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-   -   End of the line... NOT!!!! (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=104148)

Mike S 09-23-2013 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LettersFromFlyoverCountry (Post 810051)
Heard back from the EAA medical consultant. I'm not seeing any inspiration to put up a fight in his response

I would look at the following info and see a lot of hope there. Better than 50 % chance of freedom from vertigo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LettersFromFlyoverCountry (Post 810051)
his chances for long term freedom from vertigo is somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3. Since he has only been using the device for only a few months, it is hard to know if he will be free of vertigo over the long term.

Do you have any idea what they are thinking of as "long term"-----perhaps you could establish a year history of being asymptomatic and then revisit the issue???

Buggsy2 09-23-2013 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LettersFromFlyoverCountry (Post 807691)
There are a fair number of people on my field who are doing this [flying illegal without a medical]. As my wife reminded me, the main problem here is liability if something should happen and she's left to divest to satisfy a court judgment.

Yep, I just included it for completeness. Not advocating that route. The motor-glider sounds very interesting to me, and I sure wish Vans would offer one.

bobnoffs 09-23-2013 05:44 PM

i haven't read this whole thread but i would think about getting my medical back and while it is valid transition to light sport.

Sam Buchanan 09-23-2013 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobnoffs (Post 810151)
i haven't read this whole thread but i would think about getting my medical back and while it is valid transition to light sport.

You need to read the whole thread to understand the original poster's situation. :)

LettersFromFlyoverCountry 09-24-2013 07:22 AM

Of interesting note here is the penalty I seem to be paying for aggressive attempts at prevention.

The surgery I had years ago was done when I wasn't symptomatic. But I thought it would satisfy the FAA. And here is an example of having that surgery ended up being used against my situation because symptoms came back after I had it.

Same thing with the "diuretic therapy" and the Meniett Device. Both are aimed at prevention, but the FAA consultant sees it as an acknowledgement of a problem rather than a progressive action to avoid symptoms.

As I've said before, I don't think the FAA made a particular bad call here in denying the medical AT THIS TIME. But as you can see I'm now facing answering for aggressively tackling a situation on a preventive basis.

That was a bad mistake on my part.

meloosifah 09-24-2013 11:22 AM

We just went through this a few years ago with my dad. He had an INJURY- induced stroke and is no more likely than I am to have another...but the FAA does not seem to see it the same way. However, knowing the battle we faced, he opted to not renew his medical and fly LSA - thus I became the proud owner of a J3 Cub. And he pays for the use of it by teaching me all his bush-flying Cub secrets from the great Northern Frontier. Although he always had flaps and 180 HP to work with. I have 1/3 of that...

With a disease that can ultimately have only one outcome in the eyes of the FAA (and eventually in your ability to safely operate) I do wonder why you didn't let your medical lapse and move to a -12 or similar...? Even if you win this one, every single renewal will be a battle...that's the same line of reasoning that led me to buy the Cub.

...And on what fiery comet in the far reaches of the galaxy have you been living on if you thought for even a second that the FAA is remotely interested in your plight? The FAA has as its mission statement to foster safety throughout the entire range of aviation while simultaneously doing NOTHING that could, in any way, make them look bad, in even the tiniest degree. They will not even consider allowing you a medical until such time as you are a virtually-zero threat, not to yourself or your passenger, but to bad publicity to the FAA. Consider that if you had simply let the medical expire they would have no dispute with you flying - because their name is not on it!

Don't get me wrong, the FAA does a LOT of good, but it is primarily DESPITE the FAA Overlords, not because of them. Just consider 337s and field approvals if you want another perfect example of this.

LettersFromFlyoverCountry 09-24-2013 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meloosifah (Post 810411)
I do wonder why you didn't let your medical lapse and move to a -12 or similar...?

Well, I tell you -- and I think I have earlier in the thread -- when you spend 11 year building an airplane and you've only flown it for 80 hours and you have a condition the FAA knows about and has issued a certificate for in the past, you gamble that you can get through one more time.

As I've said earlier, if I hadn't indicated on the medical form that I was taking a non-banned, no-side-effect medication, I'd be flying.

