixing under the cowl after the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th flight. I even had some issues underneath the cowl I had to address at the last condition inspection. However, I am not at all interested in submitting my admittedly fragile ego to the same smug indignation, or even the opposite, 'pats on the back' for a job well done attitude, that could come from such a submission. Even the opposite reaction to the prevailing comments here still would have their basis in the smug attitude that is prevailing in these comments.

Everyone has issues that need addressing in their construction practices. I think it poor taste to openly post in a format that ensures there will be anonymous bashing of someone's construction or maintenance practices without at least giving that person the benefit of 'addressing her/his detractors' first hand and having the opportunity to personally address the shortcomings that might be evident in her/his build. Why is it not appropriate to contact the builder and inquire into that person's building practices that might lead to an offer of some of the above advice to the person directly? If he is so bad at building that these issues are so terribly bad or inappropriate, then it behooves all of us in this community to address the issue directly with that person. It does him or others reading these posts little good to hide behind a computer screen while we smugly imply with our comments that we are much better builders than this person and would never make such mistakes. If this person needs some direction on best practices and build quality, does anyone here really think he will get it from these comments on this forum? I for one, do not think he will gain much from it, nor will most of us reading these posts. At best we may glean some measure of knowledge we may not have understood much about before, but at what cost is that knowledge? We are basically just joining in on the camaraderie with a group that implies that we belong to an elite group of individuals that would NEVER BUILD ANYTHING SO LACKING!

Please, we are better than that! Aren't we?

Bavafa 06-24-2014 02:17 PM

This is actually a great exercise, next time I have my cowl off I will take a few pix and will post it to get so many good eyes on it. How could I not have thought of that 500 hours ago at my first flight. Luckily it went fine.

krw5927 06-24-2014 03:00 PM

Not smug indignation
 
This thread serves as a great education for most of us who look at these sorts of photos and comments with open eyes and minds and are willing to learn a thing or two.

I am lucky to live in a community with several experienced builders who could point me in the right direction when needed. Not everyone has that luxury, though, and threads like this may just save someone's life someday. There were things that I didn't even think of which were pointed out by experienced observers, and I feel that I learned something here. The fact that these issues were addressed in a public forum is the very reason there is an educational opportunity. If they had been discussed privately with the builder or buyer, then the rest of us lost the opportunity to learn.

If someone's feelings (including mine) are hurt in the interest of greater overall safety, then so be it. To anyone who ever lays eyes on my plane: please point out ANYTHING that you feel may be even the slightest bit unsafe. I may decide to ignore you, but at least I would be educated that there may be a problem.

lostpilot28 06-24-2014 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RVbySDI (Post 891446)
Everyone has issues that need addressing in their construction practices. I think it poor taste to openly post in a format that ensures there will be anonymous bashing of someone's construction or maintenance practices...

Well said, Steve...I for one agree with you.

Kurt, I think the point is the lack of discussing the problems in a factual manner. Instead, the tone in which many are using is pretty bad.

RVbySDI 06-24-2014 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krw5927 (Post 891460)
This thread serves as a great education for most of us who look at these sorts of photos and comments with open eyes and minds and are willing to learn a thing or two.

I am lucky to live in a community with several experienced builders who could point me in the right direction when needed. Not everyone has that luxury, though, and threads like this may just save someone's life someday. There were things that I didn't even think of which were pointed out by experienced observers, and I feel that I learned something here. The fact that these issues were addressed in a public forum is the very reason there is an educational opportunity. If they had been discussed privately with the builder or buyer, then the rest of us lost the opportunity to learn.

If someone's feelings (including mine) are hurt in the interest of greater overall safety, then so be it. To anyone who ever lays eyes on my plane: please point out ANYTHING that you feel may be even the slightest bit unsafe. I may decide to ignore you, but at least I would be educated that there may be a problem.

Perhaps my point was not well articulated. I also had multiple individuals, experienced and otherwise, go over my plane many times during the build. They still do so to this day 4 years later anytime they are around any work I am doing. That was not my point. I was not implying that the education was not of some value. What I am saying is why not talk to the builder FIRST. Afterwards everyone can have a public discussion of the issues that were addressed with the builder.

paul mosher 06-24-2014 04:09 PM

builder
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RVbySDI (Post 891469)
Perhaps my point was not well articulated. I also had multiple individuals, experienced and otherwise, go over my plane many times during the build. They still do so to this day 4 years later anytime they are around any work I am doing. That was not my point. I was not implying that the education was not of some value. What I am saying is why not talk to the builder FIRST. Afterwards everyone can have a public discussion of the issues that were addressed with the builder.

