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-   -   Fltplan Go, free with Canadian Charts and CFS (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=113116)

vlittle 05-18-2014 09:28 AM

Fltplan Go, free with Canadian Charts and CFS
 
This is a first look review of the Fltpan Go app for the iPad.
Hardware: iPad Mini, iOS 7.1.1, cellular, 32G
App: Fltplan Go version 2.5.4, May 8, 2014

Preamble: Canada has been terribly underserved by the lack of availability of digital charts and publications due to the inaction of Nav Canada. Recently, Foreflight brought complete mapping/publication data to their slick 'gold standard' App.

Unfortunately, a $175 per year subscription for Foreflight, plus a similar fee for Pocket FMS on my SkyView plus a Jeppesen update fee for my Aera puts my total annual cost north of $400 for databases. For one of my VFR aircraft, this is about $10 per operating hour. Put another way, this is more than the engine depreciation cost! Something is fundamentally wrong.

IFR pilots face much more onerous costs, to be sure, but that's another topic.

So when Fltplan.com announced their Go app with FREE Canadian charts and publications, I was cautiously optimistic. I downloaded the Fltplan Go app from the Apple store and spent a day getting familiar with the basic operation, including a cross-country flight.

....more....

vlittle 05-18-2014 09:55 AM

...continued...

The executive summary of my short evaluation: Fltplan Go is not ready for prime time.

I found five bugs very quickly, one of which is fatal. Here is my description and Fltplan's official response:

-missing VFR procedures from the CFS. They are available for download into a separate 'binder' section, but they are not searchable. For example, BC has 49 pages of approaches that you have to scroll through one by one to find a particular airport.

RESPONSE: 'In the future we hope to have additional means in accessing this information.'

-on app startup, the map layer selections are forgotten and must be reconfigured. This means that I get a blank map page because the default is the USA.

RESPONSE: 'Thanks for your comments'

-On a fresh startup of the app, none of the Airport Diagrams or A/FD links work properly. Touching the Downloads tab, then immediately back to Airports tab, then everything works fine. (Note, this is not the same as refreshing downloads)

RESPONSE: 'Thanks for your comments'

-When using the graphical flight plan editing, when I attempt to insert waypoints by rubber banding and selecting lat/lon, the app tends to insert the new waypoint after the next sequential waypoint than before it. This requires manual editing to fix.

RESPONSE: 'This is a known bug and will be fixed in a future update.'

-the app becomes slower and slower in response to selections and gestures until it eventually locks up. This happens on the ground and in flight. A cold start of the app fixes the problem for a while, but is not practical in flight because it loses the map settings as reported earlier.

RESPONSE: This sounds like you iPad's memory is 'maxed' out.
Please close out all the other apps you might have open on your iPad (whether you are using them or not), and just run the FltPlan Go app
We have no known problems for this, and no other similar complaints.
As a matter of fact, we have pilots using the app for over 5 hours straight in flight with no lockup or sluggishness.

UPDATE: even with all other apps closed down, this continues to be a problem. A simple test with the app open is to alternately press the Maps button and the Airports button. After about 10 sequences the application slows down and then about 15 sequences it locks up entirely. I can reproduce this at will.

RESPONSE: none

...more...

vlittle 05-18-2014 10:15 AM

...continued...

At this point I stopped looking for bugs. There are many other features in the application that I did not check, however, I wanted to get the basic operation operating smoothly before diving in too deep.

I also noticed that the maps do not support VTAs yet. These are similar to the US TAC charts. To be fair, Pocket FMS did not support VTA data either until I worked with them to get it included in their databases. Jeppesen does not support VTA data. Only Foreflight currently supports accurate VTA information in raster form.

I am a huge fan of the promise of Fltplan Go and that's why I provided the bug reports directly to them and worked with them to improve their product. Unfortunately because of the fatal in-flight lock up, I can't recommend this product for prime time.

I am very experienced with product development, including the new mantra of 'do it, try it, fix it' that business schools are promoting. I don't think that this model should apply to aviation. In any case, when serious bugs are reported, denial or silence is NOT the appropriate response.

I've had the experience of reporting bugs to Dynon and Pocket FMS recently. Despite my grumblings about the bugs both companies took me seriously and addressed the issues.

I hope that Fltplan can step it up.