But the real point of failure was the night I was lying in bed, the room was spinning, I thought I might die and I spent time debating whether to call an ambulance, knowing that if I did, I'd probably have to quit flying.

Eventually I did.

I shouldn't have.

Snowflake 09-24-2013 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LettersFromFlyoverCountry (Post 810447)
I spent time debating whether to call an ambulance, knowing that if I did, I'd probably have to quit flying.

Eventually I did.

I shouldn't have.

And that, in a nutshell, is what's wrong with the FAA's (and I suspect Transport Canada's, as well) medical system. When someone is making medical decisions based not on whether or not they're having a medical emergency, but on whether or not there's a possibility that it might be something serious that will ground them.

Death will ground you faster.

There are two bad things that can happen to a pilot, and it's a guarantee that one of them will:
1. You will walk out to your airplane knowing it's the last time you will fly.
2. You will walk out to your airplane NOT knowing it's the last time you will fly.

It's hard to say which is worse.

LettersFromFlyoverCountry 09-25-2013 07:10 AM

The system is very much what was contributing to pilots with alcohol problems flying commercial airplanes. Eventually, airlines and the FAA realized that the key was not to punish a pilot for acknowledging a problem and losing a career (here's an interview I did with one of the NWA crew who flew drunk in one of the more famous incidents).

It's worth noting that the FAA was clear when issuing my last medical that IF symptoms returned or IF medication was changed, I was not to fly.

When my medication was changed (to add this non-banned diuretic), I grounded myself accordingly and then told the AME that I had grounded myself accordingly.

I want to believe that most pilots follow the rules, but I do believe the system is generally designed based on the assumption that they don't or won't.

I don't have a solution for that; I obviously don't have any control over those people.

But if I never get a medical back, I can at least take comfort that I was safety conscious and professional while I had one.

LettersFromFlyoverCountry 09-25-2013 08:27 AM

I don't know whether this thread will help anyone in the future or not so I apologize for continuing to update it but I figured what the heck.

I talked to the AOPA specialist today, who stresses that she's not a doctor, who says that contrary to the suggestion of the EAA "consultant," the FAA does not have a policy that if the diagnosis of Meniere's is correct, recertification is unlikely.

She also said that the paragraph in the letter of denial that offered the option of reconsidering in six months is "significant," that is not just boilerplate copy on all denials.

On the issue of using a medical device and approved medication to PREVENT future occurrences, she seemed to stress that that is not really something that gives the FAA any comfort, so there is a penalty to be paid by aggressively moving to prevent that which the FAA is concerned about in the first place.

"They are so conservative there," she said, "that they would probably feel much better if you got off the device and medication and remained symptom free for six months."

She acknowledged that all of the experts out there who are in the business of trying to tell you what the FAA is thinking on medical issues have one thing in common: They don't really know for certain what the FAA is thinking. "Nobody does," she said.

In related news, I looked up Bruce Chien's website yesterday that paying $100 up front and $50 per every 15 minutes of work thereafter is not an expense at this time which has a tremendous upside.

More as it happens, but probably not for six months.

Buggsy2 09-27-2013 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LettersFromFlyoverCountry (Post 810738)
so I apologize for continuing to update it

Please don't apologize. Your specific situation is of interest to many of us, as we consider you something like a penpal, please keep us updated. And we vicariously experience the highs and lows through your descriptions.

Sounds like a ray of hope in your last post. We hope it turns into a full, sunny day in a few months.

LettersFromFlyoverCountry 09-30-2013 12:09 PM

Just to put a final stamp on things, my vertigo problems returned last week and I've decided not to pursue any more flying.

Mike S 09-30-2013 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LettersFromFlyoverCountry (Post 812174)
Just to put a final stamp on things, my vertigo problems returned last week and I've decided not to pursue any more flying.

Sorry to hear of the re-occurrence of the vertigo.

In this case I think you are doing the right thing-----staying safe needs to be your first choice.

rv7boy 09-30-2013 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LettersFromFlyoverCountry (Post 812174)
Just to put a final stamp on things, my vertigo problems returned last week and I've decided not to pursue any more flying.

