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-   -   RV-10 rudder trim (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=111989)

ClarkieSr 04-16-2014 07:07 AM

RV-10 rudder trim
 
I'm a rookie at RV building and I was wondering if it is worth the effort to add rudder trim on the -10 while I'm building the empennage. If so what is the best system? Cable actuated or elect servo?

ScottSchmidt 04-16-2014 07:11 AM

Check this out too.
 
Here is another thread with some info.
http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...ht=Rudder+trim

NovaBandit 04-16-2014 07:54 AM

There is also an option for a spring bias rudder trim for the RV10:

http://www.aerosportproducts.com/ruddertrim.htm

I don't have it (yet) but is has a few advantages over the cut tab trim (no cutting of the rudder, no additional wire runs, keeps the rudder from flapping around in light wind, light weight, simple install.)

rleffler 04-16-2014 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NovaBandit (Post 871568)
There is also an option for a spring bias rudder trim for the RV10:

http://www.aerosportproducts.com/ruddertrim.htm

I don't have it (yet) but is has a few advantages over the cut tab trim (no cutting of the rudder, no additional wire runs, keeps the rudder from flapping around in light wind, light weight, simple install.)

I have it installed and totally agree with what Ed has stated.

Wayne Gillispie 04-16-2014 08:42 AM

Mine cost $1.92 + tax...3/8" X 1/2" balsa stick velcroed to tunnel. Installed between rudder pedal tube and framework below seat. Cut a half moon shape on one end. Used only in cruise and removed for descent. Easily breakable if necessary. Yes, I know it is too simple and cheap.

I TIG welded tabs on my towbar to install as a rudder gust lock.

Mike S 04-16-2014 08:44 AM

Welcome to VAF!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ClarkieSr (Post 871557)
I'm a rookie at RV building

Tom, welcome aboard the good ship VAF.

I installed the electric setup, with a cut in tab vs the add on hinge tab. I am pleased with it, surprising how effective it is considering the small size as it relates to the overall rudder.

If I were to build another plane, I would do the same.

Pretty sure others with different trim systems will have a similar feeling about what they are using.

My suggestion----------pick one and go with it, whatever seems best to you.

ClarkieSr 04-16-2014 11:44 AM

RV Builders in Central FL
 
I'm new to RV building and have started work on the -10 empennage. I would like to know if there are other builders in my area. I live in The Villages, FL 32162.

ClarkieSr 04-16-2014 11:46 AM

Thanks. I'll do just that

stamper 04-16-2014 09:27 PM

Hey Ed if I remember right I thought you bought the control approach rudder pedals and if so the rudder trim from aerosport won't work if I am thinking correctly.

NovaBandit 04-17-2014 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stamper (Post 871810)
Hey Ed if I remember right I thought you bought the control approach rudder pedals and if so the rudder trim from aerosport won't work if I am thinking correctly.

Good memory!

You're right, that it won't work with the stock Aerosport components. Their rudder trim works with a pair of arms that are bolted to the top of the van's rudder pedal cross bars, and the trim box pulls those top arms towards the rear of the plane with differential pressure to a pair of springs.

This video explains it better than I do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ4sEGL8As4

The problem with the Control Approach pedals and this system, is that my pedal crossbars are nested inside each other, so there is no good place to mount the Aerosport trim arms. The one thing these pedals do have is the two downward facing arms inside the tunnel, where the rudder cables attach. My plan is to either fab up some arms extending upward from these rudder cable arms, and attach there, or run a pair of pullys or cams off the firewall, and have the trim springs pull the downward facing arms forward.

It's kind of weird to explain without pictures, but does that make sense? The part from Aerosport I'm interested in is the trim box itself. I'm going to be on my own for how it actually attaches to the pedals.

colestopp 07-05-2014 07:26 AM

-10 rudder trim
 
I am also a rookie. We are currently awaiting delivery of an RV10 Empennage and this was my first question as well! Reading some of the excellent build websites I see rudders being built early on and people cutting chunks out of them. I am thinking 'EEK!', I don't want to be doing that at an early stage! So rudder bias looks like the perfect answer to me. But then I see another post saying it does not work with....what exactly? In what circumstances can you not fit this simple bias system? We want to have an IFR aircraft ultimately. Does that have any bearing?

rleffler 07-05-2014 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colestopp (Post 894779)
I am also a rookie. We are currently awaiting delivery of an RV10 Empennage and this was my first question as well! Reading some of the excellent build websites I see rudders being built early on and people cutting chunks out of them. I am thinking 'EEK!', I don't want to be doing that at an early stage! So rudder bias looks like the perfect answer to me. But then I see another post saying it does not work with....what exactly? In what circumstances can you not fit this simple bias system? We want to have an IFR aircraft ultimately. Does that have any bearing?

