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-   -   Why pick an RV-14 over an RV-9? (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=109331)

PCHunt 08-05-2014 01:07 AM

Mr. Nail, ...... meet Mr. Hammer! :D

You only left out "Pride of Ownership". Some folks just gotta own their airplane, even if they only fly 60 hour per year.

Renting just ain't the same!

But you are "Spot On" when you say cheaper to buy than build. That's what I did. Happy Camper.



Quote:

Originally Posted by smokyray (Post 904086)
Mike,
I ask my customers 5 questions when thinking of building or purchasing an RV:

1. How many hours per year do you envision flying? (If less than 100, don't buy, or build))
2. What is your "no BS" budget? (Partnership an option?)
3. If 4 place, what percentage of your flying will all 4 seats be filled? (Is it worth another 100 grand for 1or2 times a year?)
4. Can you wait 5 years to fly, if you build?
5. Will your spouse fly with you? (RV3 an option?)

Right now a good RV4 or Six can be found for under $50 grand. You can't build one for that and they are a solid value. I have fitted my 6'6" F16 bro Chuck into my RV4 with careful fitting. Any RV6 can carry big people with the right cushions and seat adjustments. If you plan weather or lots of cross countries, I say buy a ticket. RV's are sportplanes. That said, my RV4 made 12 US Trans cons in the 10 years I owned it.

I think you could be very happy in the right used RV, and at a much lower cost.
My dos centavos...

V/R
Smokey


jswareiv 08-05-2014 05:22 AM

It's only Money
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by smokyray (Post 904086)
Mike,
I ask my customers 5 questions when thinking of building or purchasing an RV:

1. How many hours per year do you envision flying? (If less than 100, don't buy, or build))
2. What is your "no BS" budget? (Partnership an option?)
3. If 4 place, what percentage of your flying will all 4 seats be filled? (Is it worth another 100 grand for 1or2 times a year?)
4. Can you wait 5 years to fly, if you build?
5. Will your spouse fly with you? (RV3 an option?)

Right now a good RV4 or Six can be found for under $50 grand. You can't build one for that and they are a solid value. I have fitted my 6'6" F16 bro Chuck into my RV4 with careful fitting. Any RV6 can carry big people with the right cushions and seat adjustments. If you plan weather or lots of cross countries, I say buy a ticket. RV's are sportplanes. That said, my RV4 made 12 US Trans cons in the 10 years I owned it.

I think you could be very happy in the right used RV, and at a much lower cost.
My dos centavos...

V/R
Smokey

Hey Smokey,

I met you at SNF a few years ago when you were flying your rocket. I was with my friend Dale and we did a little formation flying from your base to SNF. I was in my RV7. You are using way too much common sense here. You are leaving all the emotions out of it, which is why all of the avionics people are making money. Do we need dual screens when a six pack will do, no. But we want it. Do I need an expensive car, when a cheap one will do? Does everyone buy a car with the best gas mileage, no, it's a personal thing. When I bought my 7, I ended up replacing so much of the stuff in it, because it wasn't what I wanted. I didn't build the 7 so I couldn't technically do anything to it. Kids are out of the house and I wanted a hobby. What better to do than to build an airplane, just the way I want it. Now, I have never attempted anything like this, so I had to find something in Van's offerings that was easier. Even though I am only 5'8", the shoulder room in the 7 was tight. I wanted a little more room in the baggage area for my hunting gear. The -14 seems like a good fit. Financially, is it the smartest decision in the world, frankly, I don't know. However, that's why I work, to pay for my hobbies. I can't take it with me. And, I'm really enjoying the process of building my own plane and the pride of ownership. So when someone asks me on the ramp, if I built it, I can say yes! And tell them where every little flaw is and why I did this or that. I put some numbers down, just guessing on the finishing kit, instruments, (G3X Dual Screens), nice paint and I think I will be somewhere around $120K. Crazy, right? But that's O.K., if that's my budget, my dream and my hobby. It keeps me off the streets. Hope to see you again, we had a blast.