What a bummer. But, as Mike said, I also think you are doing the right thing, staying safe. I, for one, certainly appreciate your openness and candor about your situation. You certainly didn't try to sweep it under the rug and hide it.

Somehow I don't think you will go away. I hope not. :)

DeltaRomeo 09-30-2013 02:28 PM

+1 on what Don said, Bob. You know I (we) are here for you any time, and if you're ever down in the DFW area I expect a call/visit. br,dr

Quote:

Originally Posted by rv7boy (Post 812185)
snip.....I, for one, certainly appreciate your openness and candor about your situation. You certainly didn't try to sweep it under the rug and hide it.....snip


randyintejas 09-30-2013 03:05 PM

Bob, Know that a lot of us see ourselves in you sir and really feel for you situation. I think most of us can see ourselves in a similar situation. Best to you sir and thanks for all your mussing and fussing?s!

Rupester 09-30-2013 08:58 PM

I have always respected - and envied - the openness and honesty in your posts. Whether it was admitting to a build mistake or just asking for advice, your posts have resulted in my learning something valuable 9 of 10 times. For this and a hundred other reasons, you're a much bigger part of this community than you likely realize. I can't adequately find the words to express my empathy for your situation.

LettersFromFlyoverCountry 10-16-2013 05:49 PM

And yet another update:

I've been out of work for three weeks after dizzy spells returned in September. Over that time, the hearing in the left ear has continued to be destroyed.

I had a good session with my neurotologist today and while the dizziness has stopped, we've decided to consider a procedure that cuts balance information and all hearing information from that ear. This would eliminate dizziness and also what pitiful amount of hearing is left.

My priority right now is being able to work for a living, but there$s also a chance the FAA would look favorably upon this since it eliminates the chance of dizzy spells unless the disease moves to another ear. I'd have to get a special issuance, I presume, because I'd be deaf in one ear.

So all hope is not yet lost.

RickWoodall 10-16-2013 06:40 PM

Ummm
 
Hang on, so we are hoping you are soon completely deaf in one ear for life. That would be good.... kind of....:confused:

Keep us up to speed, I guess we are all pulling for that to work out so you can FLY.

Mark Dickens 10-16-2013 06:58 PM

Bob, I've been deaf in one ear almost all my life, thanks to mumps I got at nine years old. I'm 57 now. I've been flying since 1981. I passed a SODA checkride many years ago, and now you don't even need that.

Now, how the FAA looks at your situation will probably be different, but if you can get the best help from a senior AME and perhaps AOPA, you might pull this off! I wouldn't sell that plane yet!

Quote:

Originally Posted by LettersFromFlyoverCountry (Post 817137)
And yet another update:

I've been out of work for three weeks after dizzy spells returned in September. Over that time, the hearing in the left ear has continued to be destroyed.

I had a good session with my neurotologist today and while the dizziness has stopped, we've decided to consider a procedure that cuts balance information and all hearing information from that ear. This would eliminate dizziness and also what pitiful amount of hearing is left.

My priority right now is being able to work for a living, but there$s also a chance the FAA would look favorably upon this since it eliminates the chance of dizzy spells unless the disease moves to another ear. I'd have to get a special issuance, I presume, because I'd be deaf in one ear.

So all hope is not yet lost.


Stalldog 10-28-2013 06:40 PM

Bob, I've been away from the forum for a while and just read about your situation. All I can say is WOW. At least it sounds like you have something starting to work in your favor.

I doubt I need to tell you how much help you've been to me (and I suspect most of us) getting into our builds. I'm in my early 60's and in good health, but even your plight is helping me see how to handle medical situations like these. Realistically, it's not if these situations will come, but when.

Hang in there, my friend, and keep us posted on your progress. Sending my best wishes and prayers for a speedy treatment and return of your medical certificate.

acroflyrgirl 10-28-2013 08:58 PM

Catching up reading here
 
I just read this thread from the beginning. Wow! So many thoughts come to mind. I have had my battles with OKC AME's and know very well how things can quickly change in the eyes if OKC Aeromedical.