No one knows who the builder is except the guy that bought the plane.
I don't think there was a lot of bashing. I suggested a good reference ala 43:13 or Tony B's books is better than winging it.
I'd rather have my feelings hurt than be dead.

N941WR 06-24-2014 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RVbySDI (Post 891446)
.... I am sure I was in no way perfect in my installation, I even had some issues during Phase I that required fixing under the cowl after the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th flight. I even had some issues underneath the cowl I had to address at the last condition inspection.

As have the rest of us. That is exactly the point of this thread. It was posted so the rest of us can learn from this example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RVbySDI (Post 891446)
However, I am not at all interested in submitting my admittedly fragile ego to the same smug indignation, or even the opposite, 'pats on the back' for a job well done attitude, that could come from such a submission....

That is fine and exactly the reason I offered to post pictures anonymously. I would think that if we posted pictures from a certified airplane, this gang would find something to pick at. That is a good thing as we can all learn something and improve our installation.

N941WR 06-24-2014 07:40 PM

Education
 
After reading some of the comments that this thread have generated, I am driven to make the following comments. These are not directed towards any individual or specific comment.

As a forum group, are we not here to learn? If we don't post these types of things and allow people to comment (good and bad) how can any of us understand what is "correct" and "incorrect", "good" or "bad", "acceptable" or "unacceptable"?

Is there more than one way to install a fuel injection system? Yes, the example at the start of this thread is one. There are probably other installations that are working fine, in the environment they operate. However, move the plane to the desert Southwest or the upper Midwest and things may change rather drastically.

There are "standard" practices that people use or avoid. Some work, heck all might work, but some won't and I believe most of us would rather be on the side of what works all the time in all conditions.

If we can't post these types of safety of flight issues (and having your engine die when you turn off the boost pump is a safety of flight issue) and allow for an unobstructed exchange of information, then we might as well shut the forum down as it will only post what is politically correct and deemed acceptable by the moderators (who have a tough enough job already).

(One last comment, the owner of this plane gave me his permission to post those pictures and is following this thread. He is new to the Experimental world and this has been a learning experience for him. One of his comments has been that he is thrilled to find a bunch of people who are willing to pitch in and help a stranger. As for the rest of his aircraft, it appeared to be a high quality build with just some issues in the engine installation, which have been addressed.)

DeltaRomeo 06-24-2014 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N941WR (Post 891544)
After reading some ....snip

Great comments, Bill !!!!! Well said.

RVbySDI 06-24-2014 10:18 PM

This is my last comment on this thread.

I am in no way saying the information discussed is not of value. My issue has nothing to do with providing information for the uninitiated and I believe I already said as much.

Bill, you keep referring to the current owner of this airplane and how any comments are not directed toward him. I do not contest that idea, but my point was that the comments ARE directed toward the builder. Your original post eluded to the fact that this is that builder's 14th build. Others have posted that is a concern as well. I am saying that what is happening on this thread is a 'can you believe what this guy did' bashing contest! You even start the ball rolling by the thread's title: HOW MANY ISSUES CAN YOU FIND!

Why post on a public forum such things without addressing those concerns with the builder first? Since you are telling us information concerning the number of airplanes this builder has built prior to this one I cannot help but infer from your comments that at least you know who that builder is. I would expect common courtesy would dictate discussing the concerns you originally had with this build with him before you go using his build shortcommings as a 'TEACHING MOMENT'.

If this were my plane you posted pictures of without talking to me FIRST, I would take great offense at that action and consider it very insulting. On the other hand if you were to come to me in person and discuss the issues you saw with me, then asked for my permission to post what you found wrong with my build on a public forum in order to educate the uninitiated, I would be much less insulted by that and more inclined to be willing to contribute to the education of others. However, starting the dialog by making it a contest for others to nit pick what they see wrong in a handful of pictures is definitely not taking the high road.