M McGraw 08-05-2014 05:26 AM

Building versus buying
 
The statements that buying is cheaper and faster are true. However, one of the purposes of E-AB is education. I chose to build for the education. Even though I have had an Airframe certificate for thirty years I have learned a tremendous amount during my build. I have spent countless hours in my hangar enjoying the build process and increasing my confidence. My youngest son has learned a tremendous amount. He is now better at fabrication and riveting than I could have ever imagined. There is no way such an advanced knowledge of the aircraft mechanicals cannot increase his flying confidence. My wife comes out to the hangar in the evenings to see the days progress and hold a bucking bar or pound a few rivets. Does she desire to build the entire aircraft, no way! However, she does enjoy being part of the adventure and she does understand the aircraft better than the one we have owned for 17 years.

So.... Was a -14 the best financial decision? No. Have I owned aircraft since I was 23 because it was a sound financial choice? No. Building and owning an aircraft is a choice we have made because aviation is our hobby. We just don't buy new cars.;)

Addendum: which is better a -9 or -14? Dude, your wife is letting you build/get an airplane... Be happy!:)

Jerry Cochran 08-05-2014 03:32 PM

1200 hrs to build. Sure.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by diamond (Post 849274)
Would love for that person to start a thread and give the rest of us tips on how to build so efficiently.

... and then there are all the rest of the hours such as: Scratching head time, staring at plans time, reading the manual time, calling support time, biting nails time, posting questions here time, trips to HF time, explaining to spouse time... Ah, the memories...

Yes, and all those "extra" hours are very much worth it... Just don't buy into the 1200/40=30 weeks myth.

Fire away, I'm ready.

woxofswa 08-05-2014 04:01 PM

Someone who wants to build an aircraft to own forever should just build their heart's delight and forget what it costs. If you have to pencil it out carefully, you really can't afford and or justify it.

However, those who are concerned about what the craft will be worth after it is built should strongly consider the RV-10. A quality 10 that is built "economically smart" can easily return 50-60% more than the cost of production in resale. It still might be minimum wage for your time, but it is a positive number.

The reason is simple. The 10 appeals to sport plane enthusiasts, but it also has cracked the barrier into a whole different market of consumers who want what the legacy builders used to provide them before prices got out of hand, or perhaps said differently, a poor man's Cirrus. For decades, four place legacy GA airplanes outsold two seat models by several factors, even taking into account the trainer market which is different entirely.

I sat with my 10 at OSH and spoke with numerous individuals who would admire a pretty 7 or 8, but would never consider that aircraft for themselves but could see themselves climbing out of spamcans and into a 10. Several had come to the show only to look and consider a 10, not to build, but to buy. The sportplane market and the traditional four seat, non trainer, general aviation serious cross country machine market are quite different and the 10 crosses over into both sides and with time is making more and more inroads into the traditional side which should only mean good things for rv10 values in the future.

jpmbgood 08-05-2014 08:50 PM

Swayed by "buy"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jpmbgood (Post 903652)
I just finished reading this thread. It is super. I sat in the -9A and -14A at AirVenture last week (my first visit; fantastic event). While I did not know the -7 and -9 are the same fuselage, I am concerned it will be a return to Cessna 172 days when my Civil Air Patrol velcro stuck to the shoulder of the other crew member (please someone confirm my fear of the narrowness of the -9 in this vein is baseless). I also was not enamored with the -9's visibility out the front (I'm concerned I won't be able to see the ground out the front in the flair; is this assessment incorrect)? However, the -14 width was pretty nice, and the cargo space behind the seats is MUCH nicer than the -9. I don't care about acro anymore (flew fighters in the AF and am tired of all that). I just want a nice cross-country aircraft for me and my wife, so lateral space and volume for cargo are an issue and the -10 is TOO big (I don't need all that extra space); hence my concern about the -9 in these regards. My other concern about the -9 are any build challenges. I'm not all that concerned about -9 performance differences (speed, range, climb rate), because I don't see a meaningful difference among the -9 and -14. However, I am concerned about cost to operate the -9 vs -14 and cost to build, so I would appreciate any feedback on this (as well) and any meaningful handling differences in the two aircraft (I couldn't fly either at AirVenture because of my schedule and the unfortunate crash Thursday AM). :confused:

