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-   -   Radio Call - RV use in initial calls to controller / tower (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=11378)

az_gila 08-02-2008 10:58 AM

It's well documented...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironflight (Post 244460)
By my Ops Limitations, it is required for the first call up to a Control Tower, and then not after. I wish folks would answer questions like this based on documented facts, and not just post what they heard, what they think, or what they were told. This is a clear cut issue of what is documented (not necessarily "what makes sense") and can be easily looked up.

Paul


Paul is correct, the facts win out here...

It's not just in your Operating Limitations, but it's also specifically in a FAR...

FAR 91.319 (partial)

(d) Each person operating an aircraft that has an experimental certificate shall--
(1) Advise each person carried of the experimental nature of the aircraft;
(2) Operate under VFR, day only, unless otherwise specifically authorized by the Administrator; and
(3) Notify the control tower of the experimental nature of the aircraft when operating the aircraft into or out of airports with operating control towers

This makes it also cover my Experimental, Exhibition and Racing sailplane - which does not have it in it's old (1977) Operating Limitations.

SkywayCaptain 08-10-2008 07:15 PM

Why don't you just send a letter to each control tower letting them know of the experimental nature of your aircraft? This would meet the requirements of the op limits and the reg. There is NO specific requirement to use the word "experimental" on the radio.

AlexPeterson 08-10-2008 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironflight (Post 244460)
By my Ops Limitations, it is required for the first call up to a Control Tower, and then not after. I wish folks would answer questions like this based on documented facts, and not just post what they heard, what they think, or what they were told. This is a clear cut issue of what is documented (not necessarily "what makes sense") and can be easily looked up.

Paul

Well, you probably are correct. However, since there are no factory built RV's, notifying the tower that you are an RV does "notify the tower" that you are experimental.

That being said - I still use the word "experimental", but the tower guys around here simply call back with "RV 66AP". I'll ask the tower guys next chance what they've been told.

And on and on goes the discussion.

Mitch757 08-10-2008 07:55 PM

My Ops Limits say exactly what Mel said, but also includes IFR filing restrictions: "(24) The pilot in command of this aircraft must notify air traffic control of the experimental nature of this aircraft when operating into or out of airports with an operational control tower. When filing instrument flight rules (IFR), the experimental nature of this aircraft must be listed in the remarks section of the flight plan."

It appears that when just using VFR flight following the word "experimental" is not required (at least for my aircraft).

Mitch Garner
RV-4 flying
PL-4 flying

Mel 08-10-2008 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch757 (Post 246693)
My Ops Limits say exactly what Mel said, but also includes IFR filing restrictions: "(24) The pilot in command of this aircraft must notify air traffic control of the experimental nature of this aircraft when operating into or out of airports with an operational control tower. When filing instrument flight rules (IFR), the experimental nature of this aircraft must be listed in the remarks section of the flight plan."

It appears that when just using VFR flight following the word "experimental" is not required (at least for my aircraft).

Mitch Garner
RV-4 flying
PL-4 flying

That's 2 sentences. The first one which requires you to "notify ATC" says nothing about IFR.

You are however correct about "flight following". The requirement is "when operating into or out of airports with an operational control tower."

sprucemoose 08-11-2008 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n5lp (Post 243841)
calling oneself an "experimental" on the CTAF is my number one pet peeve.

Not just you! Worse is "Experimental November 1234 Alpha..." OK, are you a Lancair IV or a Breezy? Gimme something here.

Forgive my marginally useful contribution to an otherwise good discussion.

gmcjetpilot 08-11-2008 02:45 AM

If you don't say Experimental another controller may chew you out?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by N941WR (Post 243834)
While on the way to OSH I flew through the DET class Bravo airspace. The controller I spoke to told me RV's are now a recognized aircraft type and we no longer need to use "Experimental" when checking in.

Could it be? Have we been "accepted" by the FAA?

Have any of the rest of you been told the same by ATC?

I did not read all the replies but that is not LAW. Unless there is some public change in the FAR's, RV's are experimental. I am under the opinion on initial call up you should say experimental RV-7, N-number.