JimS 05-18-2014 12:56 PM

I agree with Vern..
 
I have FltPln GO on my Nexus 7 tablet and their newest GO software is really NOT user friendly. I used their previous software and really liked it. Faster downloads, easier access to the info I was looking for. New version, if I pinch (zoom in ) too far the map disappears. And yes I have tried the zoom lock On and Off. Anyway, thought it was just me being computer dumb, Happy to see it isn't that.rolleyes: Other issues too. Guess I'll have to pony up for a pay per view map program.

vlittle 05-18-2014 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimS (Post 880750)
I have FltPln GO on my Nexus 7 tablet and their newest GO software is really NOT user friendly. I used their previous software and really liked it. Faster downloads, easier access to the info I was looking for. New version, if I pinch (zoom in ) too far the map disappears. And yes I have tried the zoom lock On and Off. Anyway, thought it was just me being computer dumb, Happy to see it isn't that.rolleyes: Other issues too. Guess I'll have to pony up for a pay per view map program.

I too have the zoom in problem. Didn't report it as a bug, though. I also found the app is not very user friendly. For example, if you forget to load the airports database, it just does nothing rather than notify you.

I really want these folks to be successful, but they have to be more responsive.

Snowflake 05-19-2014 10:33 AM

Interesting report on functionality on the iPad Mini. I installed FltPLan Go on my Android phone (Nexus 5) and did a bunch of testing as well. I haven't flown with it yet, so my usage maxed out at about 30 minutes when I was putting it through its paces at home. I later installed it on my wife's Nexus 7 tablet and tried it there as well. Apart from being a little slower on the Nexus 7, the functionality was the same (but the larger screen was nice).

I didn't have any issues with maps not defaulting properly, or AFD pages not coming up.

The CFS pages, apart from not having procedures as you mention (CYYJ was the first airport I looked up...), also don't have small grass strips (try finding CAK3, for example). Not a problem for most commercial pilots, who I think the app is targeted towards. But for recreational pilots of light singles, it might be an issue.

No VTA makes it less useful as well. Here around Vancouver, a lot of us never leave the VTA... But I suspect this is something that will change over time. Looking at how they've handled the Seattle VNC to Seattle TAC chart transition gives me hope that the Canadian map will be just as nice soon.

The thing that kept running through my mind is "how are they able to do this for free?"

vlittle 05-19-2014 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake (Post 880977)

The thing that kept running through my mind is "how are they able to do this for free?"

There are embedded ads.

Anyway, I keep finding bugs (e.g. heading -7 degrees??). Lots of features, few of them work.

Good, fast, cheap, pick two.

I finally bailed and purchased PocketFMS. They have all of the VTA frequency data embedded which is a big help. I worked with them on this and they were very responsive to suggestions.

FasGlas 05-20-2014 05:24 PM

I've been using Avare on my Nexus 7. It's free and works very well. You can download the App from the Play Store.

rocketbob 05-20-2014 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FasGlas (Post 881424)
I've been using Avare on my Nexus 7. It's free and works very well. You can download the App from the Play Store.

Avare works well, needs just a small bit more polish. Since the code is open source I downloaded the code and got it to compile in Android Studio. I can change things around as I please :)

The code is well structured and I recognize a few RV guys working on the project.

Canadian_JOY 05-21-2014 08:03 AM

I have Avare running on my Nexus 7, as well as Avilution - I like them both. The only problem is the lack of Canadian charts. Have looked at PocketFMS but for the $$ it's hard to beat the slick operation of the iPad with Foreflight and Canadian charts.

flyboy1963 05-21-2014 11:01 AM

with Canadian charts????
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FasGlas (Post 881424)
I've been using Avare on my Nexus 7. It's free and works very well. You can download the App from the Play Store.

sorry, but I'm following this discussion due to Vern's OP about 'Canadian flight planning options.'

can you pirep Avare if applicable.....please?

Snowflake 05-21-2014 05:47 PM

Perry, Avare doesn't have Canadian charts.

I still think the best bang-for-the-buck for Canadians is Air Navigation Pro. One time purchase (no annual fee). Free basemap and terrain data, free airspace overlays. It's not the official chart, but it's enough for a VFR pilot.

