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As a guy who's primary occupation is aviation logistics, including the financial accounting for several type/model/series of Marine Corps aircraft, I'll throw out another point to consider: These aircraft cost multiple thousands of dollars per hour to fly. The majority of that is parts and maintenance, but gas is not an insignificant piece either. With a cost per hour of $3k to $16k just for the airframe (depending on t/m/s), not including the pilot, as a taxpayer you should care about something that causes wasted flight hours or sorties to have to be re-flown. Remember, if you blow their mission and they have to re-fly it, then the gas and maintenance that got them out to the MOA and back was wasted.
I'm not saying don't fly through the MOA, but a little coordination might save their training mission and the taxpayers some dough. Every little bit helps, right? PJ Seipel RV-10 #40032 |
Thanks Bob.
Bob, as the father of my son who is the company commander of a state National Guard Apache unit, I completely support what you said. These guys are putting their lives on the line training. There are many on this forum who know this very well and some are doing this daily now. How about we just give them a bit of respect and clear skys?
I am not saying that the military guys don't have some fun now and then - but the few minutes spent going around a MOA is a pretty small price to pay to help these guys out. Thanks Bob for the comments and support of the men and women that allow us to sleep at night. Quote:
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b. There is not a particular frequency for any given MOA; the VFR sectional only lists the controlling center agency. It's been a while since I've done any VFR flying around in GA aircraft, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong; but if you are utilizing flight following then you're "talking" to someone and they should be able to give you information on the particular airspace in question. (Some MOAs are so large that their airspace may cover multiple center frequencies; so more than one freq should be able to provide you an answer). Quote:
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Be careful
Be careful answering "yes, mil pilots in a moa are on ifr"
This is certainly not always the case. |
Minimizing impact
Gents, here's some of my perspective on this topic. FWIW, I'm an F-15 pilot by trade, and I completed my RV-6 about 7 years ago. So I see this from both sides all the time. My policy: I will fly through MOAs in my RV-6 when I need to, usually the same ones that I fly F-15 missions in. The truth is, we can often use the same MOA airspace without significant impact on each other. The training mission happening in that MOA is not likely to be canceled altogether just because there is "stranger traffic" (which is what we call you when you're inside the MOA). It might have to be modified a little bit, but usually it's not a huge factor, and it's a "fog of war" factor that has plenty of real combat equivalents. Besides, the altitudes you fly in your RV are usually not "tactically relevant". Fighters, in particular, either want to be very low (500' or less) or medium-altitude (20,000-40,000') for most tactics. The reason is that 500 feet to 20,000' is the heart of the Anti Aircraft Artillery and MANPAD envelopes - not somewhere you want to be in bad guy land. In some situations, we may need to be down to 10,000', but there are few tactically sound reasons to be between 500' and 10,000'. The exception is dropping dumb bombs or strafing, but that is what Restricted Areas (bombing ranges) are for.
If you fly a standard, non-oxygen, non-pressurized 8,500' MSL cruising altitude through a MOA, it's quite easy for us to put a "floor" at 10,000' MSL and keep fighting with little to no impact. No problem. If you are up at 14,000', or even worse, cruising pressurized at 17,500' - that is much more problematic, and I would ask that you avoid doing that. All of that is from a pointy-nosed fast-mover perspective - other MOA users may have a different perspective. If you have a MOA close to your home base, it would pay to find out what kind of missions typically go on there. All Air Force bases have an airspace shop that has local community engagement as one of its missions - they will be happy to educate you. So my advice is to be below 10,000' MSL, call the controlling agency on the radio and tell them where you're going and what altitude, and fly direct. Gas is expensive, after all. Cheers, |
So think about that fresh LT that is struggling to learn a new airframe or their weapon systems, with very limited flying time due sequestration budget cuts, so that they can be well prepared to fly any mission to protect our rights.
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Jordan brings up a excellent point. I've seen the great document that Sheppard AFB put together to assist locals with understanding what's happening in their MOA.
This document can be found here: http://www.sheppard.af.mil/shared/me...120221-059.pdf I would hope and/or assume that other bases may do an equally good job at working with the local GA community. Accidents do happen. This is a small sample of mid-air incidents just from a single AFB/MOA. T-38 versus civilian climbing out of Kickapoo T-38 versus pipeline aircraft 1 mile off Runway 33 left SAFB T-38 crosses over a civilian airplane while descending out of Comer T-38 climbs for departing traffic out of Kickapoo T-38 climbs for civilian traffic at Annaa T-37 descending on VOR DME / A versus Air Tractor 2-ship T-6 formation versus Evac flight helicopter at 1500’ MSL between the T-6 pattern entry point Bridge and the Class D air space T-6 versus civilian traffic in military operations area (MOA) T-6 versus civilian traffic from Kickapoo in T-6 VFR traffic pattern shortly after T-6 entered the pattern at the town of Dean and was descending to 1500’ MSL |
Lamps, you are correct - I had forgotten about you helo guys!
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Excellent guide, I hope the other bases publish a similar document. I might add that some military training airspace is not published other than a note on the sectional. For example, the Air Force conducts it Initial Flight Screening program out of Pueblo, CO. There are about 30 training sectors between 12 and 28 DME from PUB VOR. The training sectors are only between 7000 and 8500 ft MSL, however, the students will drop below the floor to practice ground reference maneuvers. None of these sectors are published. On a different note. Congrats Bob on your son's recent graduation from Specialized Undergraduate Pilot Training. I assume your son completed Euro-NATO Joint Jet Pilot Training. What aircraft is he going to fly? Regards, |
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bob |
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