I would keep pushing, but also consider a spouse pilot option as mentioned earlier. I know it's a lot to ask of your wife, but hey she married you, watched/helped in your build, not to mention was likely your best friend over the years....maybe.

I know that life is such an awesome amazing gift, and every day I am on this planet is a great day, pilot or otherwise.

I wish you success here. I pushed in my case and with persistence and luck I am still flying.

LettersFromFlyoverCountry 11-13-2013 03:04 PM

And even more updates:

A gentleman was kind enough to send me an FAA medical examiner bulletin from 2007, detailing the woes of an airline captain with Meniere's. He eventually got it back after an injection of gentamicin, a substance that is toxic to the little hairs in your ear that wave around and, thus, send signals to your brain regarding which way is up. It kills them, and is an alternative to a more radical surgery -- a labrythinthectomy, which takes all of your hearing and balance nerves with it.

"I've been thinking about that for you," my neurotologist said to me when I emailed it to him last month, and I followed up today for a love conversation (my nursing-student son in tow) to evaluate the next course of action.

There's not a lot of hearing left in the ear, but I still would like to keep what little is still there. It's possible the Meniere's has completely burned itself out in that ear, but we don't know that and while this is not a guarantee there'll be no future episodes, it's a pretty good bet as a next step.

So we scheduled a procedure for December 4th. I've been doing physical therapy for the last three weeks to begin training the remaining ear (and eyes and other parts) to compensate. The recovery time is a few weeks, and then it takes about four months for everything to return to normal.

That starts the clock on what I presume will be a six-month period that the FAA will want without any symptoms.

So, bottom line, this seems like the best course of action now and one that the FAA may very well look favorably upon. I'll probably miss Oshkosh 2014, but I'm still hoping to fly to Cleveland for a game before the end of the season.

One other thing. I met Daniel Alvarez last year in Minneapolis, at the beginning of his kayak trek to Key West. he arrived there after 7 months down the Mississippi and Gulf. Then he decided to paddle back by way of the Atlantic Ocean, Hudson River and down via the Quetico to International Falls and Minnesota's Northwest Angle. He arrived there a week or so ago.

When I last visited with him in person, I told him I was a little nervous about flying to New England. "If you're not nervous," he said, "you're not dreaming big enough."

I've remembered that all this time.

Though we've been communicating, and while he was giving me grief for not flying, he was unaware of the reasons for it until I sent him this thread.

He sent this picture back after reading it:


I'm guessing you've heard more than enough "I'm so sorrys" and "keep your head ups" for a lifetime by now, but I thought I'd send you a picture from the Appalachian Trail. This is from the day before I finished the trail. I was walking with my friend and we see this guy walking toward us. Suddenly, we realize he has one leg and is on crutches. He's hiking the Appalachian Trail too.

I'd actually seen him before at a trail event and he had an artificial leg. It was super technical looking and had sponsor's stickers all over it, but he didn't have it with him when we saw him on the trail. I asked him about it and he told us it had bruised his stump, so he had to ditch it for a bit to let the stump heal. He got a pair of crutches so he could keep hiking. He was going southbound into a section of the trail that is fairly remote and called the "hundred mile wilderness." I'll never forget seeing him walk away on those crutches, finding a way to keep going.

Maybe you can find a way to keep going too. Maybe it means fighting like **** to get that medical clearance. Maybe it means switching to powered gliders or whatever you are able to fly. Maybe it means getting a co-pilot (I wish I could fly, I'd be there in a heart beat!). Maybe it means forgetting about flying and dreaming of something else. Who knows, but whatever it is, I'm cheering for you and if there is anything I can do to help--even if you just need to call someone up and yell at the phone--you know how to reach me.


The picture is now in my hangar. I don't yet know how any of this will turn out, but it's all a metaphor for building a plane anyway. You should read all about Daniel's journey here; it'll sound familiar.

Stalldog 11-13-2013 03:44 PM

Yep, Bob, every day is a new day, so never say never. Sounds like you've got a good plan.

ppilotmike 11-13-2013 04:22 PM

Great Story!
 