FltPlan Go is a close second, the official charts are nice but the lack of terminal charts (VTA's) makes it a non-starter in my area. There's too much going on, and the sectional (VNC) leaves off a lot of the data because you should really be looking at the VTA anyway.

Norman CYYJ 05-21-2014 05:48 PM

The latest up date is in the apple store now. It's getting better.

vlittle 05-21-2014 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman CYYJ (Post 881733)
The latest up date is in the apple store now. It's getting better.

All of my reported bugs are still there, including the lock- up.

Jermechanic 05-26-2014 01:47 AM

MOA Info
 
I'am loving the new digital charts as I just entered the IPAd age and have fltplan go. Is there a place to check MOA info such as altitudes restrictions on this app? ***Figured it out to turn on SUA's- really liking this app so far. Be great to take it up in the plane and try it out!

Norman CYYJ 05-31-2014 11:16 AM

I haven't had any crashes with the latest up date of FltPlan released this week. How's it working for others?

vlittle 05-31-2014 05:41 PM

Lock up problem seems fixed. Flight plan rubber banding still faulty. I haven't checked the other bugs yet.

Snowflake 06-01-2014 09:55 AM

"Binders" are now working on the Android version. You can save favorite airports, approach plates, etc. to a binder for quicker reference.

"Checklists" now works on Android as well. Looks like you have to make them on the FltPLan.com website, then they get downloaded to the app. Has anyone made one for an RV yet? The process is rather cumbersome so i'm not going to do it unless I can modify something existing...

vlittle 06-01-2014 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake (Post 884726)
"Binders" are now working on the Android version. You can save favorite airports, approach plates, etc. to a binder for quicker reference.

"Checklists" now works on Android as well. Looks like you have to make them on the FltPLan.com website, then they get downloaded to the app. Has anyone made one for an RV yet? The process is rather cumbersome so i'm not going to do it unless I can modify something existing...

Check PM <.....>

vlittle 06-01-2014 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vlittle (Post 884550)
Lock up problem seems fixed. Flight plan rubber banding still faulty. I haven't checked the other bugs yet.

Spoke too soon. Lock up fixed, but maps will not work at all after a cold start without an internet connection.

Update**** It turns out that after an upgrade, one must reload the charts and databases, even though the app says they are up to date. Go figure, but this seems to work.

vlittle 06-30-2014 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vlittle (Post 880724)
...continued...

At this point I stopped looking for bugs. There are many other features in the application that I did not check, however, I wanted to get the basic operation operating smoothly before diving in too deep.

I also noticed that the maps do not support VTAs yet. These are similar to the US TAC charts. To be fair, Pocket FMS did not support VTA data either until I worked with them to get it included in their databases. Jeppesen does not support VTA data. Only Foreflight currently supports accurate VTA information in raster form.

I am a huge fan of the promise of Fltplan Go and that's why I provided the bug reports directly to them and worked with them to improve their product. Unfortunately because of the fatal in-flight lock up, I can't recommend this product for prime time.

I am very experienced with product development, including the new mantra of 'do it, try it, fix it' that business schools are promoting. I don't think that this model should apply to aviation. In any case, when serious bugs are reported, denial or silence is NOT the appropriate response.

I've had the experience of reporting bugs to Dynon and Pocket FMS recently. Despite my grumblings about the bugs both companies took me seriously and addressed the issues.

I hope that Fltplan can step it up.

Update: looks like the map default bug and in flight lock-up bugs are resolved. Starting to become a more stable, useful app. The lack of Canadian VTA data makes it inadequate for where I fly, however.

I spent a lot time working with Pocket FMS to get VTA info and correct airfield frequency displays working on their App, which is now working well. PFMS, however, does not have CFS data. Instead they use their own airfield info pages.

So right now, FLTPlan Go is better on the ground, PFMS (easyVFR) is better in flight. If PFMS supported Canadian CFS and airport diagrams and plate display, it would be killer. If FLTPlan Go supported VTA, fixed the flightplan rubber banding bug and properly displayed VFR departure and arrival procedures from the CFS, It would be close to ForeFlight in its capability for Canada.

Since FLTPlan Go is 'free', I am hoping for the best.

Snowflake 06-30-2014 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vlittle (Post 893119)
Update: looks like the map default bug and in flight lock-up bugs are resolved. Starting to become a more stable, useful app. The lack of Canadian VTA data makes it inadequate for where I fly, however.