Thanks to all who replied (I read them all). I want a safe, low cost to operate, comfortable, two seat a/c I can tailor to my needs that my wife and I can take cross-country about 6-12 times a year. I prefer to stay under $100k but would be willing to go to ~$130 if the -14 was SIGNIFICANTLY better WRT my stated general interests, above. MO gas is DEFINITELY preferred, since the cost to operate on 100LL is much higher. Smokey, your five-fold buying guide and safety points make sense. All points offered about "buy" also resonate and is what a friend, who built an RV-8, mentioned to me a couple of months ago (i.e., if you want to build an airplane then build an airplane; if you want to fly an airplane then buy an airplane). Part of my interest in musing "build" is because I think I will know the a/c better if I build and I think the adventure is worth the trouble. The point made about all the extra time scratching my head makes me pause and reminds me of another friend that said he probably built his -7A twice considering all the mistakes he made. I'm not getting any younger, so perhaps buying is the way to go. Smokey, I'm not sure I understood your point about considering factory built alternatives; it's still an option for me. Bill R, where's Triple Tree and when?

jpmbgood 08-05-2014 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpmbgood (Post 904449)
Thanks to all who replied (I read them all). I want a safe, low cost to operate, comfortable, two seat a/c I can tailor to my needs that my wife and I can take cross-country about 6-12 times a year. I prefer to stay under $100k but would be willing to go to ~$130 if the -14 was SIGNIFICANTLY better WRT my stated general interests, above. MO gas is DEFINITELY preferred, since the cost to operate on 100LL is much higher. Smokey, your five-fold buying guide and safety points make sense. All points offered about "buy" also resonate and is what a friend, who built an RV-8, mentioned to me a couple of months ago (i.e., if you want to build an airplane then build an airplane; if you want to fly an airplane then buy an airplane). Part of my interest in musing "build" is because I think I will know the a/c better if I build and I think the adventure is worth the trouble. The point made about all the extra time scratching my head makes me pause and reminds me of another friend that said he probably built his -7A twice considering all the mistakes he made. I'm not getting any younger, so perhaps buying is the way to go. Smokey, I'm not sure I understood your point about considering factory built alternatives; it's still an option for me. Bill R, where's Triple Tree and when?

Sorry, I meant to ask...does anyone have experience working with Aero Sport Power engines?

N941WR 08-05-2014 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpmbgood (Post 904449)
... Bill R, where's Triple Tree and when?

Here you go: http://www.tripletreeaerodrome.com/t...ree-fly-in.php

rbibb 08-06-2014 05:43 AM

Sorta like asking which sister do I want to date vs. marry. The one with the "Born to Ride" tattoo or the one baking cookies?

Choose wisely.

rmartingt 08-06-2014 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smokyray (Post 903872)
Why the 14? Many of us were hoping Van would go the other direction and offer a "Onex" design, motorglider or whatever, affordable to the masses. Owning an airplane is already an expensive proposition, why add more cost?

I wondered that myself. It doesn't seem like there would be much of a market for the -14, or at least not enough of one to recoup the expenses of making a brand-new airframe and doing all of the prefabrication we see with that airframe. But if they get decent sales from it, it's a good decision from a profitability standpoint. And I think that's the kicker--the engineering and development costs won't go down much with a smaller, "affordable to the masses" airplane, the production and materials costs won't go down much either... but the retail price would, equating to a much lower (if not nearly zero) profit margin. And that's not counting sales it might "rob" from other, more profitable models.

Besides, the lower end of the market is getting filled by other companies. They may not have the Van's name attached and the kits might not be as complete as we've become accustomed to with the newer Van's models, but affordable single- and two-seat sportplanes are out there.



Quote:

Now all things being equal pocket book wise, I'm wondering why anyone would build a 7 (vice buying a 6) an 8 (vice a Rocket) 9A, (vice buying a Grumman Tiger with 2 more seats) 14 (vice buying a Bonanza)or even the RV10(vice buying a nice home) when they can buy a similar "mission" certified or classic RV, ready to fly, cheaper...

So, why...?
[/quote]

For me, things weren't equal pocketbook-wise. I don't have a big lump sum of money ready to spend, and I refuse to go into debt to get an airplane. That leaves either saving up for several years, or building and paying as I go. Having built before, I know what's involved and I know I like doing it. Plus, by building I get to set the airplane up exactly the way I want it.

The only thing that's giving me any anxiety is the future problem of finding an engine--I have notoriously bad luck with buying used things (cars, tools, guns, appliances, electronics... you name it) and lack that talent of finding good deals and haggling, so I'm likely going to have to go new--to the tune of $30k+ with prop. That hurts.


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