I am finished commenting on this thread. Everyone here can now bash anything I have said. It is irrelevant to me if you do so. It is apparent that many on here know better what is needed in order to educate others than do I, so I bow out of the conversation.

jjconstant 06-25-2014 01:02 AM

I always appreciate other sets of eyes looking for "issues" on my plane and having been invited to do so on this example I would also offer that it appears that the ignition leads are the automotive type that come with electronic ignitions and the leads appear to be tie wrapped together. There should be stand-offs keeping the wires apart from each other and away from any metal they could arc to. This is only if they are indeed un-shielded high voltage wires.

sprucemoose 06-25-2014 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RVbySDI (Post 891590)
This is my last comment on this thread.

This is my first comment on this thread, and I'm going to disagree with you. All of your points are valid and I would agree with you if this were a 1st time builder flying behind their own workmanship. The fact that this is a person who built this airplane to sell to another (why else would one have built 14 RVs) raises the bar to another level. Much like the FAA which places tighter reigns on commercial operations (maintenance, medical certification, inspections, etc...) I think we in the community need to hold "hired guns" to a higher standard.

While I respect Bill's decision not to name the builder, I disagree with it. I would name him publicly and advise anyone who bought one of his airplanes (at least 13 we know of) to take a close look under the hood for the same issues seen here. As others have pointed out, these are not just cosmetic issues but safety of flight issues, and safety concerns are not to be handled with kid gloves.

lostpilot28 06-25-2014 08:21 AM

Jeff, you're speculating as to the builder's intent. You don't know what his motivation was for building 14 airplanes. You don't know if they were all different, and he was simply trying something new.

I agree with having a factual dialogue about finding problems and fixing them...and that's what Steve and a couple others have said here, as well. The issue I have is the way it's being communicated. I seriously doubt that ANY of those that have "bashed" the builder have a perfectly built airplane, and if you posted a picture on this forum of one of their problems and said "can you believe he did it THIS way??"...that guy would be pissed. If not, well, I'd be really surprised.

paul mosher 06-25-2014 08:22 AM

I agree
 
With sprucemoose. I didn't think of the builder acting like a manufacturer.
If that is the case his/her identity should be revealed.
Should we stop airworthiness directives because they may hurt Cessna's feelings?

sprucemoose 06-25-2014 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lostpilot28 (Post 891658)
Jeff, you're speculating as to the builder's intent. You don't know what his motivation was for building 14 airplanes. You don't know if they were all different, and he was simply trying something new.

I'm drawing the only reasonable conclusion from the limited facts presented. The legality/ propriety of hired guns is another debate for another thread. Frankly the builder's intent is irrelevant to this discussion; if he is foisting unairworthy aircraft on an unsuspecting buying public it matters little whether the intent was profit or fun.

paul mosher 06-25-2014 09:05 AM

builder
 
The guy that owns the airplanes wished to show the photos. The builder no longer owns the airplane and has no voice in the matter unless the owner has agreed to some sort of non disclosure agreement.
How many "**** previous owner" posts have there been on this site? Haven't heard any complaints about them.

MikeyDale 06-25-2014 09:18 AM

Well at least we know the boost pump was effective combating the vapor lock. There is a bright side to everything.

BillL 06-25-2014 11:19 AM

It was interesting looking at others work, but really not too surprising considering the mass of homebuilts I have seen at OSH in the past decades. The RV group stands as a bright spot as a whole.

Specifically, my lycoming manual says a max of -2psi at the inlet to the mechanical pump. I assume that is at max fuel flow. Clearly there needs to me a temperature limit too, but I have not found one. It would seem that rather than point to this and that as bad, a good "installation" test with some numbers would allow some design/build flexibility against a hard standard. Hmmmm - - This subject might make a good article for Kitplanes.

I certainly agree that we should approach safety items (as herein) with constructive criticism and not an elevated mocking tone. The objective is to improve and promote safe practices, not to insult others or their work.

Mike S 06-25-2014 11:26 AM

Well Said
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillL (Post 891735)
I certainly agree that we should approach safety items (as herein) with constructive criticism and not an elevated mocking tone. The objective is to improve and promote safe practices, not to insult others or their work.

Bill, most eloquently put.

Right On.

rbibb 06-25-2014 11:26 AM

I agree with Steve's comments. Something about the whole tone of the discussion just started bothering me. While I'm all about safety and education I just didn't like the way this ended up going without the builder subject to the comments not being able to defend himself.