One thing's for sure: it's sometimes tragic and it's sometimes magic, but life (at least a life worth living) is always a great story! Keep on dreamin' Bob... It teaches those who've never learned, or have forgotten how.

crabandy 11-13-2013 05:16 PM

.......But I had a good life, all the way.....

mike newall 11-13-2013 05:29 PM

Message left....:cool:

Chino Tom 11-13-2013 06:06 PM

Press on Bob!

Rupester 11-13-2013 06:39 PM

All of us here will have our fingers crossed for you over the next months. If it all plays out as we would like, just THINK of the celebration we could have at OSH next year !!!! :D

TS Flightlines 11-14-2013 06:33 AM

Bob---may I respectfully request that you change the heading to read--A new Beginning-- !
Tom

Zuldarin 11-14-2013 07:45 AM

Lurking but had to say something
 
Hi Bob, I have been following your plight with a little bit of "so sorry but thank god its not me" attitude. Today when I checked in I was so very impressed, and more importantly, encouraged by your attitude and determination. Please keep pushing to get back into the sky, you are acting as a trail blazer for many of us who have those same "FAA fears".

Z

rzbill 11-14-2013 08:37 AM

Never say never.
My hopes are with you, Bob.

LettersFromFlyoverCountry 12-14-2013 03:31 PM

I had the gentamicin procedure 10 days ago. So far. So good. That is to say, the brain did not like having balance nerves in one ear killed off. After 5 days, I had a vicious vertigo attack. The neurotologist assured me this is normal and will subside as the brain, eyes, joints, and remaining good ear learn to compensate. And, indeed, I am feeling better and going back to work after a couple of weeks off.

So, in effect, I've reset the 6.month clock for seeking special issuance and feel pretty good about things. Hearing in the bad ear is gone for good, though. I'm going to need a good ANR headset.

The plane goes to the paint shop on April 15th so we're keeping hope alive for now.

Mike S 12-14-2013 03:43 PM

And dont forget to wright your state Rep.

http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/A...d=131213epilot

Vlad 12-14-2013 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LettersFromFlyoverCountry (Post 834601)

...snip the medical science...


The plane goes to the paint shop on April 15th so we're keeping hope alive for now.


Please share the paint scheme Bob. I hope I didn't miss anything.

Rupester 12-14-2013 05:52 PM

excellent!
 
Glad to hear the medical report. There's a ton of us out here pulling for you!

humptybump 12-14-2013 06:57 PM

Bob, I'm glad you continue to soldier on and have not given up hope!

As for paint, Vlad only asked because he's not completely sure what "paint" really is.

The rest of us are interested in the paint scheme as further inspiration !

LettersFromFlyoverCountry 12-14-2013 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad (Post 834618)
Please share the paint scheme Bob. I hope I didn't miss anything.

If you go to the blog and scroll down to "Own This Airplane," you can see the inspiration for it although I have not yet worked with the designers yet on the upgraded RV version.

Vlad 12-15-2013 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LettersFromFlyoverCountry (Post 834702)
If you go to the blog and scroll down to "Own This Airplane," you can see the inspiration for it although I have not yet worked with the designers yet on the upgraded RV version.


Neat idea. There is an RV in Finland carrying those green lines on polished aluminum looks great.

Mark Dickens 12-15-2013 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LettersFromFlyoverCountry (Post 834601)
I had the gentamicin procedure 10 days ago. So far. So good. That is to say, the brain did not like having balance nerves in one ear killed off. After 5 days, I had a vicious vertigo attack. The neurotologist assured me this is normal and will subside as the brain, eyes, joints, and remaining good ear learn to compensate. And, indeed, I am feeling better and going back to work after a couple of weeks off.

So, in effect, I've reset the 6.month clock for seeking special issuance and feel pretty good about things. Hearing in the bad ear is gone for good, though. I'm going to need a good ANR headset.

The plane goes to the paint shop on April 15th so we're keeping hope alive for now.

Bob,

I admire you for your commitment to getting your medical back and as one who's been half deaf most of his life and a pilot for some 30-odd years, it's not a big deal...yes, get a good ANR headset and you will be great! I can't wait to hear (so to speak) that you're back in the air! You deserve it!


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