The Aerosport Products rudder trim works just fine. The problem that some builders run into when installing the trim as an after thought are too many devices contending for space under the panel.

The trim requires a straight shot from the rudder bars to wherever you mount the control. If you take that into account as you lay out your panel and harness, there isn't an issue. Just ensure nothing extends below the sub panel perpendicular to where you mount the control box.

N941WR 07-05-2014 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colestopp (Post 894779)
...Reading some of the excellent build websites I see rudders being built early on and people cutting chunks out of them. I am thinking 'EEK!', I don't want to be doing that at an early stage! ...

Welcome to VAF!

Some of the trim systems I see are simply to rivet on a section of piano hinge to the trailing edge and mount a servo in the rudder.

Try using the search function and see what comes up.

Here are a couple of good threads on the subject:
http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...ad.php?t=64320
http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...ad.php?t=23591

colestopp 07-05-2014 10:04 AM

rv10 rudder trim
 
Thanks! We have a slightly different system in UK in that changes from standard have to be approved. I have now discovered the no one in UK has chopped a bit out of the rudder, so that is not a sensible option for me. It will be rudder bias or nothing in our case!

CharlieWaffles 07-05-2014 10:16 AM

Other than climbs and flares, my plane flights straight so I havent found a need for a rudder trim. I think most people that want/use one are because they are worried about holding right rudder for extended climbs. I really dont notice it.

Mike S 07-05-2014 10:52 AM

Welcome to VAF!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by colestopp (Post 894779)
I am also a rookie.

Stephen, welcome to VAF:D

I did the cut in tab in the rudder, servo driven and controlled with the Cooley hat switch in the stick grip. Works just fine, and I would not want to fly without it.

Others have used Geoff's spring bias system, and feel the same about it.

Choice is yours, do what makes you happy.

Good to have you aboard.

colestopp 07-05-2014 03:26 PM

rv10 trim
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlieWaffles (Post 894822)
Other than climbs and flares, my plane flights straight so I havent found a need for a rudder trim. I think most people that want/use one are because they are worried about holding right rudder for extended climbs. I really dont notice it.

Thanks for that too, and the link to your build site as I had not seen that before!

N427EF 07-05-2014 06:05 PM

Spring Bias System
 
Maybe this will work for you.
It works very well for me.
Vans Flap motor or other linear actuator mounted on a rail.
One spring is fixed the other is actuated for and aft.
Controlled via a relay deck and connected to buttons on the stick.
A trim servo is not strong enough and actuator travel is too short.
Side benefit: No need to cut up the rudder and spring tension keeps the rudder from flopping around. This is only true for "light wind" conditions.








flion 07-06-2014 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlieWaffles (Post 894822)
Other than climbs and flares, my plane flights straight so I havent found a need for a rudder trim. I think most people that want/use one are because they are worried about holding right rudder for extended climbs. I really dont notice it.

Actually, I want it more for extended slow flight. I plan to fly to Oshkosh when mine is finally completed and I just know, with my luck, I'll get stuck behind a Cub. ;)

douglassmt 07-06-2014 08:46 PM

+1 for Aerosport Rudder Trim
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by colestopp (Post 894779)
I am also a rookie. We are currently awaiting delivery of an RV10 Empennage and this was my first question as well! Reading some of the excellent build websites I see rudders being built early on and people cutting chunks out of them. I am thinking 'EEK!', I don't want to be doing that at an early stage! So rudder bias looks like the perfect answer to me. But then I see another post saying it does not work with....what exactly? In what circumstances can you not fit this simple bias system? We want to have an IFR aircraft ultimately. Does that have any bearing?

If your -10 is like most, you will need a little rudder trim in cruise and it can vary as you use/switch tanks, change aileron trim, etc. I used Geoff's trim system because it is simple, inexpensive, and it works. I flew without any rudder trim for a few dozen hours before Geoff produced his long-awaited product. I set it initially with some slight right trim (of course) and rarely move it more than 1/8 of a turn, just tweaking it slightly in flight. Remember, keep it simple. It doesn't need any metalwork, circuit breakers, carving on the rudder, motors, relays, or hinges. Oh, and did I mention that it works?

colestopp 07-07-2014 03:01 AM

RV10 rudder trim
 
This was my first post here and it obviously works, so thank you to all for some great responses.

MauleDriver 07-09-2014 07:13 AM

I considered adding rudder trim and mocked up a spring bias design I had seen on a completed '10. I ended up deciding to install it post first flight.

Three years and 460 hours of cross country flying later, it will never go in because I don't need it.

It's a high performance plane that requires a good kick at the start of the takeoff roll - trim plays no role in that I'd venture.