Canadian VTA's have been in the app for a few weeks. They're in the downloads section. The only downside is that they are an "overlay" that has to be turned on each time you start the app. The VNC's load by default, the overlay selection isn't remembered between uses.

Quote:

If FLTPlan Go supported VTA, fixed the flightplan rubber banding bug and properly displayed VFR departure and arrival procedures from the CFS, It would be close to ForeFlight in its capability for Canada.
One down, two to go. :)

Bevan 06-30-2014 11:46 AM

Well, its encouraging to see that they are trying and improving.

Bevan

vlittle 06-30-2014 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake (Post 893142)
Canadian VTA's have been in the app for a few weeks. They're in the downloads section. The only downside is that they are an "overlay" that has to be turned on each time you start the app. The VNC's load by default, the overlay selection isn't remembered between uses.


One down, two to go. :)

Well, so it does. You can also zoom in very close now.

vlittle 06-30-2014 08:05 PM

And, as of this afternoon, flight plan rubber banding is working.... Fltplan Go is rounding into shape.

vlittle 07-01-2014 09:01 AM

Unfortunately, many or all small airports are missing from the database. They are in the paper copy of the CFS but not in FLTPlan Go's version.

Example Duncan BC or Delta Airpark BC. GRRRRRRR.

What's the point if you still have to carry the CFS? These guys are annoying. Yes, I updated the database and I am displaying all runway lengths.

Snowflake 07-01-2014 11:56 AM

It seems that they are taking the airport location info from some database that only includes airports with runways a certain length or longer (or maybe it's paved only). The old US DAFIF database was like that, because it was military-oriented and only had airports in it that their aircraft could land on. Delta didn't qualify, and despite Duncan's resemblance to an aircraft carrier I guess it didn't either. :)

The thing that gets me is that they clearly have access now to the CFS and the Charts, through some official NavCanada channel. But they can't figure out how to get the procedures pages for the airports included with each airport's CFS page. It's all right there. They probably have to extract the page sets manually, NavCanada probably just gave them a single PDF for the CFS.

Norman CYYJ 07-01-2014 06:39 PM

They seem to be using the same data base that GRT has on their system, small Canadian airports are missing. Went to Alert Bay today and it was missing on GRT but was in the goflplan.

Funguy 07-26-2014 10:01 AM

Not bad for free
 
I loaded it on an older Nexus 7. It looks pretty good for a free program. Still missing smaller airports... Seems reasonably snappy on older hardware. Gotta go flying!

vlittle 07-26-2014 10:53 AM

It has improved since my first review, but the lack of airports is a problem, the difficulty in getting the VFR Procedures info and the lack of a time stamp on the map weather overlay are problems. Editing a flight plan is still buggy.

Still cheering them on, but still not over the goal line.

Canadian_JOY 07-27-2014 02:17 PM

I still haven't figured out how to do flight planning with this tool. To say it is non-intuitive would be accurate. It has worked well here using AIR5000 VNC chart and the Ottawa VTA as an overlay.

I'm not sure why but a couple of weeks ago the VNC just disappeared and I had to reload it. I've also loaded IFR approach plates. Compared to Foreflight with its nice blinking blue geo-referenced airplane symbol on the approach plate, FltplanGo still has a ways to go.

All that having been said, having a FREE program with Canadian charts is a huge bonus. Now if only some of us can figure out how to use it for flightplanning on the go... I still can't figure out even the simplest of things like a "direct to" function.

Also, on smaller screens like my Nexus7 it would be a huge improvement to have the side menu bar disappear after a fixed time in order to display more map. That menu bar takes up a large percentage of the available display space and could easily be replaced by a tap zone to pull up the menu or even a small, dedicated menu button.

Canadian_JOY 07-27-2014 02:28 PM

Just did a quick check on a nearby airport, CYPQ. Last year it officially added runway length to go from 5000' to 7000'. In FltPlanGo the airport is listed as having the longest runway length of 7000', yet when you hit the "runways" tab it still shows 09/27 as being 5000x100', and unlit. Both of these pieces of info are patently WRONG. When clicking the "Open CFS" button it shows there is no CFS entry for this airport.