'nough said, this is still better than looking at cat videos on Facebook.

meloosifah 06-12-2015 07:13 AM

All I can say is that this is why I hate the internet and all forms of social media. Someone actually refererred to the "tone" of the thread?!?! Are you serious? Tone implies hearing and these are simply written words. To get upset about the tone of a written article is absurd. Let me give an example. I say "you're an idiot." Am I insulting someone and challenging them to a dual to the death or am I telling my kid brother that I love him? You see, there is no "tone" involved. The tone is what you would "hear" that would tell you if that comment is meant to be angry, degrading, sarcastic or loving.

For the record, the builder lost all rights in my opinion, when he sold this plane. The owner now has every right.

I guarantee if you sell me **** that you installed and it threatens the life of my kids, it WILL be on this site, WITH your name right beside it. I think it is great reatraint that the builders name is not on here. However, Just because he screwed something up in one area doesn't mean the whole project is bad.

Bottom line, if we can't learn from other peoples mistakes we are doomed to repeat them. I don't know the first thing about injection installation but I am planning an m1b1 so this thread is getting tagged. Most of us learn better from what's wrong than what's right.

I bought a slightly misrepresented project and I guarantee that there are going to be pictures up here one day without the builders permission (or name) asking for advice/review/suggestions and simply so others can see what experienced people (including tech counselors) will pass off as "great workmanship". And in my opinion he only acceptable response from the builder or the tech counselor would be gratitude that their names are not in the captions.

I would expect nothing less from any of you and HIGHLY value the opportunity to learn from all this.

flyboy1963 06-12-2015 09:38 AM

my $.02
 
hmmmm,

I like a thread that shows best practices; I guess we wouldn't know what that was without a 'bad' example.

in this case, what some comments miss is the 'why'.

" don't zip-tie to the engine mount BECAUSE it can wear thru the tube over time..."

then guys like us can learn from this.

Most of the thread has become about the builder, which will end up with it being closed....
have we forgotten that these are 'experimental' aircraft?...and I don't mean we should not follow best practices.
but when we get the flight permit approval, we have met some minimum standard.
when we buy an amateur-built aircraft, it does not come with a warranty, it's as is, as built, buyer must establish it's airworthiness....typically by doing an 'annual', CCI or similar.

and at SOME POINT IN IT'S PAST, it met the standards of the DAR, FAA, MOT, etc.
it may now have a Kawasaki engine, TBI, FADEC, extra wing, VG's, etc. and these are not STC'd.

yes, these are built for our education and recreation, and as such, there is broad latitude given to many systems and components.
I like photos of 'how not to do it', but I think it should stop there.

MikeyDale 06-12-2015 04:39 PM

Actually this thread was very timely for me as I was doing my firewall forward. I picked up on a few of the comments and they helped me. My engine was a IO360 B1E and the flow divider was on the left side. I moved mine between the 1 & 3 cylinders to shorten the fuel line from the servo.

PhatRV 05-28-2020 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N941WR (Post 891064)
#2:

#3:

#4

Can you explain the AD about the fuel spider lines and why this is dangerous? I never looked inside an engine cowl of a good flyable airplane and don't know what is acceptable from the crapped out C150 most of us learned to fly on.

Thanks

N941WR 05-28-2020 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhatRV (Post 1434118)
Can you explain the AD about the fuel spider lines and why this is dangerous? I never looked inside an engine cowl of a good flyable airplane and don't know what is acceptable from the crapped out C150 most of us learned to fly on.

Thanks

Adding a second set of adel clamps reduces vibration, thus reduces the chance of one of those lines cracking.

Unfortunately, this thread turned negative with a number of people wanting to attack the builder rather than use it as a learning tool, which was the intention.

abwaldal@gmail.com 05-28-2020 09:51 AM

Thanks
 
Thanks for and to the original poster.
I was a hands on builder that built custom homes for a living for 40+ years and when we though we were done we would go back through the home and detail it. Usually finding more stuff to fix. Then my wife would do the same.
I have been in court many a time. Called as an expert witness against other builders.
With all the parts of big custom homes most builders are not experienced enough to get it right. The customer is relying on the 'professional' to know what they are doing. Most just screw things up or just don't do them.
Did a walk through for some friends on a "new" $550,000.00 home and found 40-50 areas needing help. Leaking pipes, no grounds, water where it's no suppose to be, on and on. Oh ya it was move in ready. Ha Ha.
Airplanes are no different just more deadly. If you don't know, how ya gonna do it right? Thanks for posters and this forum it helps.
I've built one airplane and am still looking.
Thanks again for this forum and all it's great help. Art

Taltruda 05-28-2020 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhatRV (Post 1434118)
Can you explain the AD about the fuel spider lines and why this is dangerous? I never looked inside an engine cowl of a good flyable airplane and don't know what is acceptable from the crapped out C150 most of us learned to fly on.