During full power climb, and there's no reason to do anything else, some right rudder pressure is required. I use the AP for most climbs most of the time. Trim could eliminate the need to rest your right foot on the pedal.

During LOP cruise (I range between 155 and 165 knots at 8k-10k), so little right rudder is required that system friction and the carpet on my tunnel allow me to set the rudder and fly feet on the floor, hands in lap. Interestingly I know that one flier has a little loop of velcro or something that they lay over the cable during cruise to add just enough friction to allow feet on the floor cruise. That's truly KISS.

During high power cruising (ROP, <7k, 170knots) some right foot is definitely required. Since break-in, I just don't do this but many do. Trim would be useful here.

During descents there's usually a lot happening on an IFR clearance so I fly with my feet on the pedals even when using the AP.

So obviously I choose not to have rudder trim. It's useful but superfluous at the same time if that's possible. My calculus is that's it not worth the time and effort. It doesn't add lightness or simplicity. It could be cool to build/install/have.

Wayne Gillispie 07-09-2014 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MauleDriver (Post 895918)
I considered adding rudder trim and mocked up a spring bias design I had seen on a completed '10. I ended up deciding to install it post first flight.

Three years and 460 hours of cross country flying later, it will never go in because I don't need it.

It's a high performance plane that requires a good kick at the start of the takeoff roll - trim plays no role in that I'd venture.

During full power climb, and there's no reason to do anything else, some right rudder pressure is required. I use the AP for most climbs most of the time. Trim could eliminate the need to rest your right foot on the pedal.

During LOP cruise (I range between 155 and 165 knots at 8k-10k), so little right rudder is required that system friction and the carpet on my tunnel allow me to set the rudder and fly feet on the floor, hands in lap. Interestingly I know that one flier has a little loop of velcro or something that they lay over the cable during cruise to add just enough friction to allow feet on the floor cruise. That's truly KISS.

During high power cruising (ROP, <7k, 170knots) some right foot is definitely required. Since break-in, I just don't do this but many do. Trim would be useful here.

During descents there's usually a lot happening on an IFR clearance so I fly with my feet on the pedals even when using the AP.

So obviously I choose not to have rudder trim. It's useful but superfluous at the same time if that's possible. My calculus is that's it not worth the time and effort. It doesn't add lightness or simplicity. It could be cool to build/install/have.

You are right on the money.

BobTurner 07-09-2014 11:52 AM

+2. Same here, although I needed a trim wedge on the rudder to get the ball centered in cruise, feet off.

Ivan Kristensen 07-13-2014 05:04 PM

Aerosport Rudder trim
 
After a hundred hours or so of flight time on my RV-10 I installed the Aerosport Rudder Trim system. As mentioned in an earlier post it is simple, inexpensive and is relatively easy to install in a finished airplane. I had been looking for a spring bias system as it gives the added benefit of preventing some rudder wind damage when parked tail into the wind. Now with 500+ hours on the airplane I will say that this system works as advertised and I would recommend it to anyone.

rdamazio 12-17-2015 02:15 AM

For those who used the flap motor as the actuator - I'm curious if Van's part number for it (ES 85615-10) is actually the same as this product:

http://cad.actuator.com/product/line...ar-actuator-1?

If it is, I'm also wondering if anyone has tried using the one with the position sensor instead? The specs are nearly identical, but tought I'd ask.

Thanks
Rodrigo

woxofswa 12-17-2015 10:24 AM

I have a spring bias system (blue skunk) that is okay, but don't really use it much.

My understanding is that Dynon is working on an integrated yaw damp system that will also function as trim. Might be interesting. I didn't read this whole thread so apologies if someone else mentioned it.

One thing I have noticed is that with 3 people on board, you can really feel which side of the aircraft the third person is on. My airplane seems happiest with the heaviest person on the right side of the aircraft.

bill@fusion4.net 12-17-2015 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NovaBandit (Post 871568)
There is also an option for a spring bias rudder trim for the RV10:

http://www.aerosportproducts.com/ruddertrim.htm

I don't have it (yet) but is has a few advantages over the cut tab trim (no cutting of the rudder, no additional wire runs, keeps the rudder from flapping around in light wind, light weight, simple install.)

I have a different (discontinued) spring bias rudder trim, and am very glad I installed it. Much more so for the help with the rudder flapping in a light wind than for using the trim itself. I have not touched the trim knob in 9 months, but it really helps during the fuel stop to not have to put rudder locks in.

I would do it again for sure.

hillc95 12-18-2015 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClarkieSr (Post 871651)
I'm new to RV building and have started work on the -10 empennage. I would like to know if there are other builders in my area. I live in The Villages, FL 32162.

While not "next door' by any means....I am in the Jacksonville area and I will be ordering my first kit next month.


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