Controllers can be cranky (no offense). One will say it's NOT necessary to say experimental and another will demand you say it on initial call up. The next controller will demand you say it RV7 not just RV. Just say yes sir. However don't wear out "experimental" once is enough than just N number. Un-controlled field its up to you. Personally I like hearing experimental because I know most experimentals flying around are smaller and faster than your typical GA plane.

It has to be in the AIM/FAR. If the controller lectures you, than get THEIR number and call them with your anytime minutes. Let them explain it and give the reference, if they are going to teach you over the Com radio.

It could be the controller was saying I KNOW ITS EXPERIMENTAL. Fine but there is nothing wrong with saying it on inital. Unless they changed the regulation and Pilot/Controller responsibilities you are required to say experimental on initial call up. You are not allowed to fly over heavily populated areas unless taking off or landing (which kind of gives you a lot of latitude).

Also if you tell a controller "RV N-number" with out the DASH number, they might get on your case. WHAT RV? You need to tell them what type, they will say. I have heard that before. I think it's nit picky, since most all RV's have the same shape and performance, but since there is now a RV10 (bigger) and RV12 (slower) it makes more sense. Its like Cessna can be a Citation Jet or a C-152.

I have heard enough controllers to know some have pet peeves. If you DON'T say experimental another will chew you out.

There is nothing that says an RV is not experimental, even though they are popular and more are flying than some GA factory birds.

This happend to me once. I was doing flight test in some Pipers, one a twin Comanche, the other a Tomahawk. Both times the planes where in experimental status, for a fight test period to gain STC's on those planes. They where both in fact experimental Piper XYZ's. One controller just got nasty with me about the experimental status. WHY IS THAT EXPERIMENTAL? I told him I'd call him when I got on the ground and tell him, but the big letters on the side of the plane say experimental. I guess I could have not mentioned it. However again you are not allowed to fly over populated areas unless taking off or landing. Unless they change the AIM/FAR it is required to say experimental on initial call up in MY opinion.

Kahuna 08-11-2008 05:35 AM

Does anyone know what the original intent of this op lims language was?
Did/Do tower controllers handle experimental planes differently?
Why the language in the op lims. There must be a reason for it.
Perhaps controllers pay extra attention to experimental planes?

N395V 08-11-2008 07:03 AM

Quote:

calling oneself an "experimental" on the CTAF is my number one pet peeve.

Not just you! Worse is "Experimental November 1234 Alpha..." OK, are you a Lancair IV or a Breezy? Gimme something here.

Forgive my marginally useful contribution to an otherwise good discussion.
I fly a Radial Rocket more specifically a "Concannon, Milton Radial Rocket 91TX".

That is quite a mouthful on the Radio as opposed to "Experimental 91TX"

Only 2 Radial Rockets have ever flown and I suspect less than 1% of all pilots and controllers have seen one or are familiar with their performance. As such identifying myself as experimental tells you what to look for just as much as using the long winded name. If you are in the pattern when I call in as experimental and must know what I look like just ask and I will tell you a 2/3 scale F8 bearcat.


I suspect the requirement to say experimental comes from a time when there were few experimentals and not a lot of approach control radar. It allowed the controller to ask performance ie speed on final and aided in sequencing at busy airports. Most controllers by now are probably quite familiar with RVs, lancairs, velocites etc, but everytime one asks what I am and I say Radial Rocket I get silence followed by "whats that" mthis continued back and forth on the radio ticks people off more than simply using the word experimental so pet peeve or not I will continue to use experimental as a descriptor in my communications.

Ron Lee 08-11-2008 08:05 AM

Clarification
 
Reference this quote:

"By my Ops Limitations, it is required for the first call up to a Control Tower, and then not after."

I am assuming that you mean any ATC element at airport XYZ.

Example, you call XYZ Approach and use "Experimental" then never say "Experimental" again when handed off to tower then ground.

Likewise, after having breakfast you contact ground and use "Experimental" but not again when you go to the tower then handed off to departure?

Correct?


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