I don't know about you, but 7000 feet of pavement is a pretty major airport. I don't know what source of data FltPlanGo is using but either that source is very much out to lunch or the algorithm controlling which airport data to import from the CFS needs more than just a minor tweak. At this point I'm afraid I'll have no choice but to continue carrying that big ole' brick of a CFS!

JimS 07-27-2014 05:24 PM

Also, on smaller screens like my Nexus7 it would be a huge improvement to have the side menu bar disappear after a fixed time in order to display more map. That menu bar takes up a large percentage of the available display space and could easily be replaced by a tap zone to pull up the menu or even a small, dedicated menu button.[/quote]

On my Nexus 7 there IS a button for hiding the side menu.
I would like to see a ETE to your destination displayed along the bottom of the display ( where the groundspeed is)

Program is getting better. One thing I discovered today is when you need to update maps/charts/etc. select downloaded files and all the items you have downloaded will show and you can update them all with a single tap instead of selecting each sectional,AFD/State approuch plates etc.

Funguy 07-27-2014 06:39 PM

Went flying
 
Went flying from home base to Meaford and back so in a good mood and finding it hard to complain 😀. I'm cheap and old enough to be really good with paper charts. But this was pretty impressive for free software and 100 bucks of hardware. I wouldn't depend on it or use it for planning but really a good bump for situational awareness just using the moving map. If they could get all the airports in the database and the CFS, it would be a huge improvement but not complaining today...

Snowflake 07-27-2014 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadian_JOY (Post 901690)
Just did a quick check on a nearby airport, CYPQ. Last year it officially added runway length to go from 5000' to 7000'. In FltPlanGo the airport is listed as having the longest runway length of 7000', yet when you hit the "runways" tab it still shows 09/27 as being 5000x100', and unlit. Both of these pieces of info are patently WRONG. When clicking the "Open CFS" button it shows there is no CFS entry for this airport.

We're clearly in a transition period, for NavCanada and for apps in general. Traditional legacy software databases were based off of the US DAFIF database, which only held airports that were paved and greater than a certain length... It was intended for military use, so a short, private, grass strip wasn't something they'd care about. The DAFIF database stopped being made available a few years ago, and other sources have cropped up, although how complete/accurate they are is always left to the user to verify.

Still, it's a little odd that FltPlan Go, who clearly have access to NavCanada's map data, either aren't getting access or aren't making use of the access to the airport data at the same time.

I didn't go back and check when my data source was updated, but I do show Peterborough as having 7000x100 and lighted: http://www.100ll.ca/info.php?home=CYPQ

Funguy 10-03-2014 07:35 PM

CLA4 now available
 
Just checked the latest update and my home airport is now in the database though still does not have a CFS entry. Small step in the right direction...:)

Snowflake 10-04-2014 10:07 AM

It seems to use multiple databases... I can enter some of the smaller airports now and find them in the "airports" section, but if I enter them as part of a route it won't find them. Some have CFS pages. So it continues to improve, and I expect it'll get there eventually.

More of an issue for me right now is that some of the airports have procedure pages in the CFS. You can get the airport pages, but the procedures aren't included, they're usually on the pages preceeding the airport entry.

vlittle 10-04-2014 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake (Post 922012)
It seems to use multiple databases... I can enter some of the smaller airports now and find them in the "airports" section, but if I enter them as part of a route it won't find them. Some have CFS pages. So it continues to improve, and I expect it'll get there eventually.

More of an issue for me right now is that some of the airports have procedure pages in the CFS. You can get the airport pages, but the procedures aren't included, they're usually on the pages preceeding the airport entry.

The procedures are downloaded in a separate document, by province. It's not searchable so you have to scroll through to find the airport.

Not a good user interface, but things are gradually improving.

Canadian_JOY 10-04-2014 03:02 PM

I think I must either be incredibly stupid (highly likely) or this software is incredibly flaky. While I sit here at home with wifi access I download the charts I want (Canada Southeast and Canada Northeast, Montreal, Toronto & Ottawa VTA's). Great, all downloads complete, everything is happy.

Then I go to the airport, turn on my Nexus 7, boot up FltplanGo and it can't seem to find any charts. I switch over to Avilution and it has the US chart which I haven't updated in ages, but it's there.

What in tarnation am I doing wrong?

Norman CYYJ 10-04-2014 04:20 PM

Go into maps and turn on use down loaded maps only.


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