Thanks

The AD is 2015-19-07 https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...7?OpenDocument

And directs you to MSB 342g https://www.lycoming.com/sites/defau...stallation.pdf

PhatRV 05-28-2020 05:50 PM

Thanks for the link to the AD. I would have used one clamp if I didn't stumble this thread.

Bavafa 05-28-2020 08:06 PM

Looking at the second picture alone, how does the fuel line from the servo gets routed to the spider? Is this really running the fuel line from the back of the engine to the front and then routed all the way back thru the baffle?
Also, what are the baffle material on the firewall? I am wondering how the cowl gets fitted to the fuse. Then there is cold blasting tube from the baffle to the firewall which is not clear what it is for.

N941WR 05-28-2020 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bavafa (Post 1434316)
Looking at the second picture alone, how does the fuel line from the servo gets routed to the spider? Is this really running the fuel line from the back of the engine to the front and then routed all the way back thru the baffle?

Yep, and it is laid on top of the cylinder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bavafa (Post 1434316)
Also, what are the baffle material on the firewall? I am wondering how the cowl gets fitted to the fuse. Then there is cold blasting tube from the baffle to the firewall which is not clear what it is for.

IIRC, there were electronics up there that the builder was trying to protect.

Did you notice that the intercylinder baffles were on the top of the cylinders and not on the bottom. Not only that but one was laying on top of push tube? That alone could cause some serious issues.

scsmith 05-28-2020 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N941WR (Post 1434145)
Adding a second set of adel clamps reduces vibration, thus reduces the chance of one of those lines cracking.

In addition to the absence of the second Adel clamp, the routing of the fuel lines from the spider to the injectors is non-standard, and could easily cause issues. The standard routing is fairly direct to the injectors from the spider, running along the pushrods above the cylinders, but NOT running any where close to the cylinder heads. The extra length of those lines, just above the cylinder heads, will worsen the boiling of fuel in those lines after shutdown that makes hot starts 'difficult' as well as potentially cause vapor lock while the engine is running.

scsmith 05-28-2020 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taltruda (Post 1434169)

One example of the positive and constructive impact of this thread is the identification of this AD. I was unaware of it. At this moment, I do not know for sure if my engine has two clamps or one on each fuel line from the spider to the injector. But I will certainly check the next time my cowl is off, so THANK YOU!

Taltruda 05-28-2020 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scsmith (Post 1434344)
One example of the positive and constructive impact of this thread is the identification of this AD. I was unaware of it. At this moment, I do not know for sure if my engine has two clamps or one on each fuel line from the spider to the injector. But I will certainly check the next time my cowl is off, so THANK YOU!

You?re welcome! Your A&P should run ADs on your engine and provided you with this.. pretty basic stuff, but it gets almost overwhelming with all the information out there! Also to point out, it may be due to an over abundance of caution on their part, but in the AD, (Or was it the SB) it says that if only one clamp is found (or no clamps) to replace the fuel line. I imagine because they can?t determine how much fatigue the line endured while operating unsupported..

scsmith 05-29-2020 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taltruda (Post 1434352)
You?re welcome! Your A&P should run ADs on your engine and provided you with this.. pretty basic stuff, but it gets almost overwhelming with all the information out there! Also to point out, it may be due to an over abundance of caution on their part, but in the AD, (Or was it the SB) it says that if only one clamp is found (or no clamps) to replace the fuel line. I imagine because they can?t determine how much fatigue the line endured while operating unsupported..

Well, I hold the repairman's cert. so no A&P. I checked all the AD's at the time of engine install, but I confess I do not routinely look to see if new ones are out. In this case the SB is a revision to a previous one, and I expect my engine was brought to compliance with the older version when it was overhauled to certificated standards. But I will check.

As it happens, diagram 4 of the SB which applies to my engine, shows just one clamp on the right side cylinders, and two clamps for the left side, one of the clamps being on an L bracket to a case bolt. So I will check to see if I have those.


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